Sales gone bad...

[MindyLee]

These I think are the warnings that I see maybe all about. I dont think it was to throw folks under buses, I think they may have been warnings. BUT I see a lot of them so that's why I posted this topic.

Better worded HGFarm

THANKS!

 

[OldStageMinis]

I agree with all the above. Fortunately, I think most people are trying to be honest sellers and buyers so horse business can still be fun. But there are always a few that have to ruin it for all.

I have had a recent personal experience with one of the "other kind" that will result in a law suit. I had tried to be vague with my original Buyers Beware post. The person I'm dealing with unfortunately is selling more horses, and I urge all of you to really check your paperwork BEFORE you buy a horse. IF the paperwork is not there, it may be because they are not paid in full. And you may be in for a big hassle.

It is really too bad a few have to take the fun out of horses for all.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It is very frusteriating when sales go bad. Most of the times its paperwork. Or you didn't sign a contract thats worded perfectly or what not. The horse did not come as described. Sadly I see and hear about it alot in this business. And its almost scary to a point where you don't want to buy anything anymore and spend a HUGE amount of money. Anymore I would like to see the horse I'm interested in in person and even then sometimes it doesn't go right. You just have to be very careful especially with payments.

I know how it feels to be screwed over and I know I don't want to screw anyone else over. If there is a good reason something isn't working out I will try to help.

I think horse sales are going up but we as a breed need to be careful and back our buyers. Buyers you need to keep in contact with the sellers. This is a great business with a great breed, we don't need any hurt feelings or bad reputations.

 

[manelyminis]

I TOTALLY agree with what OldStageMinis said - check the paperwork BEFORE you buy the horse!!! Make sure you see the ORIGINAL papers and you see that the horse is in the seller's name. I just recently had a horrible experience with a known breeder buying a horse from me and making payments. She stopped making payments and hadn't paid me anything at all for SIX MONTHS!!! Although there was a signed contract that she agreed I could repossess the horse if she defaulted on payments, when the time finally came after several months that I decided to go pick the horse up since it looked like she wasn't ever going to finish paying me, she threatened me with police action and charges of trespassing if I dare come on her property to pick the horse up. The problem would have really been bad for any people who were buying from her because she was already trying to sell this horse yet I still owned the horse and obviously still had the papers. People can come up with all kinds of excuses as to why they can't show you the papers but in my opinion, if you can't see the papers and the horse isn't in the seller's name then I wouldn't buy the horse. It can be a paperwork nightmare like you can't believe if you've never experienced it. There are a lot of great breeders and sellers out there but it's a shame there are also some bad people out there too. So just make sure you check all the paperwork BEFORE you buy the horse. It could save you major headaches in the future.

 

[Tab]

I will never understand how people don't realize that dishonesty never pays. It will follow them like the red mark followed Cain. Sales agreements are good, as is the ability to decode the lingo in the agreements, payment in full in cash before the horse is handed over is good, having the horse measured in person is good. (So you can see if they're stretching them out like a saddlebred --grrr.) Please make sure that paperwork is UTD!!!! Most of us have had an experience with that one!

Buyers point of view? Don't buy directly from pictures/videos unless you absolutely have to (i.e. you are out of the country). Check teeth and check for 2 jewels in a stallion. It's okay to back out of it if things are fishy.

Once I purchased a horse who cribbed, but this had been hidden from us. Of course the seller when confronted will say "oh, he does? I didn't know that." Sure. IMO, it is better to give away a horse with a problem, and that knowledge on the forefront, than sell a horse with a known problem kept hidden.

Of course we've all seen the horses who were sold in perfect condition and the buyer completely ruined them. Then the buyer makes the seller out to be a bad guy "selling them a cull" It's all icky. Easy solution to all of this? Honesty from all involved.

 

[valshingle]

Here's another thought...

I'm always careful to check the paperwork when I breed to an outside mare. If the mare isn't in the name of the person who contacted me, I pass. It has happened occasionally and the person always said they hadn't updated the paperwork with the registries, but I don't take any chances.

 

[Windhaven]

Well I just briefly read over the comments on this subject.

I have been at the receiving end of bad deals. Yes, I do ask all the questions and usually get pictures.

The bad thing about pictures is so many people don't know how to take decent pictures or they refuse to take fuzzy pictures. Or they avoid the angle that shows the problems.

As for asking questions: I asked if a stallion had both testicles. Said they would check and the vet would check because vet was going to be there next day. Confirmed both testicles. Went ahead and purchased horse. Paid shipping and horse was delivered and ONLY HAD ONE TESTICLE. Had 3 vets look at him and had to have a Sonic Ultrasound done before farm would agree on a trade.

Bought a stallion who was hardshipped in to AMHA asked if stallion was a TRUE 34". Seller replied back YES, he is a true 34". Got horse home and he is a TRUE 35".

I have more but will end here.

So are there dishonest sellers out there? YES

For people to think there isn't, then they are setting themselves up for GREAT disappointment.

Also as a seller, I have had to chase a lady clear across the country to get paid for the first horse I sold on payments. She kept moving and not letting me know. Well I had friends in high places and they would give me a heads up. She even told the insurance company the horse was paid for and to take my name off the insurance policy.

It is very hard to get excited about buying a horse right now. And I try to give everyone the chance and hope they are honest people. Usually comes back to bite me in the butt.

 

[Minimor]

The bad thing about pictures is so many people don't know how to take decent pictures or they refuse to take fuzzy pictures. Or they avoid the angle that shows the problems.

That one is simple--if you don't get the photos that you want to see...photos that show you what you need to see in order to make a decision, then pass on the horse. For whatever reason that some seller does not send decent photos that allow you to see conformation, if you ("you" speaking generally, not anyone specific) decide to purchase the horse based on photos that don't allow you to judge the conformation, that is your choice, not the fault of the seller. It's impossible to know whether the seller is deliberately hiding some fault by not sending photos which show that fault, or if they simply don't know how to take a decent photo. Some people never take anything but funny angled shots--I think they think they're being artistic by taking front angled shots--some buy horses from photos like that all the time and so think that's the kind of photos people want to see. Some cannot judge conformation anyway, so why look at (or take) a full side view that shows conformation....they want photos that show off the head & neck to its best advantage. (Seriously!!) Some people simply can't take a decent photo to save their lives!
I know people who will rave about some horse--they will tell you it is the most awesome horse they've ever seen. When you ask what is so awesome about the horse....they cannot really tell you. They've fallen in love with their first impression of the horse, and have never bothered to really look at the horse and figure out what its conformational strengths and weaknesses are.

I don't dispute that there are dishonest sellers out there. But I maintain that there are a lot of completely clued out sellers out there too. They try to mimic sales pitches that they themselves have been given by other sellers--they don't honestly know what they've got in terms of quality in their horse, they're just trying to make it sound really good (which they believe it to be) because that's how it was presented to them when they bought it....

As far as asking about testicles or height--that is harder, because you do depend on the seller's word for those things. You can get a photo of the horse being measured--that lets you see how the horse was standing for measuring. Honestly, there are people who believe it's perfectly acceptable to stand the horse anyway it takes to get that horse to measure a certain size. They aren't lying when they say the horse is 34"--they just believe that it's proper to stand the horse stretched & push down on his back to get him to sag to make that under 34" measurement. Testicles....making sure there are 2 could be done by way of a pre-purchase exam--something that is done a lot in big horses, not so much in Minis. A PPE is done by a vet of your choice, paid for by you, the buyer, so the word you get on the horse isn't based on any loyalty the vet may have toward his regular client. It is also good to include testicles and height as guarantees in the sales contract--along with details of what will happen if the horse arrives and is over the guaranteed height or if he doesn't have both testicles down...contracts should be very specific when certain things are of high importance. If seller balks at such guarantees, then you have a warning flag & can choose to walk away from the deal.

Of course you can still have a detailed contract & a seller may still try to back out of terms of the deal if the buyer tries to collect on it--then you know you've got a crooked seller (unless buyer is being unreasonable, complaining about height when in truth the real problem is buyer doesn't like something else about the horse...something not guaranteed in the contract, so they are trying to use something that is in the contract to get their money back--and yes, I've known of that to happen too!!) I'm not into selling horses (have bought many though!) & after knowing some of the situations that friends have found themselves in with buyers I have to say that it's just as well that I wasn't trying to do much selling. I can tell you that I don't have the patience to deal with some of the people those friends have encountered!

I have never understood why so many people continue to buy horses on application, or horses that are registered but their papers haven't been kept up to date, so are 3 owners behind. And I sure don't understand breeders who wait to register their foals, or who buy mares & breed them without bothering to transfer the papers first. If you're breeding a mare, why don't you want your name showing as breeder on the papers of the resulting foal? If you buy a horse to show, why do you want to show that horse under someone else's name? If you're in Canada, why do you want to show that AMHR or ASPC horse under the name of the non-Canadian seller, so that you miss out on any Canadian All Star awards that they horse may have been eligible for if you had him in your name???