Suggestions for trimming feet on a tricky horse

[StarRidgeAcres]

Update: Wiz got his feet trimmed for the first time in well over a year today.

He wasn't thrilled, but I spent several days talking to him about it and gently touching and lifting his feet and using treats. This morning I gave him .15ml of dorm and let him stand for about 10 mins. We did his front feet without any issues then took a break because he got nervous when we started on the back. Trimmed another horse and then came back to Wiz and slowing were able to get both back feet done. He wasn't thrilled, but it seemed to help if the farrier didn't speak (he doesn't seem to like it when he heard Howard's voice) but I just kept saying his name and talking to him and we got through it. He seemed to like hearing his name over and over. If I stopped, he immediately tensed up, so for whatever reason that seemed to help.

Yay Wiz!

Thanks for all the great advice!

For those that don't remember, Wiz is my "Kansas" gelding. He came to me with a coggins stating his name was Walter, 18 years old and a gelding. Well, he is a heck of a lot older than 18 (estimated currently to be mid-twenties or more) and he certainly wasn't a gelding.

He was gelded in early winter 2007. He is essentially blind; can see some shadows, etc. But gets around fine because he knows where everything is. There have been many times over the years that I've looked out in the pasture and thought "Well, Wiz probably won't be around much longer" as he has been difficult to keep weight on and since he's so difficult to handle, teeth floating and other basics are hard to accomplish. And he's missing several teeth - including a front one on the top that just came out (or was kicked out) sometime over the last month. Note: he was basically an untamed, wild horse when Chances first got involved with him, so this is not his fault. He's a good horse, just no real handling until late in life. At the advice of my vet, I do not give him any sedatives anymore. We did obviously for the gelding, and we tried with one float, but he isn't really strong enough to do it regularly.

So, a little over a year ago, while attempting to trim his hooves, he just decided he was done with that. He'd been difficult since day one, but he got progressively worse (I think the deterioration of his eyesight has contributed to his change in disposition) each time. So the last time (a year ago) my farrier said "no more." It was getting too dangerous for my farrier, for me and for Wiz.

Fast forward to now. Fortunately, his feet are healthy and he has pretty darn good conformation so he wears them pretty evenly. I've actually been really amazed at how he's maintained them naturally. But after a year of growth, he really is getting more toe than I think is good. He does not have any spilts, cracks, missing chunks, etc. He toes are long and he has a lot of heel. My farrier is coming Saturday and I'm considering trying it again. I generally would give .3ml dormosedan in this situation, but with the "no sedative" advice, I'm not sure what to do. I was thinking about trying .15 (which is really almost nothing in my opinion, but others may disagree), letting him stand for about 10 mins and then seeing if we could touch his feet.

Does anyone have a suggestion for me? Another way to handle him maybe that might work. I've never twitched him as he's never allowed me (where I felt safe enough) to even get the twitch on his nose. Even though he's old and blind, he is VERY determined and VERY strong! His method is to rear and strike or to kick backwards.

This all may be for nothing as I question how he is going to handle the upcoming winter and also my upcoming move. There are a lot of decisions still to be made over the next month regarding Wiz. But the immediate need is that I feel like his feet need to be done.

Ok, I'm just rambling now so I'll stop!

Any advice will be greatly appreciated. Even if it differs from my opinion/approach I'd like to hear what others think as I'm very open to new ideas and in no way think I'm the only one who knows what's best for him.

As a side note, Wiz has actually been a bit "tamer" since Spirit left the property. Although he's a gelding, he doesn't know it and although there was 16' between their fencelines, it was always very upsetting to Wiz to smell and hear Spirit.

Thanks

 

[Becky]

Have you tried Valerian Root? Though I've never used it myself, I've seen the results and it definitely has a calming effect.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Wow, sounds like you've been a great home for this guy and he's lucky to have you. I do not push one method of training but I have personally had really good luck with using clicker training for resistance issues such as this with both of my boys. It depends a little on how much time you have because although this method shapes behavior incredibly fast, you still have to have enough time to introduce the concept and build through all the little behaviors involved such as Stand. Stand quietly if I touch your leg. Stand quietly and shift your weight off the leg. Stand while I pick your hoof up a little. Hold your hoof up for awhile. Let me work on the hoof. And then repeat that with all four legs and to such a duration that he'll let the farrier work on all four hooves. That might be a couple of weeks!

What it does though is make cooperating into a game, something that the horse thinks is his own idea, and really motivates them to participate with you. I don't know how soon you need his hooves done though so you may have to go the sedation route for now. I know when my older horses have needed sedation my vet has had some sort of lighter med that works better for old guys, maybe you can ask about that with your vet. That would buy you enough time to try the clicker thing and see how he does.

Leia

 

[Reble]

Have you tried a feed bucket well getting his feet done.

Cross tie him and stand with a feed bucket.

Since he has trouble with weight,

extra treats would not hurt...

Sometimes a way to keep them calm is food.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Great suggestions so far! Thanks

I've not tried, or even heard of, Valerian root, but will google it and see what I come up with. I'm all or trying it.

The clicker training sounds good in theory but I'm having a hard time imagining Wiz "working" for anything. He strikes me as having zero interest in pleasing a person. Don't get me wrong, he knows what treats are (which he did not when he was first rescued) but I'll have to give that some thought. Certainly, with the farrier coming Saturday it won't happen prior to this trim.

Food is an interesting idea. In the past my farrier has been pretty much against feed in front of the horse when he's trimming but in this case it may make sense. I actually don't know why I didn't think of that.

It's hard to say as it may just tick Wiz off even more if we're messing with him when he's eating. But certainly worth a try. And that's something I can try on my own prior to Saturday to see how it goes.

Honestly, if his feet don't get done it won't be the end of the world, but I do think he could use it.

Thanks!

 

[Marty]

Hey Parm, someone else who has two horses from Kansas has had the same thing going on since day 1 with the feet and all and everything else in between. There is no way these horses were worked with in any way. Wild, wild, wild. They have had to be tranqualized for a trim every time as they were also very dangerous to trim. Then this year she changed trimmers and for some reason, no trank was involved. We have no clue as to why. Maybe this guy smelled good? Who knows? Can't figure it out. But he trimmed them without a trank or incident. He even got them lunging and made them a little side project for a short time. Now that farrier is gone so can't wait to see how this new one does. Oh and they also are not teenagers and turned out to be in their 20's for sure.

I suggest clicker training also.

 

[chandab]

Have you given thought to having an animal communicator work with him? Just a thought, as one might be able to get through to him that these things are a necessity and if he behaves it'll be done that much quicker. I don't know what else, as the other things I can think of have already been mentioned.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I hadn't thought of a communicator, but that's a great idea!

I'm no animal communicator, but I did try "talking" to him tonight when I got home from work. I was picking burrs out of his forelock - I swear every horse I have is covered in them right now - and telling him there are going to be a LOT of changes here very soon and I needed his cooperation to get through it. Since he doesn't see very well, he doesn't really look at you, he kind of looks past you, but he was listening I think.

With breakfast tomorrow I'm going to try briefly touching his legs/feet as he's eating and see what kind of reaction I get. My guess is that it's going to irritate him, but hopefully I'm wrong.

Thanks again. I'm really appreciate all the ideas!

And so does Wiz

This pic was taken last December.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

Honestly if his feet aren't that bad, and it creates stress trying to get them trimmed, I would just leave him be. If it gets to the place where he really needs it, then I would put forth the effort to get them done, but why put everyone thru it if it's not absolutely needed.

I'm so glad he has a good home with you!

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I know what I should do. I should try to get some pics tomorrow of his feet and see what people think. I'm so used to doing everyone constantly, that to me his feet look pretty bad, although as I said in the original post they don't have huge cracks or chunks out, etc. I've never had a horse on the farm whose feet looked like this.

But I know there are worse cases.

 

[AppyLover2]

Parmela the old fella looks great. My thought was the same as yours on the clicker training (although I love doing it)and I doubt that a communicator will be able to help cause that old man just plain doesn't care what a human says.

For those of you who don't remember or don't know Wiz was here with me for a couple of months after Kansas; but I only had a 20 acre pasture and a 1/2 acre dry lot. No place whatsoever to keep a stallion (everyone thought he was a gelding until he started beating the tar out of my geldings); and after way too many fights in my dry lot Parmela was kind enough to give him a new home. He was nothing short of a wild horse. No haltering him, leading him, etc. shoot you couldn't even touch him. I'll never forget how excited I was the first time he took a treat from my hand and the first time he let me pet him. The first time my farrier was here we had one heck of a time too.

Sorry to hear he's giving you problems but I'll always appreciate the home you've given him when I was unable to.

 

[Mock2Farms]

What about an over the counter calming supplement?? I sale a product in my store called Perfect Prep, the ladies that show Hunter/Jumpers around here swear by it. It may be a little safer then actually tranqs but take the edge off for him.. Just a thought!

 

[Eagle]

You could try a toffee apple. I coat an apple in molasses or honey and put in the fridge or freezer to be quick until it goes hard. Make a hole from one side to the other and pass some string through. Then tie the apple in front of him but make it just a little hard. I usually make a few so I can practise first. Let him try the day before so he knows yummy it tastes.

Good luck

 

[Bess Kelly]

I'm of the opinion that if the horse will talk with the animal communicator, he will at least listen to what he is told. Now he may not like it or even want to try to understand but, if it gives even a small amount of tameness to the trimming, it could be worth it for you. We all know that he's basically afraid of each and every touch, he knows no better. The reason you can get any response is that he has learned that you feed him, have not hurt him and there is some amount of trust there. The farrier is a stranger and he feels the need to fight....add his eyesight and there you go.

MAYBE after a "talk" he would at least then allow YOU to handle his feet. Maybe file them? Otherwise, you are back at some type of calmer to help. I know you want what is best for him but, maybe his feet are not really too long for "him"......I'm sorry for both of you to have to be in this. But, he does know that you care about him, he does!

 

[Carolyn R]

God love you Parmela. You are quite the horse person, and I am sure you tried just about everything.

I always do repetition and treats. Run a hand over the leg and give a treat, repeat, repeat, repeat, touch the foot and give a treat, repeat, repeat....., lift and give a treat, and so on. I can usually get a horse typical horse to lift its foot on command with just a tap and telling them to lift after a week. However, that is a well socialized, trusting horse, not one that has gone through one heck of a past. I guess it is like clicker training with voice commands rather than a clicker.

I am sure you have tried it all, the only downfall is even if you get him to trust what you are doing and he tolerates you working with his feet, it doesn't mean he will trust someone else, which brings you right back to square one.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

This is a great thread, I'm really enjoying reading it. I'll second a communicator although there are definitely horses who hear you just fine but say "I don't care, screw you. No." Wiz may be one of those! But it never hurts to have that heart-to-heart with him, explain that you'd really appreciate it if he'd let you trim his feet as you want him to be more comfortable and that you promise you won't do it more often then you absolutely have to. Talk to him about not wanting to trank him, explain exactly what happens when he gets trimmed since he can't see, and bribe the heck out of him. Food and clicker work! Stuff him while he's getting it done!

The clicker training sounds good in theory but I'm having a hard time imagining Wiz "working" for anything. He strikes me as having zero interest in pleasing a person. Don't get me wrong, he knows what treats are (which he did not when he was first rescued) but I'll have to give that some thought. Certainly, with the farrier coming Saturday it won't happen prior to this trim.

The fun part about clicking horses like him is that they think they're working you. They can't believe all they have to do is XYZ to pull the handle on the vending machine and make that stupid human give them food!

The challenging part with his blindness would be figuring out how to introduce the clicker to him. Usually we use targeting, i.e. touching something with their nose to get the goodie. That would be harder to figure out with a blind horse but I'm sure it could be done. Obviously you'd have to use scent or sound or something. Hmm....

Leia

 

[walkermini]

God love you Parmela. You are quite the horse person, and I am sure you tried just about everything.

I always do repetition and treats. Run a hand over the leg and give a treat, repeat, repeat, repeat, touch the foot and give a treat, repeat, repeat....., lift and give a treat, and so on. I can usually get a horse typical horse to lift its foot on command with just a tap and telling them to lift after a week. However, that is a well socialized, trusting horse, not one that has gone through one heck of a past. I guess it is like clicker training with voice commands rather than a clicker.

I am sure you have tried it all, the only downfall is even if you get him to trust what you are doing and he tolerates you working with his feet, it doesn't mean he will trust someone else, which brings you right back to square one.

I know alot of people are against treats or "bribes", but this is my method also. As a matter of fact I just came in from working with a filly that has issues with her legs being handled...I got her recently, and although she is very friendly, she does NOT want her legs touched. At first she would literally try to bite me or kick if I touched her leg, not even trying to pick it up, just touch it! The first time I worked with her, I tied her, and ran my hand down her leg (keeping a close eye on her head) and as soon as she let me touch her leg without attempting to bite or kick, I said "good" and gave her a treat. By the end of that session I had her lifting her leg for a second or two. Today was the second time I worked with her on it. At first, she still tried to bite and kick when I touched her legs. She came around much quicker this time though, and stood perfectly still after just a couple times of touching her legs and treating her whe she stood nicely. By the end of the session today, I was picking up her feet and holding them until I put them down, then she got a treat. I also picked out all her feet today. Yep she did struggle to take her foot back at first, but once that lightbulb goes off that "When I stand still and let my foot be held, I get a treat" she did well. Im sure if I dont get a chance to work with her on it soon (say within a week) we will have to back track a bit but my goal next time is to trim her a little, she has a couple minor flares that I want to take off before they get too bad. Now I dont think I would try to do this with a bucket of food in front of her-she would probably get annoyed and there would be no motivation to behave for the feed.

But anyway, with Wiz'a age he is probably more "set in his ways" but just would share my experience.

 

[Reble]

Let us know how Saturday goes.

Have a chat with him just before getting his feet done, and maybe have the farrier have a little talk and let him give him a treat, if he enjoys apples, have the trimmer give it to him before starting.

Good Luck.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Update in first post. Thanks everyone!

 

[Marty]

I'm all for bribery. Feed me and I'll follow you anywhere.

Feed me more and you can certainly do my feet too!