Seller responsibity - where does it end?

[rabbitsfizz]

I am afraid Nathan is 100% right, in law (Wow Nathan that has to be a first, I really do agree with you!!)

Morally the seller has an obligation and, were this a car, the seller would also have a legal obligation...now that is here, I'm not sure about US, but then only if the seller is a Trader, if they are a private person, all bets are off.

The seller is selling something, basically they don't have to say anything at all, and if they do, 9 times o/o 10 it is your word against theirs.

This has been going on for thousands of years, otherwise Caveat Emptor would not be in Latin

If there is no pre-purchase exam there is no responsibility.

A Judge would not be aware of the finer points of the problems anyway, so it would get nowhere in court.

The buyer needs to talk to the seller and find out where they stand....for all we know the seller may say "Bring it back I'll refund your money"

We should not condemn them until we know what is going on!!

 

[littleones]

Well - it is interesting reading everyone's opinions. I have been ripped off many times with the purchase of miniature horses. I do know that it will never happen to me again - because I plan to sell all of my horses and walk away from this part of my life. I can't trust anyone - whereas I tend to be way too honest (if that is possible).

I plan to have the filly checked by my vet to make sure that there isn't anything else going on in her mouth. She is undershot - not overshot - that is why I am so concerned.

I used to breed show dogs and stood behind my breeding program 100% - and I am the same with the minis - but I guess that isn't the way that all breeders feel!!!!!

 

[Genie]

I can hear your pain in your last post. It is too bad that you have had bad experiences more than once.

Being honest is good and will never be the wrong thing.

I never want to be in the "horse trader" category either, I try to tell my buyers every thing I can think of both positive and negative.

If the seller in this case was a big name breeder then "word of mouth" will be their downfall and ruin their future business.

Sooner or later someone will start talking.

If they do the right thing by you then you can then give positive feedback about them.

I would encourage you to approach the seller and ask them to do the right thing.

You said you paid well because you were looking for a show horse and later a broodmare, for which this filly does not fit.

Good luck and wishing you the best for 2009.

 

[Allure Ranch]

Well - it is interesting reading everyone's opinions. I have been ripped off many times with the purchase of miniature horses. I do know that it will never happen to me again - because I plan to sell all of my horses and walk away from this part of my life. I can't trust anyone - whereas I tend to be way too honest (if that is possible).
I plan to have the filly checked by my vet to make sure that there isn't anything else going on in her mouth. She is undershot - not overshot - that is why I am so concerned.

I used to breed show dogs and stood behind my breeding program 100% - and I am the same with the minis - but I guess that isn't the way that all breeders feel!!!!!

[SIZE=12pt]I'm extremely sorry to hear that you've regrettably had such a bad experience with purchasing horses from certain individuals in the industry and it's apparently happened on more than one occasion based on your own comments. Please don't let these unfortunate circumstances discourage you and your interest in the miniature horse breed. Not everyone in this business operates under deplorable ethics. As adverse as these events have been for you I implore you to please reconsider your thoughts of selling your horses.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Sincerely,[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Kimberle Young[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]Allure Ranch[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]http://www.allureranch.com[/SIZE][SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt]http://www.allureranch.com/video/fury.wmv[/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

 

[Minimor]

I'm sorry to hear that you've had so many bad experiences with purchasing that you're going to give up you horses. I can only imagine how discouraged you are feeling just now. You've been buying from the wrong people; there are some good sellers around.

A good seller would have called you and told you about the bite as soon as he/she noticed it, even if he/she is not required to disclose faults of the horse unless the buyer asks directly about the specific fault. Granted, you should have asked about bite, but still I maintain that a good seller would have disclosed that, especially since he/she probably knew that you were buying the filly as a show horse and bite does count in the show ring...I have seen AMHR judges ask to see the bite of every horse in every class, they don't all ignore bite, and they don't all ask only if they see something that indicates there is an issue with the bite on a specific horse.

I've heard a supposedly "top breeder" make statements such as this one made to you about the bite, to the effect that "my stallion doesn't have that problem (whatever the problem may be) and none of his foals have it either"...when quite plainly some of the horse's offspring DO have the problem...and at that point that person no longer qualifies as a "top breeder" IMO because a top breeder should be able to recognize faults--if they see nothing but perfection in every one of their foals then they are barn blind. I've never yet seen any one breeder churn out perfection in 100% of his/her foals, and I have much more respect for a breeder that can recognize the faults in his own horses than I do for one that brags about how absolutely perfect each and every one of them is.

I'm one that would tell you about every fault, however slight, a horse might have, because for the few that I do sell I want the buyer to be absolutely happy with the horse that they get--particularly if the horse is going to someone a long distance away and they cannot come to see the horse in person before they buy. I know at least one breeder that would tell you to ship the horse back & she would give your money back. And I know at least one breeder that would tell you there can't possibly be any real problem in the filly because her horses never have that problem...the filly is perfect in every other way and so a little bit of an underbite is no big deal.

 

[Margaret]

I am sorry that this happened to you Littleones..

Please see if this lady will work with you before you write her off as a bad breeder.

Not every miniature breeder is unscrupulous in their dealings.

I myself would have told you of any changes in the fillies bite, and made you aware so you could redecide.

If it makes you feel any better my first miniature horse was mis represented to me as well,

so I too had to learn the hard way about dis-honest breeders..

Any way I hope you find the silver lining in this situtation,

as with mine we found many positives, that far out weighed the negetive factor.

 

[MiLo Minis]

This is the reason that I try the best I can to educate people shopping for Minis (or anything else for that matter) An informed buyer is a happy buyer! You really need to educate yourself BEFORE purchasing anything. Talk to as many people as you can. Read everything you can get your hands on. Know what you want or need and the true value of it before you purchase. So many people meet up with one person that has the product and take their advice and opinion as gospel - it isn't always! The more you know the less likely you are to be taken in by someone unscrupulous and that doesn't just pertain to Minis - there are people like that in every walk of life.

I have several articles on my website that give you hints and tips on how to shop for a Mini as well as to help educate you on good conformation, etc. At the very least if you can speak in horsey terms you will appear to know what you are talking about and make the unscrupulous cautious of ripping you off!

 

[kaykay]

I feel so bad for you. Please know that I dont think any of us agree with what was done to you. But most of us have been there done that so we know there is very little recourse unless you got everything in writing in your contract.

Again a reputable breeder would NEVER do that and would have gladly taken the filly back and let you pick another one.

I just hate that this has soured you on miniature horses. Maybe just take some time to step back and let it all settle before making any fast decisions.

There are some awesome breeders out that that would never do that. My circle of who I will buy from is very small. Please email me if you would like a list of some of what I feel are the top reputable breeders.

Kay

 

[Genie]

I feel so bad for you. Please know that I dont think any of us agree with what was done to you. But most of us have been there done that so we know there is very little recourse unless you got everything in writing in your contract.
Again a reputable breeder would NEVER do that and would have gladly taken the filly back and let you pick another one.

I just hate that this has soured you on miniature horses. Maybe just take some time to step back and let it all settle before making any fast decisions.

There are some awesome breeders out that that would never do that. My circle of who I will buy from is very small. Please email me if you would like a list of some of what I feel are the top reputable breeders.

Kay

exactly right.....it would be too bad to be driven away from the joy of these little horses due to these bad experiences.

We have all had situations that were less than perfect, but we get wiser and I continue to enjoy my minis and would not want to be so sickened that I let them all go.

We are all hoping the breeder does the right thing for you and restores your faith.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I feel just awful about this and I live way across and ocean from you, and still feel responsible merely because I am a breeder and I do sell!!

Be assured that you have come across the exceptions, here, not the rule, if you had come to this Forum earlier, and bought form someone here you would have been alright, this is a family, here (and we fight like one, sometimes!!) and you just do not swindle family!!

Please, try to stay with this one, you are throwing away so much potential joy and you still don't know for sure that the breeder will not see you right.

Hang in there it will come right in the end!!

 

[littleones]

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I am not new into the breed - I did lots of research and homework when I first started into minis. I have spent a lot of money buying the best that I could afford - and I do have some really nice horses. But I have had way too many bad experiences and although I totally love and adore the breed - I am at a point where I need to move on. I believe that the breeder of this filly would try to rectify the problem - but to ship this filly back will likely cost me $1000 to $1500 and if she replaced this filly with another one - the cost to ship that horse here would be the same. So my original investment which was high (especially in the market today) would have another $3000 tacked on to it - and for what? It is difficult to sell anything in this market - unless you are one of the "big" breeders.

I have purchased a horse that was starving (she was represented as being "thin" when she was actually emaciated) - and when I posted about that mare (and the seller still posts lots on this forum) - my posting was deleted. I never once mentioned the mare's name or the seller's name - as I didn't want to cause a scandal - but when the seller found the posting she told the whole world who she was etc and the posting was deleted.

I purchased a lovely bred mare from a breeder (far away from me) and when the mare foaled a 24" colt I questioned the breeder on the stallion and it was only then that she mentioned that the mare had "gotten in" with her shetland stallion - why wouldn't she have told me that before?

The list goes on and on. Obviously I am way too trusting and that is a fault of mine.

I had someone inquire recently about a mare that I have for sale - I told her all of the good qualities about the mare and also told her what the faults of the mare were. She commended me on my honesty and couldn't quite believe how honest I was. She didn't buy the mare - and that was OK with me as I don't want to sell a horse to someone that isn't exactly what they really want.

I know that there are honest people out there - and I have bought some very nice horses from honest people - but there are too many out there that are happy about making a sale and what happens after that they really don't care about.

 

[My-Lil-Pony]

Be assured that you have come across the exceptions, here, not the rule,

Sadly I disagree. I have found sales tactics and practices so very different in the Miniature horse world compared to many other large breeds. I have yet to figure out if it is greed, ignorance, barn blindness or a combination. Yes, there are great sellers out there but they are not the majority in this particular breed. I am sure many if not most of us have our stories about bad or dishonest sellers. This buyers experience is not isolated.

 

[Genie]

across the exceptions, here, not the rule, if you had come to this Forum earlier, and bought form someone here you would have been alright, this is a family, here (and we fight like one, sometimes!!) and you just do not swindle family!!

I wish that was true but I wouldn't count on it.......I think it just all goes back to trying to do your homework and making sure you ask as many questions as you can and get things documented, should there be a discrepancy.

I also would not say it is isolated to the Miniature Horse world. I have seen it in the big horse world too, and also, the dog business.

Maybe the sellers are "barn blind" but maybe they just want to make a sale and feel reputation isn't important.

I know a breeder, close now to retiring, whose sales tactics left a lot to be desired, and yet people kept buying from him, then complaining after the fact.

I kind of keep track of those famous "sales pitches" so when I hear one, I do some more checking...like "selling because she will be way to small for our program"...means I better do some more checking, like how tall at birth and what heights are in the pedigree.

Anyway, not to belabour this, just feeing bad that you are going to "walk away" and I wish you all the best for 2009. Only you know what is best for your peace of mind.

 

[Leeana]

I am so sorry you had to deal with such a seller, do not be afraid to ask the sellers for references they have sold to, a good seller is the first thing i look for who treats their "customers" just as that!

I like people buying from me or sending horses to me to be happy, even if that means i come out on the lower end of the deal, reputation is everything.

Allot of people include in the contract that no money will be refunded except in so and so case, but farm credit given...did you ask about switching the filly for another horse at there farm?

I am sorry..there are SO many good sellers out there, i would never give a bad seller a penny of my time or money. I am a very easy person to work with, as long as the client is happy, i am happy.

 

[Minimor]

I have learned over the years--and this applies to horses of all sizes, not just Minis--that it doesn't pay to take anyone's word for how wonderful their horses are...if they are raving about the wonderful conformation the horse has, if I don't know the person and know how knowledgeable they are/aren't and so know that I can trust (or not) their judgment of the horse...I am not going to take their word for it. I figure that if that horse arrives and I am unhappy with the horse's conformation, really I have only myself to blame. If I'm paying big bucks for a horse I'm going to want to see side photos and front/rear photos and probably even a video of the horse coming/going, as well as a video from the side...and I'm going to ask about the bite and ask for photos of the bite just to double check on what the seller says. If I don't do any/all of those things and end up with a horse that is less than what the seller said, that's really my own dumb fault. And if it happened to me once I'd hope that after that I'd wise up and be more careful when I'm looking to buy a horse from photos the next time around. Fool me once, shame on you....fool me twice, shame on me, that is my motto.

Some things are beyond the buyer's control....mare being bred to the wrong stallion, for instance--I don't know of any way that a buyer could determine that...but there again I figure that if I only buy the mare for herself, I can never be too disappointed by the foal she has, because even if the foal is wrong, I still would have the mare I wanted. If the foal comes out "right" then it's a big bonus. So many people say to be sure and buy a bred mare only for herself, and that is extremely good advice.

 

[albahurst]

I am so, so sorry to hear this has happened to you. I do know how you must feel- I have been there, too.

Peggy

 

[Riverdance]

I am sorry that you have had this experience and unfortunatly almost all of us have had some of the same bad experiences. But it is something you will find in all horse business, any breed. Just in Miniatures, more breeders have never been in horses before, so therefore same may just not know.

I have also noticed that some of the bad breeders that I have bought from have gone out of business. If one gets a bad reputation, it is going to follow you. A breeder may survive for a few years, but in the end, it will get out.

I am as honest as I can be about my horses, as I want repeat buyers. Most of mine have been sold when they reach the show ring where people can get a chance to see them, most being sold at the AMHA World Show.

The person you bought from, she knew that the bite was bad and she should have called you before bringing the horse to the other farm to let you know, so that you could make your own decisions. (I personally would not buy a young horse with a bad bite). She is the one who should be responsible for the shipping costs to replace that filly as she knew that the bite went off, and did not tell you.

I once sold a filly of my daughters (she was getting out of the business). We had bred her dam to my stallion. Later (I found out) , my son in law put the dam in with their 26 1/2" stallion as they thought she was bred (she ws 34") when the filly was born we naturally registered her to my stallion. Sold her, and later found out we had the wrong sire (yes, the little 26" got the 34" pregnant) I took the filly back and paid to have her sent back and paid to get the replacement down there. After all, it was my daughters fault and not the buyers.

Since when is the seller obligated to do anything? It is the BUYERS responcibility, not the sellers. The seller can not LIE about the horse, other than that, its the buyer. The buyer is not required to be made aware of anything... its their duty to discover everything they can to make an informed decision. If the buyer didn't do even a basic exam, either by a trusted associate, vet, or themselves, they can blame nobody but themselves for the bad purchase.

Unfortunatly this is what horse sellers so rely on. Buyer beware and screw you. They are supposed to tell the truth, but prove that they did not. Even written contracts just do not cover everything. As for a vet examn. You tell me how many vets know conformation. They can tell you if a mare is pregnant, not crippled and have a proper bite. Many vets will not do a pelvic examn on a Mini or an Ultra Sound. One has to do a biopsy to see if the uterus is healthy, even that is no gurantee that the mare is breeding sound. She may come back with an A rating and still not be able to reproduce. A vet should be able to tell if the mare needs to be flushed, but many can not tell if there is internal scarring from a dystocia in the past. Vet checks can only go so far.

Reputation of a breeder is the MOST important thing. Until breeders stop feeling that they are not responsible for the horse they sell, we will still have horse traders.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

Be assured that you have come across the exceptions, here, not the rule,

Sadly I disagree. I have found sales tactics and practices so very different in the Miniature horse world compared to many other large breeds. I have yet to figure out if it is greed, ignorance, barn blindness or a combination. Yes, there are great sellers out there but they are not the majority in this particular breed. I am sure many if not most of us have our stories about bad or dishonest sellers. This buyers experience is not isolated.

Ditto here. Our first mare was sold to us- she was oversize. We didn't get her measured until she was home, by then it was too late.

Several horses bought from one farm. Pretty much all of them went oversize "A". Fortunately we always registered them R. (this was when it was only $50 more- the good ol' days!) Sold most of that stock. Kept the ones that stayed under.

Bought a horse on applications. Mare wasn't DNA'd. Jumped through hoops to get him registered, took almost a whole year.

Another horse I bought several years ago from a "major" breeder. I DID ask how his bite was, the answer was "Carl Mitz has seen it" (whatever THAT meant) but I didn't ask for pix. Yup, got him home, it was off. WAY off. I paid a pretty penny for him. Buyer beware. However, we had OUR vet look at him and do his teeth several times and now his bite is dead on. The funny thing was is that we took him to a show a couple years later and the breeder was there. Seemed really surprised to see us there with him. Lil dude won his class.

However, I DO have to say that there are many GOOD ones out there that I have dealt with. One replaced a colt that had died six weeks after we got him with an even better colt. Another who sent me videos and pix of a gelding I fell in love with AND arranged transportation from CANADA for me at no addition charge. Another who got us started in minis and has been our mentor for over ten years now. And still teaches us!

Lucy

 

[littleones]

Hi everyone - I am working on finding transport to send this filly back to the breeder (of course at my expense). I thought you would like to see a picture of the bite on this show quality filly. It is a shame as the filly is so pretty - but this isn't show or breeding quality in my mind.

 

[lil hoofbeats]

YUCK!!!! THat bite aint going back on,

even the gums dont line up. Guess it was too much trouble for the seller to run her finger across the teeth before she delivered her to be picked up by you!

We bought a horse that we ask all the right questions, she even sent a bite shot, and found out later that the bite shot was from another horse!!! so there are some pretty unreliable sellers out there. We still always ask for a bite shot. If the sellers are not able to get the pictures i need, then i will buy from someone that can get the pics i want to see.

When we sell horses from my farm, i always try to represent them as clearly, and acurately as i can. We have repeat customers EVERY year, and we like it that way!!!