Seller responsibity - where does it end?

[littleones]

I am in an uncomfortable situation - and really would like opinions of other forum members. Here is the scenario........

1) Filly purchased as a show horse (and eventually a broodmare) - for a reasonably large sum of money - from a top breeder

2) Filly is sired by an outstanding stallion - proven producer - extremely well known

3) Filly has great conformation - suberb temperament - fantastic pedigree

4) Breeder is 1000 miles away

5) Breeder dropped filly off at another breeder's farm - when I was not there to meet breeder (a few hundred mile drive)

6) Breeder noticed when doing health papers that the bite on the filly was not right

7) Breeder did not mention to purchaser that the bite was off

8) Purchaser noticed bite when examining filly - but breeder had already left to go home

9) Purchaser had no choice but to load filly into trailer and remove filly from the premises of the other farm

10) Purchaser mentioned to breeder that bite was off

11) Breeder was not worried as bite problems are very uncommon in the particular bloodlines - bite should correct

12) 2 months later the bite is getting worse

13) Filly is only half paid for - due to the fact that the bite was off

14) What should purchaser do at this point? What is the breeder's responsibility? This filly cannot be shown - should not be bred. What would you do?

 

[End Level Farms]

I would have a vet look at her teeth. Sometimes a back tooth can misaligne the jaw.

Once that happened I would look at my contract and see what the seller/breeder has told the purchaser about the filly Straight Bite Legs Feet. Any guarantees as far as being a show breeding prospect.

At that point it would be easier to say what could or can be done.

If you want to whisper or pm me with more of the details I would discuss this more thoroughly with you.

 

[JourneysEnd]

I agree with having a vet check it as you'll need a vet's statement.

Horse was sold as a show horse and is not suitable for that.

Seller saw the problem before the horse was delivered.

Seller is responsible for making it right whatever that looks like between the two of you.

I would suggest any contact between you and the seller is backed up in writing, just in case.

Just depends on the laws where you're at as to if you have a case.

 

[Reble]

Buyer beware.

Hope something about the bite is in the contract since only half the payment has been made?

Sorry and Good Luck

Best to try and work it out

 

[maestoso]

Even if the contract states that the horse is breeding and show quality, it is a tricky situation. The only easy way out of this is if the contract clearly states that a correct bite is guaranteed. Too late, but it is always a good idea to ask for a picture of the bite when buying a horse sigh-unseen.

I certainly would not pay the rest of the amount. See what the vet says about the mouth. I would clearly state to the seller that I don't want to wait for the bite to fix itself. When buying show minis, I expect to have a good bite, and since this filly doesn't have it, I want to return it.

Another problem is that many sellers do not offer refunds, just farm credits, so you can only hope that the seller has something else to offer.

This is a perfect illustration of why very specific contracts are extremely important.

 

[MyBarakah]

Ok, have a question for you. Does the filly have a over bite or under bite? If it's a under bite, you have a problem. If it's a over bite?...... by how much? Can you take a picture? If she is young, she is still growing and a little bit of a "over" bite is allowed..... but NOT a underbite..... that is NOT good.

 

[mizbeth]

Hi

I think I would call a GOOD equine dentist and have him/her look at the filly. A young horses mouth, can and will go off from time to time. Most of the time it is a growing thing and most of the time it can be corrected.

I think if I wanted to purchase a horse to show in halter I would have asked for photos of the horses mouth before I bought it and not waited for the seller to provide this information. Often times it is a matter of opinion of whether the horses bite is "off" or not. There is some allowance on teeth not aligning perfectly when showing halter classes.

FYI it is nearly impossible to guarantee that a horses mouth will not go off during its lifetime and to be responsible for that as a seller. The seller could/should only guarantee that the horses mouth is correct at time of the sale.

It is highly possible the horse mouth will straighten on its own. You did not say how old this filly is?

Good luck, I'm sure the breeder will make the sale right if it is in fact a problem. I would not stop making payments on the horse due to this problem as you can cause ill feelings with a seller that may not know of the severeity of the problem you are discribing. You could end up with a horse with a mouth that can be corrected, or corrects on its own - with no papers.

Beth

 

[turtlecreek]

One thing I would like to add to what eveyone else has said is to take pictures.

Taking pictures can create a timeline (and proof) for you if the bite is getting worse and you find there is no reason for it to be doing so.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am afraid this is a moral responsibility, no more.

Even if you had in writing that the horse was specifically sold as a show horse (which I know you will not have) there is nothing to stop you taking the animal into a show ring...it can walk, therefore it can be shown, it just will not win, and there is NEVER any guarantee of that, sorry.

You have two options, send the horse back and hope that the breeder will refund or give farm credit, or stop payments and pay the balance when the horse is mature and the bite has or has not come right.

Bites can come and go on a baby, I had my first "off bite" born this year, sold him as a pet and had him gelded, as the jawline was off at birth.

That bite is rock solid perfect now at nine months, and looks to be staying!!

It did go worse before it came right.

I have to say I would still not feel happy about breeding form a horse born like this.

If you were truly that worried you should have left the horse at the pick up point whilst it was still the responsibility of the breeder, she could have been contacted and brought back to pick it up.

Sorry to be so blunt, but Equines and the Law are really tricky things and it is always, as others have said Caveat Emptor.

 

[Jill]

Infortunately, if a good bite was not guaranteed, I think you are out of luck unless the breeder wants to step up. Personally, I feel breeders should stand behind what they produce and sell but I know some don't / won't. I've been happy with almost all of my purchases over the years but sometimes a deal can go really south, that is for sure. I'm sorry you're having a bad experience and hope that the breeder will stand behind his / her horse and make it right by you.

Additionally, "show quality" is very subjective. I know what it means to me, but it may mean something completely different to you and another thing entirely to someone else. At AMHR, they don't even check bites as far as I know, so that filly may be halter show quality at AMHR shows. She would be local show quality. She's probably obstacle class show quality, etc. (get what I mean -- almost any horse can be show quality in a certain class or at a certain level).

 

[Genie]

Not sure when you were aware of point #6 and #7, but I am assuming after the fact, when you discussed the "off bite".

If you were specifically advised that bite was on, and it's noticeably off", I would not have taken the horse from the drop off point.

Also, if it's off you don't have anything for show or as a broodmare, so I would request a refund or a credit and have them pick up the filly.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Get an equine dentist in and see what can be done about the bite. Lots of babies have slight misalignments of the jaw that can easily be corrected. You didn't say how old this filly is? If she is just now getting her permanent incisors in, it could just be that they are pushing the deciduous incisors forward making her bite look off and once they fully come in she will be fine. People should also be aware that a slight overbite is normal (I have had people that thought their teeth should be absolutely flush) although that isn't the case here as you said that the bite is getting worse. Pictures would be very helpful for us.

If nothing can be done to correct the bite, the fact that the breeder acknowledged that he/she saw the filly's bite was off during the vet's visit for the health papers and didn't feel it necessary to advise you, even though it was known you were purchasing a show/breeding horse, would give me the opinion that this breeder is not one of high moral standards and would not be someone I would want to do business with in the future. I might even be inclined to mention that to as many friends and relations I had the opportunity to do so with as I wouldn't want my friends to be found in the same position

I think, given a chance, this breeder would recognize that their reputation and, therefore, future sales, are in jeopardy and would make good on this deal.

 

[Margaret]

Have you talked to the origional breeder, to let her know your concerns?

I would do this as soon as possible .

To me a a basic requirement for a show filly is a perfect bite, and straight legs.

Also how old is the filly?

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

The buyer should have been on their toes more. The seller is responcible for making the horse avalible for examination and not lying, the buyer is responcible for everything else. If the seller signs the deal, pays the money (or a portion), and takes delivery, its THEIRS and the buyer is obligated to pay the whole sum of money. Any variation from this needs a specific and detailed contract outlining the difference.

 

[ontherisefarm]

I hate to hear of this happening.BUt I will tell you a story I had about contracts and sellers. I purchased a mare for breeding several years ago. It was stated and the mare was advertised as breeding sound. Got her home and started noticing discharge on her tail on hind end. Called in vet had her checked she had a uterine infection. Had her treated,flushed etc.. for 5 days. Alot of money invested. All this time kept in contact with seller. At the end of the treatment mare still had infection. Tried to get them to take mare back.Wouldnt do it. Long story short took them to court and lost as we didnt have a pre-purchase exam done so it made any contract void according to the judge. So I guess what I am saying is if you didnt have the exam then good luck cause if the seller doesnt wanna make it right then you just bought an expensive pet if it doesnt correct. I really feel for you..It isnt fun being on the end of a bad sale. But young horses do sometimes have off bites that do correct. I have had it happen as they grow. Sorry I couldnt be more help but it really is all in how the contract is worded and the enforcement of that contract by the law.

 

[Reble]

I hate to hear of this happening.BUt I will tell you a story I had about contracts and sellers. I purchased a mare for breeding several years ago. It was stated and the mare was advertised as breeding sound. Got her home and started noticing discharge on her tail on hind end. Called in vet had her checked she had a uterine infection. Had her treated,flushed etc.. for 5 days. Alot of money invested. All this time kept in contact with seller. At the end of the treatment mare still had infection. Tried to get them to take mare back.Wouldnt do it. Long story short took them to court and lost as we didnt have a pre-purchase exam done so it made any contract void according to the judge. So I guess what I am saying is if you didnt have the exam then good luck cause if the seller doesnt wanna make it right then you just bought an expensive pet if it doesnt correct. I really feel for you..It isnt fun being on the end of a bad sale. But young horses do sometimes have off bites that do correct. I have had it happen as they grow. Sorry I couldnt be more help but it really is all in how the contract is worded and the enforcement of that contract by the law.

I must agree with this statement of pre - purchase exam.

With big horse breeders they tell you to do this, so why not with minis.

We bought our Paso Finos off a well known Doctor in London and he told us right up front.

Before loading the horse onto our trailer did we not have a vet coming to exam this horse and baby, and we said NO, well, he told us once they are loaded and off his property he quarentees nothing.

We had no problems with these horses, but very good advice.

Vet check before purchase to be safe.

You can always call around and not use their vet, get another vet to do the checking or again which we all hate to do, pictures pictures pictures.

Good Luck

 

[kaykay]

At AMHR, they don't even check bites as far as I know, so that filly may be halter show quality at AMHR shows.

Just wanted to say that many AMHR judges do check bites. You just never know which it will be. And I have seen some spot check. A lot of times you can tell a bite might be off and I have seen judges only check those horses. The judges that check bites in AMHR has really increased in the last couple years.

For sure you should always get pictures of a horses bite if you cant check it in person. The ethical thing would be for the breeder to let you have a farm credit but if its not in the contract they dont "have" to.

One other thing to consider is how much off it is.

 

[user 488]

If nothing can be done to correct the bite, the fact that the breeder acknowledged that he/she saw the filly's bite was off during the vet's visit for the health papers and didn't feel it necessary to advise you, even though it was known you were purchasing a show/breeding horse, would give me the opinion that this breeder is not one of high moral standards and would not be someone I would want to do business with in the future. I might even be inclined to mention that to as many friends and relations I had the opportunity to do so with as I wouldn't want my friends to be found in the same position

I think, given a chance, this breeder would recognize that their reputation and, therefore, future sales, are in jeopardy and would make good on this deal.

I agree totally except for that fact that no matter what the buyer should have been told the truth about the bite......I am assuming here that the buyer asked this most important question. If the buyer asked point blank and the seller lied, it is certainly NOT UP TO THE BUYER TO HAVE TO CORRECT ANYTHING. Unfortunately there are too many sellers that just don't tell the truth for the sake of a sale. Ignorance may be another reason. The seller might not know any better, but I find it hard to believe that in most cases. So IMHO if this seller lied they are just bad news period!

But, no matter what and I have said this at LEAST 100 times on this forum....Don't buy a horse you cannot see for yourself unless you have a pre-purchase exam. This is not the time to get cheap. You will pay dearly in the long run. If you do not know the sellers personally or know you can totally trust them PLEASE get this exam done. (I am a firm believer in getting it done anyway) Tell the vet EXACTLY what you are looking for and exactly what you want done. I ALWAYS speak with the vet while he is doing the exam so there are no questions. The vet should let you know if he thinks anything is questionable and that way you can do further testing or whatever else is needed.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Since when is the seller obligated to do anything? It is the BUYERS responcibility, not the sellers. The seller can not LIE about the horse, other than that, its the buyer. The buyer is not required to be made aware of anything... its their duty to discover everything they can to make an informed decision. If the buyer didn't do even a basic exam, either by a trusted associate, vet, or themselves, they can blame nobody but themselves for the bad purchase.

 

[user 488]

If the buyer didn't do even a basic exam, either by a trusted associate, vet, or themselves, they can blame nobody but themselves for the bad purchase.

I totally agree with this too. I don't feel the least bit sorry for people who don't look after themselves.

But there are certain ethics and morals you would hope a seller would have.

And you are right IMO.....the seller is not obligated to do anything......except you hope for the truth.

But it's totally buyer beware and if you don't do your homework as a buyer then you pay the consequences.