The sooty/smutty gene

[miniwhinny]

First I want to say - I don't know what color modifier is going on with Ozy. Ozy is NOT ...can't repeat this enough NOT NOT NOT a dun...duns NEED a dun parent and Ozy doesn't have one. It's getting old being told he's a primitively striped dun when I know he's not. He does have smutty/sooty going on.

Dr. Sponenberg said that (quote) Ozy was marked like the most wildly marked dun without being a dun and told me to contact the brindle registry to see what they had to say. At the time (3 years ago) there were two registries...Anita Cascabel(sp) with one told me he was a brindle like the one is Australia and the other told me he wasn't. Researching brindle and it's many characteristics does hint that it's related to the smutty which Ozy has. Or maybe he's a primitively marked sooty bay...who knows

He looks like the brindle mini in Australia. He has stripes of unknown origin all over his shoulders, patches like dun patches all up his neck and stripes going down his rib cage.

What does interest me is how the smutty gene modifys other colors. Like seen in Ozy

This is a picture of a colt that my friend bred.

These pics don't show the true extent of his dun factor. He has HUGE fishbone markings coming off his dorsal! His dam was a dun with just decent dun markings. His sire was a dun with decent markings but BOTH parents appeared to carry smutty and this colt was the result....stripes, brindle markings on his upper legs and shoulders, neck patches, cobwebs, fishbone, zebra stripes on his legs...everything.

I had a dun filly with THREE dorsal stripes...one down the middle and one on each side...her dam was a smutty red dun. Her dorsal stripe was 4 inches WIDE!

I'm fascinated by the markings resulting from smutty including brindle and primitive stripes.

So - I've posted pics of Ozy in other threads...does anyone else have a wildly marked horse which seems to be influenced by the smutty gene?

 

[albahurst]

Oh, I was looking forward to seeing Ozy, but this isn't him? Will you be posting pics of Ozy soon?

 

[miniwhinny]

I just can't seem to capture his markings. He's a dark bay and the marks are black. This is an older shot of his neck markings

and this picture was taken yesterday...it's hard to see but you can just see the stripes coming down over his withers.

and this is an older picture showing his neck and shoulders again...

then for anyone not seeing the other post this shot was taken yesterday of soe of the lines onn his shoulders.

and his countershading dorsal

His markings for sure aren't bold like Riverdances filly. I wonder if he was a lighter color like buckskin they'd be way easier to see.

I don't know what's going on....but he's got an awesome disposition even if his color is a bit "off" hahahahaha.

 

[wildoak]

That's pretty neat. I have a regular smutty buckskin stallion, nothing exotic like that but am anxious to see what he will produce.

Jan

 

[albahurst]

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. I enjoy seeing all these different patterns.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

MW I believe you clipped him as a foal??

Did the markings appear on the skin more clearly??

Riverdances filly only shows the markings when clipped, so the markings do not, in fact, show more clearly on whatever background colour she turns out to be, as they were unapparent until clipping.

 

[madmax]

Rabbitsfizz, in my experience with my brindle mare, this has not been entirely true.

Being that she is a black roan, at birth she appeared solid black, soon, parting the hair I could see grey roots, and confirmed to me that she was roan. At first foal clip the stripes were apparent, such a shock there!. They remain no matter the length of the hair coat, whether clipped or in summer coat. There is an exception with the heavy full winter coat when the black (or base color) takes over the entire coat as roans are known to do.

When clipping in summer coat the stripes are not as vibrant, but very much apparent, and in a few days when the clip recovers, they are very strong.

Of course this is only my experience with my mare. Foal coats are not always the true base coats, for example I have had grulla foals with grey coats that looked a lot like the color of silver dapple foal coats.

 

[stormy]

These threads are getting very interesting. I also have a stripped horse, very hard to see though except when the sun catches it just right. I have brought it up on the forum before and was basically told this pattern is not possible...now I see it is. My mare is a chocolate dun and appears to have stripes well down her body like zebra stripes...I am eagerly soaking up all this new color information!

 

[miniwhinny]

Stormy..do you have pictures or a link to your horse? Do she have sooty in her enhancing the dun? That chocolate may be from a sooty expression over dun.

Rabbitsfizz...I did clip him as a yearling but I only have a cheep pair of clippers that are really only good for getting off the long hair. I am left wondering what he's like under the hair so I may have to get some close clipper blades.

One other thing I have noticed is that just like the descriptions of brindle Ozy's darker hair also shows up as a different texture as well as color.

I may have to register him as brindle too. The brindle registry said that brindle was the only explanation for his markings given that he wasn't dun and does carry sooty/smutty.

This is him in his foal coat just a week or so old...you can't see much at all but those bars over his shoulders are so thick and bold that they showed from day one. You can see some darker color in there though...coming off his topline.

I remember Larry pointing out his dark shoulder bars the day he was born which struck me as odd knowing he wasn't a dun (and I'd been breeding duns for years)

 

[stormy]

Will do my best to get some pictures...have a striped stallion too but more like the bay pictured. His mom was a smutty palomino.

Again is hard to show in a picture unless the light is just right!

 

[miniwhinny]

Oh I see even in the light the pics taken in...stripes going down neck right....they are like the brindle marks on the mini in Australia.

http://www.elcascabel.com/brindlepictures2.html

 

[stormy]

Yes with heavy shoulder bars and a dorsal...and just to add to the fun his sire is a blue roan, mom smutty palomino. He shows no roaning though.

 

[miniwhinny]

Dr. Sponenberg wrote this article. What I find interesting to these horses that are coming to light is that - they obvioously have the sooty modifier re-arranging the sooty into stripes that's pretty easy to see but they arent as easy to see because of the horses background color. Sue C. posted in a different thread somewhere that seeing things on horses where there isn't much contrast is obviously harder than when the body color is light. That's exactly what Sponenberg is saying here. You have to have the genetics but you also have to have a background color that makes it easy to see.

It's all just so interesting.

 

[Sue_C.]

That is very interesting. So to beleive what he is saying, this "brindle/sooty" gene might very well be inheritable, whereas the chimera, although "brindle", is not. Wish I had one of each to breed together.

Would love to have the chance to breed two "sooty brindle" like horses and see what you get, as well.

 

[miniwhinny]

That is very interesting. So to beleive what he is saying, this "brindle/sooty" gene might very well be inheritable, whereas the chimera, although "brindle", is not. Wish I had one of each to breed together.

Would love to have the chance to breed two "sooty brindle" like horses and see what you get, as well.

Oh...I've already got my eyes on Joannes filly ( I noticed she's for sale) and a possible romantic interlude with Oz

Can you imagine that baby ( haha my luck...no stripes right hahahaha)

 

[Sue_C.]

This so all so interesting. I have a sooty/smutty bay stallion, and one of his colts was born with a totally solid black butt. He was like a "reverse Appaloosa".

I always thought THAT was "cool"...now I see these guys...amazing.

Oh yes, if you could breed them together, that could really get interesting.

Yeah, watch you get a solid chestnut or something. Actually, speaking of chestnut, I haven't seen pictures of a chestnut brindle. I shall have to go back to the brindle site and take a look, it has been a long time since I have visited.

 

[Joanne]

I can see how the light foal hair would hide color and that Riverdance's foal would retain those markings when it gets it's new coat. Especially as the base of that foal is so light.

That is what makes Riverdance's horse and the markings on Shauna horse so spectacular. They are both on a light background and the color pops out!

We have had pintos here as foals that had lots of dots under their hair, they only showed themselves after they were clipped. But these patterns remained.

Like miniwhinny, the foals I previously posted have a different, coarser texture to the black hairs. The back stripe hairs stand up straight as a newborn, and the effect is like a high / low carpet with the black areas significantly above the base color.

Both the horses I previously posted are homozygous for black, and they have a strong black base. Capturing the color is a challenge. I was taking the photos in sunlight for my website, not truly to capture the stripes.

I would respectfully suggest that those of you that are trying to capture these markings either take the photos in the barn out of the sunlight (like Riverdance did), or take them in the shade.

Early morning or late in the day, not in the 10 am - 2 pm period when the sun is at it's peak, also may work better.

 

[Shari]

That is very interesting. So to beleive what he is saying, this "brindle/sooty" gene might very well be inheritable, whereas the chimera, although "brindle", is not. Wish I had one of each to breed together.

Would love to have the chance to breed two "sooty brindle" like horses and see what you get, as well.

A Checkered pattern?

LOL Sorry.... I could not help myself.

It is very interesting the info coming to light about Brindles.