Sales Board Ad -- Very Interesting

[chandab]

BUT in school we were learning about adaptation and we got to talking about cattle and horses and all the different animals and how the babies must adapt to their surroundings when in the mother. This means the baby will never grow bigger than what the womb can handle.

The baby probably won't grow bigger than the womb can handle, but very easily could be too big for the birth canal to handle. Some mares are just too narrow or small through the hips and such to sucessfully foal out even a small foal, so would definitely have problems with a large foal.

[My best friend, yes human, had to have a C-section because of the shape of her hips, her daughter just couldn't pass through. So, I imagine similar things happen in nature with animals.]

 

[~Palomino~]

I can't find the add :no: Now its going to drive me nuts wondering about it. . . did they remove it?

Gage Carlsen

 

[Loren&Rocky]

I can't find it either. I thought they could not do AI on minis??

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I have bred the other way with no problems at all, a number of times.

The stallion, obviously , used a ramp. Stallions do not "splay" their legs any more than they have to believe me, even when breeding a big mare.

The foals were smaller than the mares but could reach to nurse without difficulty.

The other way??

NO, not for me, I would never do this.

I have bred larger stallions onto smaller mares with the PB Arabs, but the size of the mares body was larger in proportion to a Mini mare- we had, as it were, more room to play with.

Would I have left any mare out with a stallion because I did not think he would breed her, as Monica did?? No , of course not, that is just naive!!

I have had a mare, no more than 28", have problems with a foal by a 29" stallion, and, once we did get the foal out it was too late for him.

The foal was about 15" (not really possible to accurately measure a dead foal) so, unfortunately, whatever size the stallion, you run a risk almost every time you breed, with Minis.

For this reason alone, I think mixing up the sizes in this way, just for the publicity value of the foal, is sheer lunacy.

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Wow--you guys are REALLY slamming someone you don't know and don't even have the the details on the situation. First of all, it is quite possible that the mare got out with the stallion got out with the other on accident. Okay, we don't know the hows or whys, but it could happen and you might want to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, the breeder may have been a part of the research project like the draft stallions--none of us know that the mare wasn't in a vet center for foaling. Third--they didn't ASK our opinions. They plain and simple listed a horse for sale on the sale board. The mare and foal are obviously just fine and dandy, so what gives us here the go ahead to rip up the breeder? If this was someone who didn't have a clue bouncing around saying they were going to breed their mini mare to their big stud I would be right with you, but we DON'T know the situation. Really, you guys have all just jumped all over someone when you know NOTHING about the situation and just think about how you made them feel. Back up the bus here folks. Buy the cute horse or not, but this is rediculous!

JMHO,

-Amy

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Wow--you guys are REALLY slamming someone you don't know and don't even have the the details on the situation. First of all, it is quite possible that the mare got out with the stallion got out with the other on accident. Okay, we don't know the hows or whys, but it could happen and you might want to give the owner the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, the breeder may have been a part of the research project like the draft stallions--none of us know that the mare wasn't in a vet center for foaling. Third--they didn't ASK our opinions. They plain and simple listed a horse for sale on the sale board. The mare and foal are obviously just fine and dandy, so what gives us here the go ahead to rip up the breeder? If this was someone who didn't have a clue bouncing around saying they were going to breed their mini mare to their big stud I would be right with you, but we DON'T know the situation. Really, you guys have all just jumped all over someone when you know NOTHING about the situation and just think about how you made them feel. Back up the bus here folks. Buy the cute horse or not, but this is rediculous!

JMHO,

-Amy

I couldnt agree more the fourm police once again jumping in and judging where it WASNT ASKED FOR. Things happen circumstances happen

Quite frankly there are plenty of things that I read or see here and other places that I dont agree with however.. the world doesnt run according to Lisa and if the hope here was to educate the person (assuming they needed educating and planned this breeding) to the possibilites the end result I would guess would be alienating them

This is NOT the first time an add on the sale board was ripped apart here when they seller had no idea and surely didnt ask for anyones opinions

 

[Jill]

I'm pretty sorry I brought this up. I honestly thought it was interesting and not looking to point fingers. A number of times, we've talked about crossing minis to big horses but sometimes things take on a spin you never really intended. :no:

Actually on the way back from the show last weekend when we stopped to get gas, another lady who owns a small "big" horse mare came over and looked at our minis. She feel in LOVE with DunIT and took our card because she's been wanting to breed her horse to a mini. Can you even imagine what a hot dog DunIT would think he was if he landed a big girl? :bgrin

 

[kaykay]

i do agree that if we keep picking on people that post on the sale forum no one will want to post horses for sale there. But I dont think that was how Jill meant it and I know that is not how my post was intended. I was just talking about the general theory that a mare wont produce a foal too big. I didnt see the ad

 

[shane]

I ACTUALLY HAVENT SEEN THE ADD EITHER, I WAS JUST TALKING IN GENERAL, ABOUT LARGE DIFFERENCES IN SIZES, NOT THE ODD FEW INCHES

 

[Jacquee']

I own a horse that was bred from an Arab stallion (not a real big one, but over 14 hands) and a 36" Shetland mare. The mare got out one night, and was bred by the stallion that night. The same person owned both mare and stallion and was very upset about the whole thing. In fact I think she was "angry" at the mare, and did not treat the resulting foal very well. He grew to be about 50" tall. However he was a fine size for the mare to foal out and nurse. The mare certainly had no help from the owner.

When this offspring was about 5 years old it came to my attention that the owner was taking him to the dog meat sale. I went to the house and bought the horse to save his life. I took him home, gelded him, wormed him, FED him, trimmed his ultra-long hooves and broke him to ride. (I'm a small person and we "fit" quite well.) I still have him. He is pushing 40.

I quit riding him when he was about 25.

I was always told that "the mare determines the size of the fetus" and I have living proof in my pasture. Nevertheless, I personally would find it a risky thing to do on purpose....... but I also have living proof that these things can happen accidentally when no one involved wants it to happen. I did not see the ad on the sale board, but it is an interesting anomaly that is fortunately very rare. I look at it as giving hope to anyone who finds their mare in this situation.

 

[wcr]

A few years ago I got an interesting email with pics of a breeder in Florida that was breeding clydesdale crosses on mini and pony mares. It was a series of baby pics of what looked like clydesdales but were of different sizes.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm not slamming anyone in particular- I'm not sure how that came about??

I know this thread was started by a particular ad but the way I see it, we stopped discussing that a long time ago.

I think it is very interesting how people hang onto the idea that a mare governs the size of the foal, and, as stated, I for one would not be willing to risk my mares life on it being true!!!

 

[user 488]

Rabbit, I do not think anyone was speaking of you or Jill who started the thread. It was the individuals who had to pass judgement on the person that posted the ad...........

:

There have been many studies relating to mares size and the size foals will get. Although I personally would not breed a MINI this way we breed 16hh stallions to 14.2 plus Arabian mares and there is never a problem. (and folks, that can be a 6 to 8 inch difference in size) I guess it would be better to use the term "rarely" a problem.

I just think people have to pass judgement without doing a little research first. And it's a shame that people feel like they have to remove their ad because they are getting disected on this Forum.

 

[nootka]

Not referencing the ad or anything.

I never read it and I had no idea of the circumstances either way.

This is my take on miniatures in general and why there are some problems with births (my vet pretty much confirmed this as his observation, though we are both limited somewhat in our experience, even collectively, with Miniatures, and neither considers ourselves an authority.):

Miniatures, many of them, have dwarfism in their pedigrees.

Dwarfism causes smaller heights. For example, you have a stallion who was "meant" to be 36" tall. However, his dwarfism has caused him to be 32" tall or less. He may not look particularly bad, and we all know in past days, many flaws were overlooked in favor of sizing down.

What you have, genetically, is a 36" horse.

The dam may also have some issues we are unaware of, and I've been told that some that are afflicted with dwarfism have internal structures which may make them more prone to dystocia. Either way, say she is normal.

You breed your 32" mare to this stallion and the foal is "normal". All may or may not go well, or the foal may be born considerably larger than you think (and I know 36" to 32" may not go badly at all, in most cases probably not, but try 34" to 28" or something like that), and get "stuck". Or the foal will be afflicted with the dwarf gene and some feature of their body prevents them from being born normally (such as a large head).

What I'm trying to say is that Miniatures have some special circumstances for height when considering breeding. The Clydesdale to Shetland "test" may not have much bearing in our situation even though Miniatures are basically Shetlands, for all intents and purposes, there is the human factor we have brought into play with our "reverse natural selection" so to speak, and therein we need to consider these issues.

With the dwarf gene hiding, two normal appearing individuals may mask the tendency to throw much larger foals and so we could be stirring up a problem even with our best intentions. Researching pedigrees and best yet, seeing all parents in person, siblings if possible as well as dna testing to determine true parentage will help, but the best tool will be a definitive test for dwarfism.

Sorry this is so off topic, but I think this might be comparing apples to oranges in terms of size ratio for breeding though I don't want to think how that stallion serviced that mare, it's happened before and I'm glad there was a healthy birth!

Liz M.

 

[shane]

, i didn't even read the ad,so i wasn't directing my view at anyone in particular

: but i still am learning, Ive never came across such a difference in size , so i guess Ive learned something new

i never seen a problem with bigger horses breeding a few hands a part so i guess it just seems more when they are smaller, if that makes sense

:

 

[Boinky]

I for one probably would never breed a small mare to something THAT big.. just wouldn't take the risk.. I have a friend that has consistantly bred small shetland mares to 15. hh Arabians over the years and never had a problem. Again i probably wouldn't do it just because i'm a nervous wreck under NORMAL circumstances.

I DO NOT beleive that breedinga mini stallion to a full size mare is cruel in any way..infact i've done it myself .. they do nto OVERSPLAY their legs or anything. they are quite happy to do the deed and if they are happy i'm happy! i'd never do anything that i felt would injure my boys and do not feel this is a problem. As for registries.. well you know they COULD register the resulting offspring with the IMPATA racing registry to breed down smaller mini race horses just like with standardbred crosses.