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LowriseMinis

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Flipping through an old issue of Ride! or some other magazine, I was reading over their special article about Minis. It was mentioned in the article that it's not uncommon for colts to retain their testicles until they are three years old.

Any truth to that? Both of my boys descended at a young age.

Is it better to wait it out, or have your vet 'go in after them'?

How likely would it be for a, let's say, yearling colt with undescended testes to try and breed a mare? What are the chances that he would be fertile?
 
It is a self perpetuating myth!!

We accept this very bad fault and say"Oh Minis do that!!"

No other "breed" would accept this rubbish.

Colts that descend late should NOT be bred from, end of story.

Then the problem, and it is a very real problem, would go away.

Same as luxating patellas, it is a fault, it should not be accepted.

As to breeding, although the testicles in theory need to be outside the body to be fertile (temps are too high inside the body, hence the sudden fetish among young men for boxer shorts!!
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) but in fact only one need to come down, so you can have one retained and one coming and going, thus the colt can be fertile.

In this case it only takes one to tango.
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There is also the fact that a lot of people think if you cannot see them they are not there.

You really do have to get up close and very personal to find the little gonads, they often "lurk" up there especially in winter.

If they are truly retained they will be up beyond the inguinal canal, and if that happens they will not descend.

I have never known a horse with both truly retained, although I have known a few with one retained and, far more commonly, horse with one the size of a peanut (so it was coming and going like a Yo-Yo) and one the size of a grapefruit.
 
Just like Jane said. It happens, it isn't a scarce condition, but that doesn't make it acceptable. My preference is that both of them should be down and at least be able to be palpated at birth. They should be able to be visibly seen with no problem what so ever by 1 year old. Anything other than that is not what I deem acceptable as a future stud.

This is just my view point, many others feel differently. There are too many nice horses to justify them being very late "bloomers" and to use the late bloomers as studs.

Carolyn
 
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If a colt like that belonged to you and still hadn't dropped as a yearling, would you wait to geld him until they dropped on their own, or would you have the vet open him up and go hunting?
 
I have done some research on this subject ..I had a "chriporchid " colt, only 1 testie decended. It is possible ..and common for the testies to not drop as soon as they do in bigger horses. It is something to do with the growth rate in minis verses the larger breed horses. It was about 8 years ago that I did this research. we found out about this little problem AFTER we opended up the little guy. There is a blood test you can do that measures the amount of testosterin , you sould do this blood test before the surgury , and again after to measure levels , to make sure everything is out. The study was done in England, and what I read (10 pages or so ) made a lot of sense to me , and to my open minded vet. I was told that if you dont feel both testies at a very young age , you should wait until max age 3 , by then if they dont come down they probably wont at all .. I remember now , it was due to the mini horses grow at a slower rate than the bigger ones , therefore the testies dont grow as fast and wont get stuck in the tube , so eventually they could drop , unless you have a horse that is a very fast grower , and the testies grow so fast that they get stuck way up inside. I am making a general , and simple statement , the documents were very elaborate.good luck and the condition is called CRYPTORCHID my spelling may be way off
 
and by the way ...it shouldnt keep you from ever breeding a mini stallion, its not heridatery , from what I read.....my yearling doesnt have a nice conformation...both parents have nice legs, and parents before ...sometimes it just happends . i wont be breeding her , because I am not a breeder , and I think there are too many minis out there that need better homes than they currently have...same with children, once we can take care of the ones we put on the earth that are living a horrible life due to neglect...then I will consider it , but that wont be in my lifetime
 
Lowriseminis, if I had a colt that wasn't dropped by the time it was a year old would I have the crypt surgery done?

If his hormones were not raging and I had the accomodations to keep him from the girls, I may wait it out a bit just to see if I could have a less expensive "regular " gelding procedure. Regular, low difficulty gelding procedures start at $300 with my vet (and is pretty typical of the area). Even if it is a procedure with a fully dropped colt, but difficult or a cumbersome issue, the price begins to go up.

If that clearly isn't an option, then I would just bite the bullet and pay to have it done and over with.

and by the way ...it shouldnt keep you from ever breeding a mini stallion, its not heridatery , from what I read.....
Krissy, sorry, my view point just isn't the same. We are all allowed to have our own ideas on any matter we choose. I Have not been faced with having a colt that is a crypt, but all the same, I would not keep a late bloomer intact, nor would I buy a colt (with intentions of using him as a stud someday) that is not fully dropped at an early age. I would instruct anyone that was asking my opinion on my personnal feelings on the issue that it would be a colt that is not something I would care to keep intact.I feel that it reflects directly on my integrity when it comes to minis.

Carolyn
 
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Well I'm by no means an expert in this area, but I have to agree on giving it time and making super sure it is not "hiding" if you really want him as a stallion. I know lots of people here have said that the year rule for large horses is not applicable with minis.

My stallion somehow managed to hide his second one from myself, his previous owners and several veterinarians for fourteen years. Now he has two uniform size ones right where they should be.

Not that I would recommend waiting fourteen years to make a gelding decision! In my case there just wasn't any immediate need to geld him since he lives over at the neighbor's place.

Daryl
 
I have done some research on this subject ..I had a "chryptorchid " colt, only 1 testis descended. It is possible ..and common for the testis to not drop as soon as they do in bigger horses. It is something to do with the growth rate in minis verses the larger breed horses. It was about 8 years ago that I did this research. we found out about this little problem AFTER we opended up the little guy. There is a blood test you can do that measures the amount of testosterone , you should do this blood test before the surgery , and again after to measure levels , to make sure everything is out. The study was done in England, and what I read (10 pages or so ) made a lot of sense to me , and to my open minded vet. I was told that if you don't feel both testis at a very young age , you should wait until max age 3 , by then if they don't come down they probably wont at all .. I remember now , it was due to the mini horses grow at a slower rate than the bigger ones , therefore the testes don't grow as fast and wont get stuck in the tube , so eventually they could drop , unless you have a horse that is a very fast grower , and the testes grow so fast that they get stuck way up inside. I am making a general , and simple statement , the documents were very elaborate.good luck and the condition is called CRYPTORCHID my spelling may be way off
Sorry but you are wrong here.

There is absolutely NO reason whatsoever why a Mini should drop later than a big horse, none, zilch, nada.

The testicles HAVE to be present at birth, there is no way round this one, if they do not come down within three days the inguinal ring closes and they cannot physically come down.

The condition is hereditary but it's another of these sneaky ones like patella luxation and undershot jaws etc.

It is NOT acceptable.

It would MOST certainly put me off using such a colt as a stallion.

Honestly, what is the point??

We are knee deep in really nice colts, why on earth would I use a colt whose testicles have not descended til three years old??

Why would I put such a problem into my bloodlines??

Bit like saying "Dwarfism in a stallion is OK as it's only a 50/50 chance"

Sorry but I prefer NO chance at all of these problems because, you know what??

Stuff is always going to happen, no matter how careful we are, no matter how watchful.

There will always be dwarfs because that just sometimes happens.

There will always be undershot jaws, patella luxation and late descending testicles.

As a "one off" these things happen in all breeds.

So why on earth would we say that late descenders are common in Minis??

Why would we tolerate it, it never used to be true??

The reason is that, by tolerating something that I consider to be a HUGE fault in a prospective breeding stallion, we have allowed it to become common.

We need to start stamping this sort of thing out and the very first step to doing this is by changing our thinking.

I have never had a foal that was not descended, fully, at birth.

I have never had a colt who had removed his testicles at weaning who did not have them back, in place, by a yearling.

I start using my colts as two year olds.

I geld the foals that I am not going to keep.

So that proves what I am saying.

This should be a given.

Who in their right mind would buy, as a future stallion, a colt whose testicles were not fully descended.

([SIZE=8pt]and I know this last sentence is going to make a few people wince and a few more blush as I happen to know a few who should have known better have done just that!!! Never fear, I bought a stallion once, a mature horse, and I never checked to see how many he had!! Luckily he had two nice ones as he was Rabbit's father!! So that is a bit tongue in cheek, as a lot of us actually have
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In my point of view, sometimes it's not an issue of whether a colt or stallion is monorchid or cryptorchid, it's an issue of whether the owner or even veterinarian can find them! I have personally seen a number of colts and/or stallions that did indeed have two testicles descended through the inguinal ring, but were not readily visible and not always easily palpable. Those horses are not cryptorchid!
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I have an ASPR pony who i believe is 4 this year. Until recently I thought he was crypt. when i got him he was completely wild and i certainly couldn't have checked for them.....when i could he had one testicle definatly decended and hanging down..very normal size.. with no sign of the second nor could i feel the second. Because i wasn't sure if it was there and he was just sucking it up or not..and of all the stuff i heard about shetalnds and mini's decending late i was checking him frequently. All of a sudden he sucked up the one down..and I swear i haven't seen it probably in TWO YEARS!! it just disappeared...lol I had a vet up in maine when i lived there palpate him on one occation when i was having another horse vetted and he couldn't find it. Everyplace in New England quoted me $1500 or better to do the crypt surgery so i opted to just let him keep his jewels because he is well behaved and quite frankly i wouldn't spend that much to have it done!

Now that I live in Kentucky vet work is far cheaper i was told for a crypt it would probably be around $400-$600 to geld him. I had a vet out gelding another horse and asked him to sedate him and see if his other jewel just HAPPEND to be there by any luck. guess what..it was....vet said it was WAY up in but it was there.. YAY.. now i can have him gelded for them easily sum of $100!! LOL i was never so excited about a testicle in my life! He was just REALLY good at keeping his whole package sucked up in.
 
please read the article !!!! My vet also expected to find a large testie , as only one droped at age 2....he found a normal to smaller sized fully functioning according to the pathology testie that he later said would have droped on its own if given thê time....some of you people are sooo judgemental.. This is my oppinion based on MY expierence and what MY doctor said in Benecia California..I saw the testie myself, and it looked just like the other one , just a little harder to get out , he had to really squeeze the tube and force it out...again pathology report said ..normal. to tell someone that they cant breed because of this is just an oppinion..like I think if your on drugs , poor or , living on wellfare you shouldnt reproduce..thats my oppinion , and people can do what they want . I am not speaking for the entire population..
 
Personally, I can't imagine breeding anything less than ideal, and IMO that means testes come down on their own in a reasonable amount of time. But! This wasn't the direction I was heading in.

I went out to look at a little colt today, who supposedly hadn't dropped at 13 months. I was just trying to figure out the best way to approach gelding him if I got him!
 
I just went through a gelding proceedure with an 8 month old colt that I had palpated several times looking for any signs of testes. I even called the breeder and asked her if she had him gelding and I didn't know about it. There was no evidence of him dropping at all. Long story short...the vet had no problems at all finding both and only made one incision. There was hardly any blood and no problems afterward.

My point would be that I obviously didn't realize they would be so hard to find/feel. Someone that is more experienced with how to find them had no trouble.
 
If you had a really nice stallion for breeding and producing nice offspring .And one of his colts was a Cryptorchid would you stop using him to breed ....as you say its heredatery???? Will all the people that had stallions that had Cryptorchids now geld their stallions?? I doubt it , so why should this woman not breed? And if you think se should stop because she is aware of the problem , what if you got a call from a client of yours that told you your top stallion produced this and you need to geld him so he wont produce more? Hmmmmm..think about it
 
If it ever happened to me, yes, I would.

But since , in forty years, it never has.......

Maybe, just maybe, my constantly readjusting my breeding programme might be working??

What you have to understand is that if a colt is two years old BOTH his testicles should have arrived, long ago, and be evident.

By two I would not even expect to have to palpate, not unless he was very hairy, not with an animal that I was going to breed from.

By two he should, basically, be a stallion!

Since there are thousands and thousands of nice colts around, why on earth would you use something that is known to be less than perfect??

And before you jump down peoples throat I should tell you that there are a number of people on here who, having had one dwarf from a previously "perfect record" stallion and mare have gelded the stallion and given the mare away as a pet.

So I think you will find that those of us who are outspoken are more than happy to back it up with action.

You should not be so quick to judge, my dear.
 
Finding testicles is an art, not everyone can do it, I accept.

Some Vets are pretty good, I am better at finding them than my Vet but that is really not something for which I care to get a reputation, especially when, as my Vet did, a fairly large gathering at a dinner party is informed of the fact.

I wondered why people kept giving me strange looks
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What you should never rely on, though, is visual only, some foals are born with a "right pair" but others are a little more polite about things, or maybe just shy??
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how nice that you and your ponys are "PERFECT" , and that you have blemish free offspring...
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sorry , but I find that hard to believe . no person no thing , animal , act, is perfect.. I am sure all of your horses are nice...but nothing is perfect. keep it real . and I will say no more to this topic to reply to a post that you have posted in , obviously we dont see eye to eye , and it seems you are as stubborn as I am . this makes me want to leave the forum..
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i have a two year old dwarf and his cherries have never dropped,

i got the vet out to check his heart and lungs ect the other day, and he couldnt find them,he said he was a crypt

i dont have any mares,he lives with his father who has been gelded, the dam was sold back to the previous owners,and they know all the history,

he is not coltish atall,

i have no intention of gelding him, hes never leaving home to breed,.....
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