Thoughts on imprinting

[Small_Stars]

On another chat board I frequent there was a few people that were of the opinion that imprinting foals, especially mini and pony foals, totally ruins them. That you are better off with a foal that has never been messed with since imprinting makes foals into pets and they develop all kinds of bad habits. But rather foals should be taught right away to get out of your space.

What is your thoughts on that? Does anyone here imprint their foals at birth and if so, how do you keep them from turning into a spoiled brat from it later on? Do you think that never handling the foal till after weaning is better?

They had said that miniatures are smarter and so are harder to teach good manners to than bigger horses once they've learned to be bratty and that a miniature untouched is worth more than one that's been handled since birth.

Please, I'd like your opinions on that and your techniques with your foals.

Thanks

 

[Small_Stars]

I kind of answered my own question. I did track down a thread from a couple years ago here on that very topic and I see I was thinking of handling as opposed to true imprinting. I guess I have never seen true imprinting done so when it was said that it made them bratty, I was thinking handling.

 

[disneyhorse]

I have not noticed minis being any "smarter" then saddle horses or draft horses... Every horse regardless of size seems to be an individual when it comes to personality and brains...

But the quality and technique of the " imprinting" is a huge factor.

That said, I prefer a more unhandled horse because I know what a horse's instincts are and I like more respect from a horse. I prefer to gain respect and confidence from an unsure horse, rather than have to discipline disrespect from a horse with less fear of me.

 

[targetsmom]

We haven't had many mini foals but we got lucky this year and had 3 live healthy ones. We do not actually imprint them, but they ARE handled a lot, including by our 4-Hers. They are only handled for short periods of time, and we stress consistency. So far we are VERY pleased with the way they are turning out. They are 8 months old now and we and the 4-Hers can lead all 3 of them, groom, clean feet, tie, etc. including leading over bridges and other obstacles. We plan to show all three of them in 2013.

 

[Small_Stars]

targestmom, would mind explaining what you mean by consistency? You know, we've had full size horses for years and I never gave training and things a second thought. Big fan of Clinton Anderson. But we got mini's and I find myself re-thinking everything. We have a mini that we got strictly as a companion for the other one and she has some issues that bug me. One is crowding me when you lead or constantly forging ahead when leading. The other is pinning her ears back when you feed her and then when trimming her back feet, when you let go of her foot she holds it in the air and then kicks the air 2 or 3 times. We've been working on the leading by doing circles every time she tries to get ahead and on the crowding, I just poke her. But on the pinning her ears at feeding time, what we were doing was chasing her out of her stall and not letting her come back to her bucket until she came back respectful, but while it has helped some with the pinning ears, I've noticed when you go up to pet her, she's more prone to toss her head now. No, we've never hit her, we just wave our arms and tell her to GET! I don't want to make her jumpy, but I can't have her being disrespectful either. Honestly, the pinning ears thing wouldn't bother me since we just put the bucket down in her stall and walk off, but letting it slide seems that it could bleed over into other areas. Anyway, I know that she was a big pet of these people's when she was little even be held a lot and dressed in fairy wings and stuff. LOL Anyway, she was more a pet than a horse and I'm wondering if some of these issues come from that and I don't want to make that mistake with the foal we're expecting from our other mini.

 

[disneyhorse]

The very first thing to do is treat them exactly like a big horse.

 

[Small_Stars]

Am I doing the right thing with this other little mare? If you had one that was doing the same things, how would you handle it?

 

[Renolizzie]

Caution - Newbie writing

You know, my little guy was not pinning his ears back but he did have his ears back when I went to feed him. Crowding a bit, too.

Anyway, on the crowding into my space, I have been gently shooing him away a bit and he is improving. Sometimes I ask him to back, wait for the ears to come forwards and then throw his hay. All very gently. Haven't had a need to get too firm or loud I say something "Oh no you don't, you have to wait."

Then, when he turns around to look at his food, I wait until his ears come forwards and then I throw his hay or give him his pellet food. The first time took several minutes and I only got one ear forwards but it is working to be patient and wait until his ears come forwards.

It didn't really bother me in some ways about his ears facing backwards. He hasn't been evil or bad or overly pushy but I decided there is no need to reward him for being a sour puss. Just seemed like a bad habit.

PS - He is not a foal. He is ten years old

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, let's look at this from the horses point of view.

You have given a feed to an animal that has, in all probability, had to fight for her feed all her life, so far.

So, she pins her ears back and prepares to fight for it.

You chase her out, away from her feed and make noises at her, and she is supposed to understand why you are cross???

What part of that makes sense?

I think you are very lucky she has not kicked you- she obviously has a good basic temperament....

SO...instead of meeting aggression with aggression, go into her stall when she is eating and just stand beside her talking to her. Keep it simple, nursery rhymes or poems, anything you know well and can recite. If she pricks her ears, raise you voice slightly and praise. When they go back again return to reciting.

It will take a couple of days, but since she is not offering to kick I would not say it will take her long to work out you aren't hurting her, you are just a crazy lady who likes to stand beside her when she eats!!

With the foot shaking, again, she isn't kicking you she is just trying to work out if you need kicking, so I think you have a nice mare there, who has been messed up a bit.

Instead of letting her foot straight down, have someone at her head, as you let go the foot say her name quite sharply, get her attention and then click her and give a a small treat. By this time she will have put down her foot and forgotten about waving it around!

If you have to do this all on your own (I do) just make sure you have a treat in your hand before you let go the foot and reach up and give it to her. Then handle all the feet, giving a small treat of some kind each time- don't tell her off if she waves the foot, ignore it, only click (you don't need to click with a hand clicker you can use your tongue) and treat if she doesn't wave the foot.

Good Luck, the others are quite right to say a Mini is just a horse, treat it the same.

*ARGH you would think I could spell right with spellcheck wouldn't you??*

 

[madmax]

I did not technically 'imprint' my foals, (full imprinting can be overdone) but did immediately handle them from birth , rubbing them partially dry at foaling, feeling them all over (head, mouth, legs, etc) while checking for their health status. Sitting in the stall while they get their legs.....they get used to humans. They were handled lightly every day, but never turned into a 'pet' but loved on, with scratches in their favorite places. Bad behavior was not tolerated, but no hitting, a loud 'boss mare voice'. Learning to walk on a lead to me is a very important lesson. Sometimes you get a smarty pants foal, but mostly all my foals turned out well with good horsey manners and friendly. Ones that I raised that I still have I can control with my voice and/or a string around their neck or a strand of mane. Stallions are on a lead for safety around around other horses tho.

I am not a fan of chasing the youngster away-a few lessons with the horse alone in a confined area of walking to where the horse is and claiming where he is standing so that he moves away is basic standard training and shows who is boss. Also, the tying up with halter safely (keep yourself in area) for about a half hour at a time, horse must be quiet and accepting, then go 'rescue' and praise.... this is all standard for learning manners. Like you stated, ears up is good. Disney is right, a mini is still a horse and treat the same as a big horse, they can still hurt you with bad behavior. I do not agree with some mini trainers that want their babies completely unhandled; well, lessons learned late are lessons learned hard.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think what they are saying is, like me, they would rather have a horse that has not been handled than one that has been handled badly.

I do not agree with imprinting- what you are describing is basic care, something I think we all do, but true imprinting causes HUGE problems. Having done it inadvertently with an Arab filly we bottle raised (well, bucket raised...) I can tell you it is no joke having half a ton of adult, bolshy, horse trying to "play" with you because it does not interact properly with other horses. Shall NOT make that mistake again!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

targestmom, would mind explaining what you mean by consistency? You know, we've had full size horses for years and I never gave training and things a second thought. Big fan of Clinton Anderson. But we got mini's and I find myself re-thinking everything. We have a mini that we got strictly as a companion for the other one and she has some issues that bug me. One is crowding me when you lead or constantly forging ahead when leading. The other is pinning her ears back when you feed her and then when trimming her back feet, when you let go of her foot she holds it in the air and then kicks the air 2 or 3 times. We've been working on the leading by doing circles every time she tries to get ahead and on the crowding, I just poke her. But on the pinning her ears at feeding time, what we were doing was chasing her out of her stall and not letting her come back to her bucket until she came back respectful, but while it has helped some with the pinning ears, I've noticed when you go up to pet her, she's more prone to toss her head now. No, we've never hit her, we just wave our arms and tell her to GET! I don't want to make her jumpy, but I can't have her being disrespectful either. Honestly, the pinning ears thing wouldn't bother me since we just put the bucket down in her stall and walk off, but letting it slide seems that it could bleed over into other areas. Anyway, I know that she was a big pet of these people's when she was little even be held a lot and dressed in fairy wings and stuff. LOL Anyway, she was more a pet than a horse and I'm wondering if some of these issues come from that and I don't want to make that mistake with the foal we're expecting from our other mini.

I'm a fan of Clinton Anderson too and my training methods are all based on Downunder Horsemanship. It does not matter if you own a draft or a mini they are a horse, just different size. If you don't have it already I highly recommend you look into getting the Fundamentals DVD series. It sounds like you could use some help when it comes to the training with these minis. What you are describing is defiantly disrespect and just don't plain know what the heck they are doing. If you follow the exercises thru this series the problems you are describing will take care of itself on its own because once they start respecting you and you are consistent with your training. What is consistency Clinton explains it well. If you are inconsistent with your training it will be much harder for your horse to understand. If you follow the steps and keep it the same every time your horse will pick up on it a lot quicker. Also it's better to work them say 10 min a day 5 or 6 days in a row a weeks vs an hour every other day or once or twice a week. It's important if they learned a new lesson to go back and do it again the next day to improve. Otherwise if you miss several days you might as well reteach the lesson. That's why especially in winter I look at the weather to make sure its ok to work outside that week if I'm starting a new horse.

This year I had 2 new horses and I taught them both the fundamentals and they completely did a 180. They were very pushy, one even tried to run thru me when I tried to back her, one could not load in the trailer, just didn't know much period, even when it came to leading. Teaching them to lead was the last things on my mind. I went thru the exercises and when it came to teach them to lead, guess what no one was pushing into me like they first were, I could lead them on both sides at a walk and trot, and the one who couldn't load in the trailer I didn't train her to go into the trailer she just went right in. Once they learned the Fundamentals I trained them to drive and it was a breeze. They were in the show ring driving just 2 weeks of driving training. They were respectful. I've had 2 horses that I trained all the way from Fundamentals to Advance and are Top 10 winners at AMHR Nationals in halter obstacle because of this program it works. Also to get a horses respect is to move that horses feet and make him work!

Now back to your original question, imprinting I sure think it works as long as its done right. Clinton imprints his foals and he uses the method by Dr. Robert Miller. He also quickly teaches his foals to be respectful from the get go, and I think thats a lot of the peoples problems is they treat these foals like babies but they quickly forget these cute foals are going to grow up at bigger horses. Clinton has a Foal Training DVD series that you can also look into. He shows how he works with a foal that was imprinted right at birth vs one that wasn't imprinted at all and their are differences. I think the one that was imprinted was much easier because he wasn't fearful of humans. But IMO before I go breed I would get your current problem worked out now and really educate yourself in how you want to train your foal.

 

[ohmt]

I absolutely do not imprint as I would rather my mares have their bonding time with the foal. We get in and get out as fast as we can. BUT, we handle our foals daily and almost all of ours will run up for scratches. I have met a lot of mini people who show who don't like any contact with their foals. They prefer them on the wild side because then they are better for showing. Would you do that for a full size horse? I don't get the logic at all and I would prefer a horse that has been handled with proper manners and teachings.

It can be done daily without the horse getting pushy as long as you are training correctly.

 

[targetsmom]

I don't follow Clinton Anderson or Parelli, or any of those trainers - what I mean by consistency is probably similar though. After over 50 years with horses, mostly big ones, I know what behavior I will accept and what I won't. The instant the horse does something unacceptable, they are reprimanded appropriately. No "Oh isn't that cute, he is trying to (fill in the blank)". Some are quicker to learn that others, but as long as you are consistent in what you accept and what you don't, they should get it eventually.

The issue about feeding: Protecting their food is a natural instinct from ancestors living in the wild. I have a healthy respect for natural instincts (spooking in certain circumstances is another example) and those situations are treated a bit differently. I do not try to cuddle our stallion when he is eating! But our other minis are expected to be approached and walked by safely when they are eating, because I need to walk by them to feed others. I also will not reprimand or punish a horse who is clearly (and justifiably) frightened of something. The trick is in knowing when they are truly scared and when they are taking advantage of you.

 

[Small_Stars]

Thank you for the answers.

I'm no newbie to horses, just the minis. I will try the suggestions on the pinning ears thing. She has never tried to bite, but I probably wouldn't put it past her eventually and yes, all their ponies were fed together and she was used to guarding her food. So, I understand the "why" of why she does it. I wouldn't put it past her to kick if I walked behind her when she eats, but since she eats in a stall that isn't something we've had to deal with. We had talked about taking her out of her stall to feed her. She's not protective over her hay, only at grain time does she display that behaviour. I have not in any way addressed the kicking in the air when we trim her feet, I just ignore it and move on.

Thank you again. We'll approach it a different way and see if that helps. Our other mini is very mannerly, but she was a show horse and not strictly a pet. In some ways she's much easier to handle, but the other one is much more people friendly. They both have their own individual temperaments.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

You have taken this mare out of a not so good place and you are giving her a well thought out rest of her life- that earns you a lot of brownie points in my book!

The very fact that you have bothered to come on here and ask these questions earns you quite a few more.

I can see you are thinking this through so I don't really have any fears for the mare.

I would not take her out of the stall to feed unless her behaviour deteriorates, as she feels safe in there and you are trying to build on that feeling. I would work with her, with the feed, in the stall.

Obviously your safety comes first though, so just watch yourself.

And keep us posted.

 

[Small_Stars]

I have been seriously sick with the flu, so haven't felt like doing much, but this morning I took her feed into her stall, as opposed to dumping it in her pan over the gate and then stood with her and brushed while she ate. She pinned her ears, but didn't offer to bite and then was pawing the ground incessantly. Nervous I suppose. But I stood there and brushed her for awhile and then finally just didn't feel good enough to stand there any more and had to come inside. She never really did relax, but I think she might over time with enough patience. I just want to make sure I'm doing the right thing. I know a lot of people, including our vet, that take a dim view of ponies in general and see them as having unpredictable and nasty temperaments. I guess that's why I'm more hyper aware of her actions. I had an Appy that laid his ears back when you fed him, but I never paid attention to him and just pushed his head away from me. Our other mini stands back about 6' or so until you dump her feed and walk off and then she comes up to eat. I prefer that. LOL

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I actually prefer a horse that will stand quietly by the feed bin and let you put the feed in and then be happy to have you stay there- I like my horses to be OK with me being anywhere around them, so I would prefer the mare that pins her ears but stands her ground to the one that stands back as that infers timid to me and I like bold horses, they are easier to predict, especially when young children are around.

I have never seen ponies to have nasty temperaments, but then I live in a country that is, literally, knee deep in pony breeds of all sorts, so I am spoilt for choice. Ponies and horses do have different attitudes to life, it is true, but, in the end, as with everything, you get back what you put in. If a pony is correctly raised, with love and discipline, it will be as good as any horse, any day.

 

[Small_Stars]

I I don't think there are quite as many ponies here and honestly, in my area, a huge chunk of them aren't worth much. They seem to fall into the same category as backyard breeders on dogs. There are a ton of people breeding average to poor quality ponies with even poorer temperaments and so they've developed a bit of a reputation. Specifically where I'm at it's all cattle ranches and ranch horses. Ponies aren't thought to be good for much, but as I get older, I much prefer them. We had big horses and did a lot of riding until the arthritis in my knees just couldn't stand it any more. We sold our horses to good homes where they would get used, but I so missed having the horses around and my little girl is a bit of a horse nut. The mini's seemed like a nice compromise if I can teach them to drive. I have broke horses to saddle, but I have never taught a horse to drive and honestly, I'm a bit nervous about it. I have been trying to find a trainer near me that trains mini's to drive, but so far I haven't been able to find one.

 

[chandab]

If you can find any trainer of driving horses, even full-size, they should be willing to help you with the minis (they are still horses). I too am in ranch country, and most don't get my attraction to minis; their loss, not mine.