The big pit bull debate!

[Buckskin gal]

That description of the pit bull temperment was not minie, it is a description from an owners site and being honest about it, in her experience. Yes, the pit bull is known to go after prey and you have been fortunate to not have to expeience it. Perhaps the pitbulls over here are more agrrssive than what you have there...hope so. I certainly hope that Americans aren't defiant about laws which are for the protection of our children and pets. If someone was hit hard enough in the pocket book I think they would think twice about breeding for dogs who by nature are agressive and harmful to others. And I am not picking on pit bulls because I have already said I include "other breeds" for those who can be dangerous. Giver me an American bred Border collie any day over a pit bull and I would feel much safer for my family and pets. Have never heard of a border collie killing a child and wish I could say the same about a pit bull. Mary

All three of those traits apply equally well, possibly better, to that well known killer breed the Border Collie.

I have yet to see a Pitbull that can be left watching a shadow on the ground and still be there an hour later- THAT is "prey drive"!!!

There have been a lot of good and considered arguments on this thread- and people have, on the whole, not become too intense or "personal" about the breed.

At the end of the day though it is irrelevant whether or not the Pitbull is as some people perceive it- I can assure you that banning the breed will do no more in your country than it has in mine.

Eight years into the Dangerous Dogs Act there are, if anything, MORE Pitbulls in England than there were before the ban, as it is now also seen as an act of defiance to own one, so it has a certain "romantic allure" that it did not have before.

Are there Pitbull attacks??

One that is verified, in eight years- about the same as there was before people became hysterical about it.

And the attack that cemented the DDA being brought in was done by two ROTTWEILERS!!!

 

[kenna]

Americans not defiant? You think a law, banning a breed, will stop the irresponsible people from owning pits? Because we all know how no one sells drugs, prostitutes, drinks and drives... there are laws against that, after all.

We have a pit mix. We also have 3 dobermans, a rat terrier, and a beagle/cocker. The most dog aggressive of them? The beagle/cocker mix. The most food aggressive of them? The beagle/cocker mix. The highest prey drive? The rat terrier. The most likely to bite one of us? The rat terrier (excluding our rescued previously severly abused dobie who still has some trust issues). Our current pit mix is our first of the breed but not the first we've known. I never really had a strong desire to own pits, like was mentioned, all the bias and trouble with insurance, etc, was too much for me to think about. I've gotten to know the breed though, and man, I just LOVE this breed. It's like no other i've ever met. Incredibly gentle with the family, SANE, sensitive, smart. They take management, yeah, but our rat terrier has had MANY more problems with fear, aggression, etc, than our pittie has. Our oldest (11 year old) doberman attacked our pit when we first got him and brought him home, and he let her attack him until we could get her off, at which point he hid behind me looking like "what was THAT?"

About this "switch" that supposedly flips. Ooookay. I wish it was possible to find out how many of those dogs that "turned" on their owners had medical reasons for it. Brain tumors, pain, etc... There was an article about a doberman who attacked his owner. Someone I know couldn't resist showing me, telling me how i'd better watch out. Another article came out later about the same dog, and guess what? They had an autopsy, the dog had some brain disease.

 

[misfitminis]

This is always a tough topic. There are many defenders of the "aggressive breeds". There is a reason why some insurance companies do not insure farms with dogs on the "aggressive breed" list. I would think that insurance companies would have studies on hand of why such lists are created. I have a friend with a very large Standardbred breeding farm. She was told that once her rotty died she would loose her insurance if she got another dog that was on their aggressive dog list.

On the topic of pitbulls. I transported a 2 year old girl to the hospital that had her face ripped off by a pitbull. To me they are good for nothing after having that experience.

 

[mininik]

Pit Bulls were bred for gameness and that is why most will go and keep going after whatever they are doing. Gameness is a desired trait in MANY breeds and is not just for dog fighting. Dog aggressiveness, while not uncommon, is not always a dominant trait as while some Pits were bred to dog fight, many others were bred to work together on livestock and wild beasts and also as guard dogs. Pits with no direction and improper care going after other dogs, animals and humans is no different than any other dog doing the exact same thing with no direction and improper care. It's just amazing to me that with MILLIONS of loving Pits out there, there are so many willing to jump on the bandwagon of banning the ownership of these too often misunderstood, mistreated animals on account of the victims of a few idiot breeders and owners.

:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

english bulldogs as well as american bulldogs are also ones who dont let go doesnt mean they have locking jaws just a tenacious personality. Same with many terrier breeds who are bred to ignore there pain if they get bit by the rodents they are chasing.

By the way Sharpei dogs were bred to fight there are plenty of dogs that are bred to fight , guard, and stay on whatever they opt to see as prey

GS and rotties and giant schnauzers and other offshoots of German Shepards also DONT LET GO which is one reason they are used in police work.

There is no changing anyones mind I have been bit by several chows as a groomer so i will always be more careful and hesitant around them due to my personal experience however i know there are just as many who have wonderful experiences with them

The answer is simple if you dont like them dont own one however like someone else mentioned.. grouping all dogs of one breed into a catagory is no different then doing so with people

 

[mininik]

http://www.fataldogattacks.com/

http://www.fataldogattacks.com/statistics.html

 

[Buckskin gal]

"3. Go into it knowing that you can't make people think what you think"

I understand your desire to defend pit bulls but please try and understand that many of us have had very bad experiences with pit bulls. And yes, seeing a child with part of a face missing is enough to turn many people against that breed of dog. I suppose with a million dogs of one breed around, it would not be so odd to find some that were agressive and some that aren't. I also understand that if you love your breed of dog you will defend it...maybe it would help to just not lump them all together, one way or another but this was is a discussion about pit bulls and not everyoine has had the same experience with them. I think any dog that is agressive and will bite or kill a child, or adult or domisticated animal should be done away with. I know what it is like to have a child bitten by a dog; it isn't a pretty picture and the scars last forever. I am glad you have a pit bull who is a good family pet so please don't be upset and think there are those of us who aren't fond of them for no reason. It isn't just pit bulls that may get mistreated...I think there are many breeds of dogs that are mistreated and that is one reason I am so against so many dogs being bred and sold to most any person who wants one. I think breeders should be responsible for the dogs they breed and if they do harm to others let them be accountable. JMHO Mary

Pit Bulls were bred for gameness and that is why most will go and keep going after whatever they are doing. Gameness is a desired trait in MANY breeds and is not just for dog fighting. Dog aggressiveness, while not uncommon, is not always a dominant trait as while some Pits were bred to dog fight, many others were bred to work together on livestock and wild beasts and also as guard dogs. Pits with no direction and improper care going after other dogs, animals and humans is no different than any other dog doing the exact same thing with no direction and improper care. It's just amazing to me that with MILLIONS of loving Pits out there, there are so many willing to jump on the bandwagon of banning the ownership of these too often misunderstood, mistreated animals on account of the victims of a few idiot breeders and owners.

:

 

[kenna]

I think because you've had bad experiences is no reason to ban it for everyone else. I've had the most bad experiences with Bichons, Labs, and Cockers. I've been bitten badly and had my DOBERMAN almost attacked by a lab, but no one's trying to ban them.

If we're going to ban something, lets ban American Cockers :bgrin (JK Cocker lovers!)

Edit: About faces being ripped up: My older sister had her face ripped open by a Dalmatian when she was younger, and my mom got seriously attacked in the face, needing stitches, by a Norwegian Elkhound.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Lets face it, dogs can be very dangerous not only to people but to other domesticated animals....and like I said before I am not picking on pit bulls but this topic was started to have a discussion on pit bulls and didn't mention discussing other breeds. I have seen and heard of too many cases of dogs biting and killing to even want one anymore. I know, I know, even a little poodle can bite but I have never heard of one doing the damage of some of the larger breeds. My youngest daughter, at a very early age was also bitten by a German Shepherd, on the face, requiring stitches. And she had done absolutely nothing to the dog ...he had been bought by the neighbors as a gurd dog for their business and they had brought him home for an afternoon and was unsupervised. I do understand the love that some peoplke have for their pit bulls but I hope they understand that we love our children and domesticated animals very very much and don't want harm to come to them also. Any one can talk about the abused and mistreated pit bulls but I sincerely hope they stop to consider the number of children and other animals that have been harmed by dogs that just are not of good temperment. Maybe it is the breeders that need to be banned if they produce animals which later become distructive to people and domisticated animals. Hopefully those who love pit bulls will help do something about the ones who do cause trouble so they earn a better reputation. ....of course that should go for any breed that have a history of beingbiters or killers. We just shouldn't find it acceptable for any dogs to be biters or killers. Mary

I think because you've had bad experiences is no reason to ban it for everyone else. I've had the most bad experiences with Bichons, Labs, and Cockers. I've been bitten badly and had my DOBERMAN almost attacked by a lab, but no one's trying to ban them.

If we're going to ban something, lets ban American Cockers :bgrin (JK Cocker lovers!)

Edit: About faces being ripped up: My older sister had her face ripped open by a Dalmatian when she was younger, and my mom got seriously attacked in the face, needing stitches, by a Norwegian Elkhound.

 

[txminipinto]

You know, there just needs to be a little common sense added in. Yes, Pits are dangerous. I've owned 2 and they were the best dogs I've ever had. But, I was RESPONSIBLE. I kept them confined at all times, socialized them, and did basic obediance. One was even deaf and knew hand signals. Pits are dangerous due to their size and their power. Their jaws don't lock; they just have tremendous gripping power and are very stoic when it comes to pain. I believe that you should have a license to own any large dog; be it a Rottie, Dobie, Pit, or any thing else that is generally bought to "guard". The responsible pit owners aren't the owners of the dogs running down the street attacking people. Don't hate the dog, hate the owner.

That said, last October my Corgi cross Josey, bit a child at a horse show. She was confined and behaving herself. I wish I could say as much for the kid. That bite was a provoked defensive attack and was over as quickly as it happened. I'm extremely sorry that I put her in that situation and this year, she'll either stay confined to the tack stall, trailer, or will stay at home depending on the circumstances. I took responsiblity for her actions yet the parents never owned up to the fact that they should have been watching their child and should have taught their child about approaching strange dogs.

Everyone plays a role in a dog bite. The owner, the dog, the victim, and the parents in some circumstances. The child who sticks their hand in a strange dog's kennel is at fault, just as the parents are. The owner who doesn't confine their dog is at fault. The individual who knownling provokes the dog every day by throwing rocks at it to get a responce. The dog is never at fault. They are only responding by instinct to their environment and you can't blame them for that.

Parents, there are 2 things you need to teach your kids about dogs. 1) Don't approach or provoke strange dogs. 2) Never ever run from a dog. Get in the fetal position covering your neck/head. Screaming alerts adults, but it also envokes the predator/prey responce.

 

[dancer31501]

This was posted on the "main" site by Susanne. I hope she does not mind me putting this up but i think this is the best info on the pit bull you can think of!!! i love my pit bulls!! here is what she said..........................

This is so true, and as long as we imagine that pit bulls are our chief threat, we live with a false sense of security.

There is an enormous difference between a pitbull owned by the likes of Lisa or Runamuk (or any of the other responsible pit bull owners on here) versus an irresponsible, aggressive owner of almost any breed of dog.

The owners of these dangerous dogs are a menace whether they own a dog or not. These are so often the ones who brag about their assault rifles and armor-piercing bullets, and are the ones who terrorize our roads, speeding tailgating, haphazardly changing lanes, refusing to dim bright beams, and otherwise using their vehicles as weapons.

Too often, these morons abuse their animals, their children, their spouses, and anyone they feel they can intimidate. And look out...they are also the ones who will sue you out of house and home should you look at them wrong. They are missing a screw or two and are lacking in certain anatomical features...and try to make up for their shortcomings through force and intimidation.

Sadly, these cretins cannot be euthanized...we are stuck living amongst them. We are forced to live defensively, protecting ourselves as we can.

Do not blame the breed, but protect yourself and yours against all animals, but most importantly against the genetic mutants posing as humans.

We would be wise, even when our children and animals are safe, to view dangerous dogs as warning signs about the people who own rhem.

I really hope she does not mind me saying this!!! but i really believe this so much!!!

 

[Shelley]

Boy I don't know.....

As a 30 year breeder and exhibitor (not of pit bulls) I understand the importance of not judging a breed by it's "cover", as well as the importance of not letting anti-dog legislation pass.

This being said, when considering a breed you also have to remember the original purpose of the breed as well as it's traits. For Pit Bulls, this would, to me, be the tremendous strength of it's jaws.

This is a true story that happened to one of my friends recently.

She is 40-something, lives with her mother, shows dogs, and is an award winning author of dog books and articles. Competes in conformation, obedience and agility. Very knowledgeable about dogs in general.

Her and her mother adopted two stray pit bulls awhile back, became very attached to them. These dogs were very loved and capably taken care of.

A month or so ago out of the blue one of pits attacked her gorgous young Saluki bitch (imported) with NO provocation. This was a puppy that had grown up with the pit bulls. It clamped down on the poor thing's throat, and nothing my friend or her mother could do would loosen the grip of those powerful jaws. The Saluki passed out, let loose of it's bowels, and my friend and her mother could do nothing as the pit bull flung the limp body about and guarded it. My friend finally spotted a small marble table and brought it down on the pit bull's back, that was the only thing that would make those jaws release the poor Saluki.

Miraculously, the Saluki did survive, however it was very traumatic for all and my friend was bitten during the episode. She is now suffering terribly with infection in the hand, and has already had most of the bone in her thumb removed, it is TBD whether she will require further surgery, as well as hospitalization with an IV drip.

The pit bulls are gone, and I didn't ask.

What if this had been a child???

I will never have one in my home. Just not worth the risk.

Shelley

 

[rabbitsfizz]

When they were bred for such purposes Pitbulls were bred, intensively and specifically to be DOG aggressive.

A dog that would not let go when told or that would attack it's owner when they entered the pit would be INSTANTLY discarded.

So you are in fact willing to condemn a breed based on dogs exhibiting traits that were never required in the aficionados of the breed and that any responsible breeder- whatever the dogs intended purpose- would immediately stamp out???

Sorry but this does not make any sense.

We cannot condemn a breed because of the irresponsibility of breeders and owners that have bred beyond the maxims of the breed standard.

By this maxim we would cull ALL Greyhounds because some of them cannot run.

You cannot and should not judge a breed by individuals that act outside the breed standard- there is, after all, little to a breed except the breed standard.

There is also the point of a lot of these dogs actually not being Pitbulls at all- some are just dogs around that size, some have been identified as Labradors and Lab crosses, some are Staffs- where do you draw the line??

This si very dodgy ground you are on and I honestly believe that the whole thing is being fed by PETA- once you have a foot in the door you can start naming other breeds- it was attempted her- as soon as the Dangerous Dogs Act was in place they tried to put GSDs Rotts and Dobes on it- but luckily the one thing working in our favour is that so many MPs own and love dogs- often of these breeds so the motion never got off the ground.

Do not believe that a breed specific law will help you or get rid of the problem.

Unlike a Pitbull it will turn on you and bite you in the backside the minute it can, it would be used by anti-dog people - and there are quite a few around- to persecute ordinary people, it will not affect in any way the thugs and irresponsible owners.

 

[mad for mini's]

I haven't read all that was posted here but agree with most that any breed of dog can and will bite. The big difference with Pit Bulls I think is not the ability to bite but when aggrevated the ability and willingness to KILL , be that another dog, animal or person. I am sure that they can be wonderful pets as long as they are managed properly by responsible owners.

Edited to add that I would never trust or own one myself.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I will say it again first in the case above the key is ADOPTED STRAY DOGS no one knows what kind of life or treatment they had previously.

ALso bottom line more then a pit bill has strong jaws, lets ban then all german Shepards, we all know any dog with jaws strong enough to hold onto a crimanal untill told to release has to be strong, ok then lets take out any rotties, english bull dogs, heck giant schnauzers, then on to Mastiffs, great danes and any off shoots of the above breeds.. by the time all is said and done.. there wont be much left as MANY large breeds allowed since they have strong jaws...

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I say again,

Pitbulls are bred to FIGHT, not kill.

Pitbulls are bred specifically to be NON aggressive towards humans.

There is no breed of dog bred to KILL other dogs.

Whether you agree with it or not (and I do not feel any of us here would agree with it) dogfighting is a "sport" the object is not to kill the other dog.

Just as with cock fighting, the object is to "match" the animals not slaughter them.

You cannot/should not/must not judge a breed by one or two random incidents that are caused by a small number of dogs bred not to the standards of the breed.

Pitbulls are no more dangerous than Rottweilers.

Let's ban ALL "dangerous" dogs, shall we??

OK how are we going to decide which are dangerous???

 

[Shelley]

ONE OR TWO RANDOM INCIDENTS???? :new_shocked:

I don't think you can compare the strength of a Shepherd's jaws to a pit bull's!

I also stated that there are good and bad examples of every breed. And, of course I know

there are many mixed breed so-called Pit Bulls. I feel badly for the Am Staff people who

have to bear the brunt of the bad association.

I also stated that anti-breed legislation is a BAD thing.

If you love them, that's fine, I love Salukis and my Cavalier and not everybody wants one of them,

either. Different strokes for different folks.

Don't get so defensive..you can have a houseful of them if you want...not my business.

But a dog that is bred to fight in my house - with my child...no thanks.

Shelley

 

[horseplay]

To me it would never be worth the chance to own any of these large dogs that were bred to protect or fight. They can have the best training the best breeding the best owner and the fact is they are animals. I will take my chances with a breed that can not take down a child or an adult and rip them to shreds or hold on until some finds a break stick

: .

I keep thinking of people who say they won't take a chance and use Quest wormer, I won't take a chance and own certain breeds, too many other choices out there that are much safer.

:

 

[runamuk]

I want to bring another direction to the topic of dogs in general.

When dogs are bred to perform a specific function and then are no longer kept for that purpose you will have problems no matter what the breed.

Terriers for the most part are killers they were bred to hunt and kill vermin of all sizes in a number of conditions. Take the terrier put it in an apartment and you are creating a scenario that could go bad.

Pit bulls can no longer perform the function they were bred for to grab and hold a peeved off bull. Then put them in an environment with people who do NOT understand the breed traits/history and again just asking for problems.

Border collies have suffered horribly due to their popularity and supposed "smartness" it doesn't do a dog any good to be smart if the dog doesn't get to use those smarts for what it was supposed to do. I have seen plenty of nutso border collies who are also aggressive and not dogs I would trust for a minute.

People need to put more effort into selecting a pet dog, many buy based on popularity, cuteness, or toughness. There is no reason to own a guard dog if you are not going to train it and manage it as a guard dog. Why own a border collie if you aren't going to give it a job? I have an aussie who used to work sheep and now I am going to HAVE to do agility or flyball or something as he is becoming bored and under utilized. Don't get a terrier and then freak when it kills your hamster.

Research is what is needed these are living beings that can and do think for themselves they are not fashion statements, or furniture.

We need real education not more bad laws.

and for the record I do not own any pitbulls or any other breed mistaken for pitbulls

: but I do own chows which are another breed who gets an unfair rap due to owner stupidity. Thankfully for chows they are not as popular as in the 80's so fewer are being bred by ill informed people. I do not want to see any breed banned as it is too easy to just add more and there are good breeders with good dogs who will be punished, and it wont stop the bad owners from owning them.

And lets not forget one of the reported fatalities was caused by a pomeranian.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Ditto! -I so areee.... it just isn't worth taking chances of having a child or something dear to us be harmed by animals that are predisposed to fighting/killing. I do think people have the right to own dogs but innocent children and pets have the right not to be bitten/killed by dogs. I hear dog owners say we should train our children to stay away from dogs and that does have merit but on the other hand, dog owners should train their dogs to stay away from people if there is a chance they could bite, for any reason. It is easy to see that some people are very passionate about their Pit Bulls and feel they are 100% safe ....but on the other hand there are those of us who are very passionate about the safety of children and harmless animals.

: Mary

To me it would never be worth the chance to own any of these large dogs that were bred to protect or fight. They can have the best training the best breeding the best owner and the fact is they are animals. I will take my chances with a breed that can not take down a child or an adult and rip them to shreds or hold on until some finds a break stick

: .

I keep thinking of people who say they won't take a chance and use Quest wormer, I won't take a chance and own certain breeds, too many other choices out there that are much safer.

: