SHOCK COLLAR for a MINI????

[ChrystalPaths]

To say I am "shocked by the idea of using correctional shock collars on a horse would be an understatement.

I have a 3 acre area invisible fenced for the brittany and it is for her safety. She would chase a sparrow 10 miles, dumb dog! Her collar beeps, the vibrates, then zaps lightly, and if it persists a harder zap and I have nothing to do with it it is just on her. Now 3 yrs later she has only beep and vibrate but take the collar off and within a day she figures out she is safe from it and takes off.

A horse, while the idea of fenceless pasture is SO appealing, wearing a shock collar is not practical as they are flight animals. When pain is inflicted they run away. So many other ways to correct misbehavior other than a shock collar on a horse. For heaven's sake.

I will agree with FairyTailGlenn, Matt must have some sort of PHD to have such vast knowlege at such a young age. If I used on on my Halley (her vice is pinning her ears but she doesn't mean it) she'd really get a vice...bitting cuz even if she didn't see me, she'd know I did it. Nope..no shocking horses. Lazy fix.

edited for spelling

 

[stormy]

I must say I can't imagine using a shock collar for general training however it is effective on cribbers/windsuckers, this nasty habit can cause some serious health issues and in the case of the horse I saw corrected using the collar, it likely saved his life.

I have seen electric reins, whips and other devices used in training saddle and halter horses...just another substitute for investing the time to do it the right way.

 

[maestoso]

In my experience, which has only been on large horses, a horse has never exhibited any of the negative "side-effects" that some of you mention. My dressage trainer uses it for her horses, and I used it on my ISH to stop weaving. He stopped, didn't develop any other bad habits, and is actually much calmer. Th weaving was an effect of boredom. But the weaving also caused stress. So now, no weaving, no stress, and he deals with his boredom by eating or playing with his jolly ball. Sometimes I would put a hand-full of grain in a water bottle(no cap) and put it in his grain dish. He shuffles the bottle around and once in a while a grain pellet or two will fall out, he would eat them, then keep trying for more. A handful of grain can provide hours of entertainment this way.

But back to the collars. I am not out to promote them, just to say that if they are used correctly, they can be effective, and have been with every horse I have seen them used on, and again, no negative effects have ever been exhibited, and no horse, in my experience, has have developed new vices. And if the horse were truly getting abused, it WOULD have developed side effects, either other vices or fear or panic, and it has not happened.

I forgot who asked but I am was not psych major, but I was a communications major, which involves many of the psych theories and I took several psych classes, though my thoughts on all of this are purely through observation. When I saw that my trainer used it, I was skeptical at first and didn't like the idea, but saw how effective it was.

I am wondering how many of you (who don't agree with the collar) have electric fencing? It provides the same idea as many of you are saying is ineffective, or in some cases, abuse. Electric fencing is certainly not positive reinforcement, nor is it a redirection of behavior. The horse, crosses the boundary, and receives a negative stimulus. Collar= horse exhibits vice, and receives a negative stimulus. Exact same thing.

I will agree though, that the collar CAN be used very ineffectively and that in order for it to work you MUST have the time to devote to it in the beginning to use it while the horse is exhibiting the behavior, not after, or in anticipation of the behavior, otherwise the horse will get confused.

And the collar does not inflict pain, I know this because I tried it on myself before I used it on my horse(who has thicker skin than me). It inflicts a small shock. It is uncomfortable and annoying, but not painful.

 

[Georgine]

I am one who wouldn't use the shock collar and also do not have electric fencing.

I am glad that you tried the collar yourself Matt, to get an idea of the pain inflicted.

After watching the guy on Americas Funniest Videos I don't think I would have the nerve.

In an earlier post I mentioned "shock treatments" for humans to help with mental disturbances.

I know a person who had the treatment and I think it was "barbaric" ........if what my Dad told me was true.

I am sorry, but I can't think of any miniature horse that would require a shock treatment.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I am sorry, but I can't think of any miniature horse that would require a shock treatment.

I have to agree with the above. I cant imagine a mini horse that would NEED a stud chain especially a full size horse one there are many things I just cant imagine needing when training a horse under 300 lbs

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

My favorite radio station does something about once a month called "shock collar kareoki" (sp)...OMG it is funny! I think that might be a better use of a shock collar than using it on a horse.

 

[ClickMini]

There is actually a very big difference between an electric fence and a shock collar. The fence delivers the correction as the behavior is happening, while a shock collar depends on the presence, action, and timing of a handler. An electric fence is 100% consistent, provided that it is turned on, and delivers the correction every time at the exact moment the undesired behavior is occurring.

Interestingly enough, Matt, this example demonstrates the inefficiency of using such devices. I bet anyone that has ever used electric fencing has noticed that if the fencing is turned off for any length of time, the horses discover the situation and the fence is rapidly torn down or damaged by horses trying to get grass on the other side. If it were to work as the shock collars are advertised, once the horses were "trained" to avoid the fence, they would never approach it again. Clearly, that isn't the case.

In your psych classes you may have heard the term "variable reinforcement." If an animal is reinforced periodically, even in the face of punishment, it can actually strengthen behavior.

My favorite radio station does something about once a month called "shock collar kareoki" (sp)...OMG it is funny! I think that might be a better use of a shock collar than using it on a horse.

Having been to a karoake bar before, I would agree with you! A most appropriate use of the tool.

 

[justanothercowgirl]

There is actually a very big difference between an electric fence and a shock collar. The fence delivers the correction as the behavior is happening, while a shock collar depends on the presence, action, and timing of a handler. An electric fence is 100% consistent, provided that it is turned on, and delivers the correction every time at the exact moment the undesired behavior is occurring.

Interestingly enough, Matt, this example demonstrates the inefficiency of using such devices. I bet anyone that has ever used electric fencing has noticed that if the fencing is turned off for any length of time, the horses discover the situation and the fence is rapidly torn down or damaged by horses trying to get grass on the other side. If it were to work as the shock collars are advertised, once the horses were "trained" to avoid the fence, they would never approach it again. Clearly, that isn't the case.

In your psych classes you may have heard the term "variable reinforcement." If an animal is reinforced periodically, even in the face of punishment, it can actually strengthen behavior.

Thank you Amy, you took the words right out of my mouth! I was actually going to abstain from typing out a reply since I have a feeling we are shouting into the wind here! OH!

 

[maestoso]

You are not "shouting in to the wind" I completely understand your point. If you'll read my post once more, you'll find that twice I stated that the collar is useless unless you have the time for it. Just like the electric fence, you have to catch the behavior DURING the behavior. With this in mind, the collar can be just as consistent as the fence. As far as "variable reinforcement" if you spend enough time at the beginning, it will not be an issue, or at least, hasn't been for me. My trainer used the method to stop her horse from pawing. She spent an entire weekend at her horses stall when she first got the collar. After the weekend he has never pawed again, or developed other habits. No, she is not in the barn all the time to view, but if he were pawing, you would see the paw marks, and there are none.

Call it abuse if you like I suppose, but Ive never seen an abused horse so happy to see their "abuser" each day when they arrive at the barn . . . . And though there is no guarantee it can be effective on every horse(there is NO training method that is effective on every horse) I have seen its success with no negative "side" effects. In all cases, horses and owners had a happy and viceless ending. Again, not promoting it, just someone asked a question, and it can be successful.

To edit this, looked at the question again.... I have only ever seen the collar used for cribbing, windsucking, weaving, pawing, and stall kicking. Ive never seen it used for aggression toward humans.

 

[mininik]

I am sorry, but I can't think of any miniature horse that would require a shock treatment.

I have to agree with the above. I cant imagine a mini horse that would NEED a stud chain especially a full size horse one there are many things I just cant imagine needing when training a horse under 300 lbs

I know this is not what this discussion is about, but in response to the above statement, I have come across several Miniatures who have NEEDED a stud chain, at least for retraining. Being attacked or dragged by a 300 pound stallion is no fun. The horses I am thinking of were dangerous in that they had been poorly handled in the past, making them nearly unresponsive or extremely overreactive to pressure. In these situations the stud chains are not used as a means to abuse the horse, but rather to amplify a movement or command with noise and pressure and an instant reward (release from pressure). As an aside, I use slip leads on all of my dogs (from 5-100 lbs.) for the same reason, even though none of them actually NEED one.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Well keep in mind that I come from a large horse background were the smallest horse in our barn was 16.1 so for me there is a difference the only thing I can say is minis are much quicker on there feet then there larger counterparts and can rear and spin and kick much faster then a large horse can even think about doing one of those things. There smaller size makes them alot more agile.

I to have had some rather rude minis over the years and I guess the fact that I am not 100 lbs helped in that I really never needed a chain (ok maybe the only time I can say being fat was helpful)

most of those times I simply turned the opposite way of the horse he hit the end of the lead and realized I was not there and turned around. (much like teaching a dog to heel) I have never had the issue of truly being drug by a mini even a ill mannered B size one but then again I am not as thin as you are Mininik so when one of us hit the end of the lead it has been me that comes out on top. Raven however not so much she has done the flying behind like a kite thing once or twice in her life

and for those that come at me I found a stud chain doesnt really have the effect I prefer and deal with it in other ways but again that is just me we all have our own prefered methods.

 

[ClickMini]

No matter how diligent the handler, there is no way to be as consistent as a passive device. There is bound to be a time when you are looking away, sneezing, going to grab some lunch, or having a nap. While you may have experienced success with the method, most will not.

It is still the MOST EFFECTIVE and humane method of training to teach the animal an incompatible behavior.

 

[mininik]

Amy, in the case of a vice such as pacing, if you're not around to request the horse do an incompatible behavior, how does that work? My thoughts are to add exercise, rearrange the horse's space to make it more interesting and offer the horse something (or several somethings) to redirect it's attention to in a positive way when I am not there. I suppose you mean to make the incompatible behavior something the pacing horse could do and be rewarded for without the presence of the handler, such as play with a treat ball? I do agree that this would be a preferable way to go about handling the situation, rather than the shock collar. Shock collars have been proven to stress dogs.

 

[ClickMini]

Nikki, you and I are on the same page here for sure. I think nearly all vices of the type you mention are stress-related and due to management techniques more than anything. Making changes in husbandry technique can help reduce the incidence of these behaviors. Feeding more frequently, providing enrichment in the form of toys or paddock layout to encourage movement, exercise, company, all of these things can help a lot.

Things that happen in the presence of a handler, such as impatient pawing and biting/nipping, are the type of behaviors that can be re-directed to another, and incompatible, behavior.

 

[Katiean]

In the case of the wind sucking TB I had (he wind sucked LONG before I got him). I think it would have been kinder to use the shock collar than have him beat his brains out on the barn wall because I triggered a memory of being beat for wind sucking. He did wear a cribbing strap. It didn't work.

 

[runamuk]

Actually I've been thinking on this.........

In the case of a biter using a breast collar with a shock set fairly high could work quite well.

In my experience with biters the best results came when the horse was quickly and forcefully smacked across the chest with a whip.......if I was another horse I would kick the offender more than likely in the chest........of course you also need to exert some dominant body language as well.....no meek and mild when dealing with biting.

just my experience in nipping "nipping" in the bud....pun intended

 

[hhpminis]

This has been very interesting reading, both sides.

I have never used a shock collar for dogs or horses. Never even had an electric fence, however, I am adding stallion runs this spring and will have a wire above the fence and at chest level so they cannot come over the fence at each other. I am also tired of them using my million dollar fencing for a butt scratcher.

I will not go as far to say that I would never consider a shock collar for a horse but I would have to do some research before I did. I feel very strongly that horses are not all made from the same mold. There are many different personalities and as Amy "click mini" brought out, baggage that comes along with them. There is not one discipline that works for every horse. Some are more sensitive, others are bull headed. Just like my kids, one all I had to do was give him the look, the other, well, lets just say, she took a bit more convincing.

I use positive reinforcement in my training. It is simple and old school. Reward the good, reprimand the bad. The only challenges are first, finding out what reward and reprimand works for that individual horse, and second, being consistent with whatever method you find that works. I start with the lightest discipline and work my way up until I get their attention. As they grow to understand what I am asking them to do or not to do, 9 times out of 10 the reminders become more subtle. I also coincide any physical discipline with a vocal and soon all that is needed is the vocal as they know if they dont respond the harsher is coming.

And Lisa, as far as being drug by a mini...LOL. I am not little and I have skiid across the lawn a couple times and it has been led by the smallest mini in the barn, 31 inches. There were a lot of discipline methods that I considered using on that little "darling", you will have to read between the lines to get my true feelings of him, haha. He did go back to his owners and left here with manners but as soon as he figured out he could pull the wool over their eyes he reverted to bad habits. He needed a very strong hand. He was 4 when he came, a stallion, and had absolutely no clue that humans were boss and had no fear or respect of anything that I could do to him. Never could let your guard down with him even for a second. I might have considered a shock collar for him had I thought of it.

 

[mininik]

Actually, Annette, rewarding the good and reprimanding the bad is not positive or negative reinforcement, it is considered positive punishment.

I use positive reinforcement in Agility. I never physically reprimand or say No or make a disapproving sound, no matter if the dog doesn't do as I ask. I even try not to feel or transmit negative emotion. You always try to set the dog up for success and reward immediately and often. Success may be very basic and not what you asked or want your dog to do in the future, but you build on these small successes over time. There are high value and low value rewards, but no punishment or negativity. It's been a totally new experience compared to what most do to train their horses and is truly an eye opener.

 

[ClickMini]

There are high value and low value rewards, but no punishment or negativity. It's been a totally new experience compared to what most do to train their horses and is truly an eye opener.

Nikki, that is the exact way I felt when I started clicker training my horses six years ago! It was as if I suddenly was able to "talk" to them. I had to learn to really evaluate each task I was teaching them, break it down into very small pieces of behavior. I learned about behavior chains and back-chaining. It is quite interesting to see how the horses change their body language when you open a training session. They ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND. I just can't express strongly enough how well this has worked for me in every area of horse handling. I still do work with big horses, really big horses. Clicker training made my big Thoroughbred safe to be around, it is the ONLY method I found that worked correctly with him.

Now this is not to say that I am perfect, LOL. Far from it. But I have built such a solid reinforcement history with my animals that they will forgive my occasional lapse into "being human." Some more than others...my little mare I got this summer is extremely sensitive, and I can never, ever cross that line with her. She is always ready to believe that humans are not really all that great. Of course, I don't have a really long reinforcement history on that horse in the context of her life span.

I just don't feel that punishment has much of a place in good training. If a horse learns in a punishing environment, it is in spite of and not because of. Most traditional horse training methods are based on negative reinforcement as you know. I do believe that negative reinforcement is necessary for horse training.

Educational information for those who don't understand what it means: negative reinforcement is the removal of an undesired stimulus when the animal performs correctly. An example of this might be taking the slack out of your lead rope and when your horse gives to that pressure (undesired stimulus) you release.

 

[nightflight]

So often the issue really isn't the issue. It reminds me of a great conversation.

Owner: My horse won't load into a trailer.

Trainer: So, teach him to lead.

Owner: He does lead.

Trainer: So, lead him into the trailer.

A horse can come with a vice like bite/kick, but there is only so long you can blame it on a old owner, bad trainer, or hormones. Unless the horse has been mentally destroyed, sooner or later you have to own to the fact that you are the owner/trainer and as such you are the one allowing it to continue. Unless the owner/trainers in question are planning on using the shock collar on themselves after they are finished with the horse (since it's such a great teaching tool) it's not going to do to much about the people part of the equation.

Working with a trainer would be a great solution. The horse would win - by getting training vs. conditioning. The owners would win - the would learn some of the skill it takes to handle a horse so he doesn't bite/kick.

The more a horse has learned, the more he is able to learn. Think it through. If you work with horses you already know it. Conditioning is not training. It doesn't improve a skill set, or the animal's ability to learn and reason. Conditioning creates a response - there is nothing there to build on. Shocking that horse may condition it not to bite/kick, but it isn't training. It will get the owners the result they want, but it's not going to do a darn thing to improve that horse's life and make it a thinking being.