Sales gone bad...

[MindyLee]

Sorry but just venting!!!

I wont mention any farm's names BUT just looking at other farms websites and noticing under their "sales" pages or "sold" pages I notice A LOT of issues that they are dealing with. You know: its hard enough with bad times or bad buyers/sellers out there when it comes to buying horses and it just BLOWS my mind to see such things as:

* not fully paid for

* sold wrong horse(s)

* sold in bad/poor condition (health wise)

* buyer disapears from earth with out paid in full

* still waiting on registrations after long period of time or never recieveing them

* stolen

* heights off/ confirmation defects

* for sure bred BUT not upon arrivel

* severly injured

* LFG not honored

* stealing payments

*paid in full/never recieving horse(s)

* and any other unfaithful things I have'nt mentioned!!!

:arg! :arg! :arg!

WHY!!! Do both dishonest buyers and sellers have to be like this! This is just crap cause for the honest folks out there, this one: just dont make sense and two: it makes it harded to buy and sell as the honest persons involed with sales. GOSH! I hate folks like this and even tho it has never happed to me, I dont wish this on anyone! And to the folks here on the fourm that may of have had this happen to you, I hope it never happens again! Hope you have happy endings to your current and future sales!

I know this will always happen BUT... RRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

[Katiean]

As an honest buyer this bugs me too. I usually don't have the total amount of cash up front. I really hate it when I have to ask if they will take payments. I had one mare that I bought on payments that when I had the amount paid that she figured would be a non-papered price she said I could bring the mare home. I lived in a different state. I did give the seller the balance due when I picked up the mare. I just didn't feel right taking the horse not totally paid for. I also hate to ask them if they will accept a money order. We all know that scam. I tell them I will get a postal money order or what ever kind they want. It is still uncomfortable to ask. I don't give checks and won't accept checks because I sold a horse and after leaving their farm I went to their bank and the check bounced. I went back and told them to put my horse back in my trailer. They went and got the money out of savings. Then another time I sold other stock. The people gave me a check and they took the stock with them. When they got home they called the bank and put a stop payment on the check they gave me. Unless I know the person my policy is "NO CHECKS". Yeah I hate sales gone bad.

 

[Marty]

There are still honest people out there who enjoy being able to sleep at night knowing they didn't screw someone.

I think some of it is that people are so excited about their stock, they become barn blind to their "defects". Not here. I know my horses aren't all "perfect" and I disclose all information to a potential buyer........ even though I know it might make the buyer look elsewhere. But in the grand scheme of things, they will remember that honesty and will probably send more people my way in the future. I just lost the sale of three of my horses because I was brutally honest right up front in my very first sentence to them. That hurt! But as I said, I enjoy being able to sleep at night.

 

[Jill]

How are you discovering any of those things from other farms' websites?

In this kind of an industry, reputation is everything. In all but one instance, everyone I've bought from or sold to has been honest and someone I'd be happy to deal with again.

 

[ruffian]

Where are you seeing this information?? I've never seen this on a website. This would surely leave someone open to liable.

I've sold 2 horses on time, and both have defaulted severely. I don't put this on my website, but I DO make sure to not allow payments for those people again. But it's between the buyer and me, and not on my site.

 

[Ellen]

Jill,

It is all about reputation, but then again it isn't. Some of the people you would never imagine are the ones. I

I would post a bad situation, but keep horse names and breeder names to myself. Just to find help if it can be, helped. Otherwise i let it go.

I would never post on my site. I just think it may be bad business.

 

[Jill]

I don't have a clue who's involved or who the bad buyers or sellers within this discussion are . However, I do know over the years of hearing woes from buyers about what they got not being what they hoped for, so many times it's been because assumptions have been made, the right questions were not asked, not enough pictures were seen, etc.

In my one bad deal, I got a pair of very sick horses who died shortly after coming to me despite vet care. Well known farm, but I had so many times when I thought before the horses arrived to back out of the deal and let the farm keep the money. Spent a year wishing I'd done that because of all the grief the situation caused logistically and emotionally, but then through a very odd twist of fate, those sick horses lead me to get diagnosed with a disease that un-caught would have killed me. It wasn't related to the horses, but by asking my doctor if my off blood work could be related to that situation lead me to get a chest xray (which revealed lung cancer -- never smoked, never coughed).

SO, my one sour deal wasn't so sour I guess in the end. Sure wouldn't buy from that seller ever again though

Bottom line is too often, people don't ask all that the should ask and many times sellers don't know all that they should know. A seller can in all honesty think a horse is halter champion material yet maybe it's more like costume class material. Doesn't mean they lied... They just didn't know better, but an educated buyer would know better from asking the right questions and demanding the correct types of pictures to make a choice. It's up to a buyer to get everything they need to make a choice to buy a horse or not buy the horse. So often when people have become upset, it would have been avoided if they had asked more questions up front.

Please know, I'm not talking about when people send starved horses out, horses in poor physical shape, sick horses, etc. I just know often a person is disappointed in a deal but could have spared themselves by asking more questions and getting more pictures. An unhappy buyer often is NOT the result of a dishonest seller.

 

[Minimor]

I know of a few such instances and bad deals, but only because I personally know someone involved as one of the parties--if I didn't know the right people well enough I would never get that info off of the websites of any of the parties.

I know someone who at one point did have a notice on her website about how a certain farm didn't provide papers for a horse they had sold to this person--the notice has since been removed but I haven't heard if that's because the papers eventually came through, or because of the threat of legal action if the notice wasn't removed. No one has said, and I have never been interested enough to ask.

I also know that it isn't always accurate to listen to what people have to say about other people's deals. Sometimes people complain that some farm won't give them papers...but they neglect to mention that the reason they can't get those papers is they haven't finished paying for the horse. Someimes some people will take one instance of a farm not providing papers and they will turn that into multiple cases of that farm not providing papers--the less they like the farm in question the more people they will say have failed to get papers from that farm!

Sometimes the deal is the horse has one set of papers and the seller says they will help buyer obtain hardship papers for the other registry--buyer never pursues it, buyer just complains they didn't get the other set of papers...it is always interesting to hear both sides of any story, that's for sure.

I just have to say you've found some very detailed websites if you've gotten all of that info off of someones sales and sold pages!

 

[Minimor]

I should have put in my first post...though I see Jill did pretty much say just what I was thinking when she posted the 2nd time...

It isn't always a case of the sellers lying when the buyer gets a horse that in fact isn't the wonderful show quality horse the seller made him out to be. I just have to think back over all the sale ads I've looked at where someone blabs on about what amazing conformation their horse has, and how this gorgeous show quality animal is sure to win multiple championships & I look at the photo that accompanies the ad and think shoot, it's too bad they put in a photo of some other horse, because the pictured animal sure can't be the awesome show horse the ad is describing! A good many people out there cannot judge conformation--and I always figure that if the buyer is one of those then they can't really blame the seller if he/she is also one of those. Buyers should not take the seller's word for it, buyers should look at the horse (or good photos of the horse) and judge the horse's quality and conformation for themselves. If the buyer cannot judge conformation he/she should enlist the aid of someone more experienced--someone who can judge conformation & pick out things that will make the horse excel (or knock him down badly) in the show ring. Too many people take the seller's word as gospel OR they get stuck on the wonderful first impression the horse makes when they see a single professional photo--when you're judging horses you do need to look beyond that first impression and see what conformation the horse really has!

 

[SBrown]

Perhaps the websites viewed had old information, weren't updated or something. Bad business to put those issues out for public scrutiny.

I had to smile thinking of my experiences about purchasing a mare and getting the wrong one. It actually happened twice, both with black mares and both with large well-known breeders. Each situation was resolved but was a bit on the stressful side and was a hassel getting paperwork straightened out. Even when we had upwards of 140 horses I knew positively who each one was and would never have made that mistake.

I have sold many, many horses on payments and by getting to know the person making the purchase and having a Purchase Agreement signed and in place that clearly stated all terms and conditions, I only had a handful of problems, mainly slow payments that were resolved. I have never had a buyer completely default or had to repossess a horse. In all cases, once I had a downpayment in hand that cleared the bank and papers signed, the horse could leave our ranch. I also accepted personal checks and only ever had one bounce that was quickly made good.

I bought one mare that arrived with lice and several mares in foal purchased at sales who quickly aborted from the stress of their experiences. The worst was buying a famous stallion for a considerable $ amount at a sale only to discover he had cancer and we never got a foal from him. He had a great home and was cared for like the great stallion he was so perhaps that was meant to be.

Then there are the buyers who ask every question in the book, want photos from every angle, videos, etc. (which I was always happy to provide) and then disappear without a thank you or acknowledging they weren't interested in the horse. Same thing with equipment.....check is in the mail and after several weeks of nothing, write them off too. What goes around comes around. Some people are just that way and account for the minority. Throughout our 13 years of being in the miniature horse business and continuing through our dispersal, probably 99% of the people have been great to do business with and many have become good friends.

All our horses were AMHA and AMHR registered and I kept their registrations up to date and expected the same in return and was not disappointed. The week following complete payoff I made it a practice to send registration papers, easier to keep up with everything that way. But, if a person is not organized this can be very difficult. So, that is also a question to ask up front and get in writing.

One thing that does come to mind as being a bad experience was a transporter who promised a refund of a deposit to two of my customers and then didn't follow through. When I repeatedly tried to intervene on their behalf I was verbally threatened with a lawsuit and the spreading of untruthful rumors. To top it all off, this was a transporter I had recommended and used myself so I did feel responsible!

The other issues mentioned in the original post can happen for various reasons but by asking the right questions and offering more information to a potential buyer certainly paved the way to satisfied and repeat customers. As a buyer I know I asked lots of questions and was pleased with the horses purchased.

As mentioned above, reputation is everything!

 

[Mini Gaits Farm]

I just cannot imagine "WHY" anyone would put that on their website....no matter what....it is a reflection on them. Not a good one either. I would never do business with anyone that would put these type of things on their site.

 

[Ellen]

I agree with Jill. I have reflected on my few issues I have had, and I should have had a vet check. I am not angrey anymore, but I have a small farm ans several will stay because I am stupid. And Gullable!

I guess because I wouldn't sell a sick horse. I would disclose the situation and rehome it, if I felt if could be. Otherwise a pasture pet.

Jill, I am so thankful for your cancer being found and in remission, God does work in misterious ways.

But I still believe breeders and sellers should be held accountable. Some diagnosis don't just appear on the trailer. Or are brought on in a week at your farm.

I sold a horse that developed IR. Granted she was prone, but I replace that horse with another. That is the way business should be done.

But then again, I am just beating a dead horse!

 

[kaykay]

I just cannot imagine "WHY" anyone would put that on their website....no matter what....it is a reflection on them. Not a good one either. I would never do business with anyone that would put these type of things on their site.

Totally agree! Just not professional.

Problem is there is always two sides to every story and usually on forums, websites etc you only get one side.

Kay

 

[Leeana]

I just cannot imagine "WHY" anyone would put that on their website....no matter what....it is a reflection on them. Not a good one either. I would never do business with anyone that would put these type of things on their site.

I have seen it before too, once or twice on a website, even while the horse was under contract term at that...talk about nerve, eh? Like you all have said it just reflects badly upon THAT person as both a business owner, the seller as a person and his/her morals.

I think its more or less just the sellers (or buyers, in another instance) way of getting at the buyer and making a little dig at them, I think that is all it is though. Its even more pathetic when names are mentioned.

I guess I just have to many good morals to even think about doing something like that. My parents raised up a good girl with MANNERS!

 

[Jill]

I just cannot imagine "WHY" anyone would put that on their website....no matter what....it is a reflection on them. Not a good one either. I would never do business with anyone that would put these type of things on their site.

You'd be surprised how many people have NO business sense what so ever... that's part of the why

 

[MindyLee]

Sorry about some of the things on my list; just made a list of things that I both read or heard...

I did'nt see all the things on my list on other folks websites, just a few like the "not paid for" and such. And Yes I have seen some things on very well known farms websites BUT I dont think it was because of wanting a bad rap, I think its because the trusted someone, and sold a beautiful well bred horse to someone and got bent over for doing so and just posted about never being paid for it. Also I guess I just seen other posts/websites/forums/and else where in the past/reciently which was removed immedintly BUT I still saw them before they where removed and I guess it just got me fumming because once again I see someone get in a bad deal because of someone not being honest.

EXAMPLE: A farm is having some issues that they delt with and did post it on their website, I wouldnt think twice about buying from their farm since they are 100% totally being honest about the sales. BUT I would'nt ever deal with the opposite farm who they delt with.

I guess I just have read or heard so many bad deals and it just finally blew my mind since AGAIN reading of a deal gone bad because of honesty. And yes there might be only one side of the story being heard/seen But it still just :arg! me off from the side I read/see!

Like I said in my 1st post, I was just venting, cause I just read another post about a deal gone bad again!

 

[krissy3]

There are still honest people out there who enjoy being able to sleep at night knowing they didn't screw someone.
I think some of it is that people are so excited about their stock, they become barn blind to their "defects". Not here. I know my horses aren't all "perfect" and I disclose all information to a potential buyer........ even though I know it might make the buyer look elsewhere. But in the grand scheme of things, they will remember that honesty and will probably send more people my way in the future. I just lost the sale of three of my horses because I was brutally honest right up front in my very first sentence to them. That hurt! But as I said, I enjoy being able to sleep at night.

This is great that you do this for your buyers. nothing feels worse then to get your new horse home , fall in love with it and find out later that it had an accident, or has a health problem. It shouldnt be the buyers responsibility to figure out what is wrong with the horse , not knowing the history. Sometimes i feel like its 20 questions , the seller wont tell you you whats wrong until you guess it first. I think you are right, you will sell more horses in the end , by being honest up front.

 

[Ellen]

Oh Jill, I couldn't agree more. Some peolpe just shouldn't be business people and THAT IS where the problem comes from.

It is sad, it ruins the industry. But, I am just more aware! But I must say, I have met good honest people who will remain friends for life, through horses alone.

 

[Joanne]

We have sold many horses over the last 17 years and met some wonderful clients that I am proud to have as friends.

Until 2009, and even (unfortunately) this year, we have NEVER had anyone be late on a payment, or default on a contract.

We work with our clients and draw up a payment contract, when needed, that meets their needs.

We too have let our horses leave before the full payment was paid based on the signed sales agreement. We were fortunate over the years to have other wonderful breeders allow us to do the same. And we so appreciated that kindness and trust from them. We wanted to do this for our clients as well.

The last two years we have had a couple people default or delay payments significantly. It makes it really hard on everyone. I hate having to call or email for the money they agree to paid on their contract, and in some cases, transporters and vet appointments were already completed when these people defaulted. Trusting someone's word has become more challenging.

In one case the horse was listed as sold on our website for six weeks. The week the transporter was due to pick up, after all the vet exams and blood work was done, they defaulted. The checks that "were in the mail" were never received. Frustrating when you trust in their words.

But as a buisness person it is bad form to put this information on my website.

I do think though that in a perfect world, it would be great to let others know that there are people out there that are a problem. Often only the local people know.

The horse world is a small world, and the word will get around.

I make a point in letting others know when I have been happy with sellers. I bought some incredible horses over the last year. I am honored to have them here and I had some incredible breeders that sold them to me. I would go back to them and buy another horse anytime.

All these breeders went out of their way to make the experience for me great, and the horses arrived in wonderful condition.

I understand wanting to vent. I am sure we all have our stories.

I sure like the good ones (both buyers and sellers) and strive to deal with them!

 

[HGFarm]

Well, to be the devil's advocate here, if someone wants to buy a horse from me on payments, but they have a history of doing this and NOT paying for them... I would want to know, because I am not going to deal with that person. And I would figure others would want to know too, to avoid getting into the same situation. I dont know how there can be two sides to not paying for what you were supposed to.

Or purchasing a horse from pics last summer (some folks it's even longer) and the horse shows up a rack of ribs and filthy- or sick and dying. I would not want to purchase from them or have them purchase from me either!

If folks dont keep communication lines open somehow, these people just continue to do the unethical things they do and stay in business that way..........

So, how would you all go about ways of making others aware that a person may be a 'problem' seller or buyer??