Rules Committe Meeting Minutes

[Nathan Luszcz]

I think good points are being raised, and some really good information is being stated by R3. I don't think anything nasty has been said, just trying to figure out where things are supposed to go and how they actually went. I follow both "sides" of the argument, and can completely understand both. What I don't understand is exactly which "side" is required in the by-laws. Since I'm not a member of the association, and don't ever intend to be, I haven't done any research whatsoever as to what the exact bylaws are. I can easily see the confusion, and will eagerly watch this thread for more clarification. Maybe Tango is being a little aggressive, but she's certainly not taking it out on anyone in paticular! R3 does have lots of patience, and I hope they continue to show it in this difficult and long process of trying to figure things out.

 

[Tango]

....

 

[ionafarm]

Also, the closing of the registry amendment is invalid. It was not submitted at the 2007 Annual Meeting as a proposal. It was brought up and was discussed to "form a committtee to research closing the registry."

So again, the closing of the registry amendment is also invalid.

AMHA did not follow their own By-Laws. A legal written history is not available to prove what others have stated. What has transpired would not hold up in court. And this may very well become a legal issue.

The above by-law "amendments" need to be RESCINDED. Start a letter writing campaign to the AMHA President and all committee members to get this done.

Nikki

The closing of the registry was submitted according to AMHA Rules at the 2007 Annual Meeting. I [b[/i][/b] this to be fact as I am the one who submitted it. It was dealt with according to the AMHA bylaws all through the process. The bylaws were followed completely. This is an example of things getting stated as fact without support. I would reccomend that checking be done before people state "facts" which are untrue.

 

 

 

[Tango]

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[sfmini]

It will not show up in any minutes as the committees do not keep minutes as I have already stated.

I was present at the Rules and Regs meeting where this was discussed, and remember it very well because we thought the effective date should be changed to allow five years for people who have bought young horses intending to hardship them in and we didn't want to pull the rug out from under them. I called Ashley Harris to get her father, Gordon Harris' phone number, called him and asked him if he would agree to that change and he did. We then voted to take the proposal forward to the membership for a vote at the 2008 convention.

Your accusation that this was not handled correctly is dead wrong.

 

[HGFarm]

Tango you are correct.

I have not been able to go to the site yet to review the actual minutes, but the minutes to any meeting are legal documents and records of the organization.

Serving my 4th year now on the Board in some manner of our state club, and issues here, I have studied By Laws, Roberts Rules of Order and State Statutes, etc... to last me a lifetime already.

If the minutes state that it was presented to do further research, then that is ALL that is allowed to be done. If a proposal was submitted for review then, it needs to state exactly that. If a proposal was withdrawn for any reason, it is so stated and that particular proposal becomes null and void. It has to be resubmitted, and is considered a brand new proposal to start all over again, as it is not the same one as was originally submitted, and that one was legally withdrawn- even if represented at the same meeting.

A proposal that is submitted at the close of a meeting, or after a meeting, or for some reason was not reviewed at that meeting and not noted as received, should be coming up as a newly submitted proposal to review at the next meeting. If someone hands me a membership form, or any type of club business after we have closed the meeting, that is not reviewed until the next month, and cannot be considered as submitted in January for example, when in fact it was not documented as even received or reviewed until February as the official club business was closed already for January!!

Once the gavel comes down and the meeting is adjourned, folks can turn in truck loads of papers, but because they are in possession of staff does NOT mean that it is 'officially received'.

R3, thank you so much, your explanations were excellent and unless folks have been involved on a Board, or Committee (for anything, doesnt have to be horse stuff)- it is confusing for many to figure out how things work. Your postings were very enlightening for those that had questions!! Thank you for taking the time and being so thorough.

Now I have a couple of questions....

1.) Does it matter what we do since, the way I understand it is, unless a person is AT the annual meeting to vote, they have no say. It will again be left to those who can take off of work and have the finances to attend such an event to vote on any by law or rule changes.

2.) Notification of proposed changes to the membership-

Does EVERY member of AMHA also get the MHW? Or is there a membership that does not get the magazine also? If every member's household does not get one, this is not notifying the entire membership of a proposed change. Our state club asked why we didnt send out the newsletter and minutes via email to everyone, so we could save postage, printing, having to label and stamp them all.... It was turned down because though 90% at least of our membership has email service, some do NOT, nor is it a fail safe way to know that they are even getting it. (technical difficulties, programs available on different pc's and not being able to open certain programs, crashed computers, and all the other things involved in individual pc's) And, it is not legal, nor fair, for the folks who dont have email, or dont want it used for that, to switch over to that. Granted, one could get lost in the mail, which does not happen often, but we did our part in sending it out, so everyone gets a chance at being notified of meetings, minutes, etc...

 

[bingo]

Couldn't alot of this have been solved if there were minutes in the committee meetings? Seeing as in some cases they can decide what does and doesnt go through to general membership it seems to me only logical that someone would take minutes if for nothing else to protect themselves since at this point it seems to be only the word of those in the room. Which in some cases ( I am not saying that is the case here) would really be working to protect themselves and the registry. Leaving others to wonder

Perhaps the practice of no minutes during committee meetings should be looked at again.

 

[Mona]

Excellent post Laurie!

I agree completely with the voting by mail. I too have said that not everyone has a computer or internet access, but every member has a mailing address, AND a right to vote!

I also wanted to mention, that maybe the "official" section can be a separate little booklet. It could be sent in along with the regular magazine, and would also be available separately and at no charge, to even those that don't subscribe to the magazine, but are Lifetime Members, because as someone noted (correctly) EVERY member should receive that information as a part of their membership, and should not have to pay for the magazine to read the minutes and Association business. And again, not everyone has internet, so email and e-news options are out.

Tango you are correct.

I have not been able to go to the site yet to review the actual minutes, but the minutes to any meeting are legal documents and records of the organization.

Serving my 4th year now on the Board in some manner of our state club, and issues here, I have studied By Laws, Roberts Rules of Order and State Statutes, etc... to last me a lifetime already.

If the minutes state that it was presented to do further research, then that is ALL that is allowed to be done. If a proposal was submitted for review then, it needs to state exactly that. If a proposal was withdrawn for any reason, it is so stated and that particular proposal becomes null and void. It has to be resubmitted, and is considered a brand new proposal to start all over again, as it is not the same one as was originally submitted, and that one was legally withdrawn- even if represented at the same meeting.

A proposal that is submitted at the close of a meeting, or after a meeting, or for some reason was not reviewed at that meeting and not noted as received, should be coming up as a newly submitted proposal to review at the next meeting. If someone hands me a membership form, or any type of club business after we have closed the meeting, that is not reviewed until the next month, and cannot be considered as submitted in January for example, when in fact it was not documented as even received or reviewed until February as the official club business was closed already for January!!

Once the gavel comes down and the meeting is adjourned, folks can turn in truck loads of papers, but because they are in possession of staff does NOT mean that it is 'officially received'.

R3, thank you so much, your explanations were excellent and unless folks have been involved on a Board, or Committee (for anything, doesnt have to be horse stuff)- it is confusing for many to figure out how things work. Your postings were very enlightening for those that had questions!! Thank you for taking the time and being so thorough.

Now I have a couple of questions....

1.) Does it matter what we do since, the way I understand it is, unless a person is AT the annual meeting to vote, they have no say. It will again be left to those who can take off of work and have the finances to attend such an event to vote on any by law or rule changes.

2.) Notification of proposed changes to the membership-

Does EVERY member of AMHA also get the MHW? Or is there a membership that does not get the magazine also? If every member's household does not get one, this is not notifying the entire membership of a proposed change. Our state club asked why we didnt send out the newsletter and minutes via email to everyone, so we could save postage, printing, having to label and stamp them all.... It was turned down because though 90% at least of our membership has email service, some do NOT, nor is it a fail safe way to know that they are even getting it. (technical difficulties, programs available on different pc's and not being able to open certain programs, crashed computers, and all the other things involved in individual pc's) And, it is not legal, nor fair, for the folks who dont have email, or dont want it used for that, to switch over to that. Granted, one could get lost in the mail, which does not happen often, but we did our part in sending it out, so everyone gets a chance at being notified of meetings, minutes, etc...

 

[HGFarm]

There are different types of Committees... are these appointed, voted on, or what type of Committee are they? You can have a 'standing' committee, which may extend quite a period of time, or a 'special committee' which is appointed only for a specific purpose.

A Committees job is to gather information and present it to the governing Board. Committees are to be forms as any other deliberative assembly, with a Chairman and a Secretary. It is the Chairman's job to organize meetings, and the Secretary's job to KEEP NOTES and all recommendations and findings should be turned over to the Board!

Here is directly from Roberts Rules of Order:

"When committees are appointed to investigate, or to report upon, certain matters, the report should close with, or be accompanied by, formal resolutions covering all recommendations, so that when their report is made no motion is necessary except to adopt the resolutions."

Why would no notes be taken by a Committee? That does not make sense? Those notes are not published per say, in minutes of the club in detail, but a summary that the 'Fund Raising Committee' has met and found that they raised X dollars, but still need X dollars more to have enough funds for the parade entry' (Just an example here)

There is protocol to follow at every meeting, and reports from Committees is one of the first thing, besides the Treasurers report, etc... that is done and so noted in the minutes.

 

[Tango]

......

 

[sfmini]

The committee chairs, as I have explained do submit reports to the president, but not minutes.

These are all volunteers, no secretaries, just chairs and members.

Members of the show rules and LOC committees are voted on by the membership, but the other committees have signup sheets and those names are sent to the committe chairs to accept or reject (rare). I had a whoppin 3 folks sign up for the Rules and Regs committee, and am the newly appointed chair.

 

[Tango]

......

 

[ionafarm]

I am sorry, but unless the "report" that was submitted to the President has a list of all the proposals that were IN FACT submitted to the committee, there is still no proof of what was actually submitted. And even if it could be "proved" that those particular proposals had been submitted, they still would not have been able to be voted on at the 2008 Annual Meeting.

Also, since the minutes of the 2007 Annual Meeting have been reviewed and accepted at the 2008 Annual Meeting, no amendments can be made to those minutes now. So anything that was not brought to the attention of the board with regard to changes, additions or deletions, can no longer be accepted as fact from the acceptance of the minutes forward.

Nikki

 

[ionafarm]

I am sorry, but unless the "report" that was submitted to the President has a list of all the proposals that were IN FACT submitted to the committee, there is still no proof of what was actually submitted. And even if it could be "proved" that those particular proposals had been submitted, they still would not have been able to be voted on at the 2008 Annual Meeting.

Also, since the minutes of the 2007 Annual Meeting have been reviewed and accepted at the 2008 Annual Meeting, no amendments can be made to those minutes now. So anything that was not brought to the attention of the board with regard to changes, additions or deletions, can no longer be accepted as fact from the acceptance of the minutes forward.

Nikki

Rule and Bylaw changes saubmitted at a National Meeting are not in the minutes because they are not required to be considered by anyone at that meeting or included in the minutes. The only requirement is that they be submitted to the AMHA staff prior to the end of the meeting. In 2007 I believe it was Kristy Macky that accepted the submissions, although I could be mistaken. As I, who submitted the rule, and Jody (sfmini) are trying to tell you, the procedure was followed to the letter regarding the issue of closing the registry.

I cannot speak to the issue of the measuring change.

You may wish the procedure was something different, but it was followed exactly as required by the AMHA Bylaws and Rules. If you don't believe it, then do something about it besides stir the pot. Personally, I would have no problem testifying under oath, that the change proposed to close the registry was submitted per the published AMHA rules at the 2007 Annual meeting. I am sure that I could also find several others who would be able to testify to that FACT as well.

What's done is done. If you want to change it, then follow the procedure yourself. Submit whatever change you want to the AMHA according to the rules as printed in the AMHA Rulebook. There was no conspiracy. No rules were bent or circumvented. The procedure worked. The change was voted on. It's just that simple.

Even better, if you want to see for yourself, become involved, serve on the committees, become a Director. etc. Although I am not currently on the Board, accusations or implications of impropriety on the part of the Board or committtee members without any facts is an insult to all the hard working people who are involved and working for the benefit of our Association.

Gordon Harris

 

[Tango]

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[maestoso]

Tango, I do understand the issues. I also understand the frustrations people have had with this rule change. I am not caught up in the protest against it because I think the bylaw/rule whatever you want to call it is fair, as long as everyone has to abide by the same rule. I don't believe that it was sneaky, or that it was hidden, people just missed it. I don't believe that votes were bought, and I don't believe that the only people in attendence at the meeting were mini horse bigwigs with oversized minis in their pasture. Call me naive, call me too optomistic, whatever you want, I just don't think that this was the big scandal that many people seem to think it was. I think that measuring at the base of the withers is odd, but I will continue to believe that the proposal was made with good intentions, even if it turns out to be a mistake, people make mistakes.

AMHA is a large organization that has been around a while. It has been through these processes before. If there was really a mistake, or something was done improperly, don't you think they would have remedied the issue already?

I think the best way people can deal with their frustrations is to put their energy into proposing some process of absentee voting, or online voting. It seems like that would solve problems like this, because even if people don't like the changes, they can't say they didn't have the chance to put their two cents in.

The fact is, the bylaw has been passed, and is something we will all have to abide by, at least for the year. We can complain all we want and start a million threads about it, but it isn't going to change the fact that we have to deal with it for at least a year.

 

[Tango]

.....

 

[HGFarm]

"It will not show up in any minutes as the committees do not keep minutes as I have already stated.

I was present at the Rules and Regs meeting where this was discussed, and remember it very well because we thought the effective date should be changed to allow five years for people who have bought young horses intending to hardship them in and we didn't want to pull the rug out from under them. I called Ashley Harris to get her father, Gordon Harris' phone number, called him and asked him if he would agree to that change and he did. We then voted to take the proposal forward to the membership for a vote at the 2008 convention.

Your accusation that this was not handled correctly is dead wrong."

AMHA Rule book states in Article XIX- Amendment of By Laws

A) Requirement of prior notice

"To be eligible for consideration by the Bylaws Committee, a Bylaw change proposal or amendment must be presented in writing and signed by the originator in accordance with Article VI, section 4 E. All proposed Bylaw amendments shall be reviewed by Staff Executive Director (if applies) and then passed on with an impact statement to the Bylaws Committee. Only the submitter may make changes to the original proposal prior to or at the mid years Bylaws Committee Meeting. The amendment will then be placed on the agenda at the proceeding Annual Meeting."

B) "At the Annual Meeting, the Bylaws Committee Chairperson will explain each proposed Bylaw amendment, and the members in attendance will vote 'yes' or 'no' with no changes permitted at that time.

*****Article VI, Section 4E mentioned above, states "..............Proposals to amend a Bylaw: amend the Articles of Incorporation; or dissolve the corporation may be made by a petition signed by at least five (5) percent of the voting members as of the April 1st preceding the meeting, or by a maority of the Board of Directors, and notice of such proposals shall be published in the Miniature Horse World or by mail to all members, at least sixty (60) days prior to the next Annual Meeting or special meeting. Requirement for due notice of attempt to amend a Bylaw; amend the Articles of Incorporation; or dissolve the corporation shall thus be deemed satisfied and next Annual Meeting or special meeting may proceed to take final action................."

Was the height measuring change submitted as a rule change or by law change? If a rule change, was it approved by the Committee and then also by a majority vote of the Board of Directors?

A rule change or amendment must be presented in writing and signed by the originator prior to the adjournment of the AMHA National Convention. All proposed amendments will be reviewed by staff, Executive Director, and then passed on with with an impact statement to the appropriate committee(s) for evaluation................... The change will then be presented for consideration on the agenda of the appropriate committee at the mid year Board of Directors meeting. If the rule change proposal is adopted by the committee it will then be voted on and approved by a majority of the Board of Directors. The Board of Directors may amend the rule proposal at the mid year meeting, however the amendment must be closely related to or have a direct bearing on the rule. ... The amendment must be voted on and accepted by a majority of the Board of Directors prior to being included in the rule.............The proposal will then be placed on the agenda for approval at the Annual Meeting.

I will add one more thing here, taken from Roberts Rules regarding the Secretary and Minutes... It is highly recommended reading. Here is only a small portion as I am sure half of you are already asleep, LOL The association secretary is responsible for printing the REPORTS OF THE COMMITTEES exactly as they are submitted. So if something was discussed at a Committee meeting and not submitted on a report, or reports are being submitted by the Committees and not being published... SHAME!!!

Minutes to be Published. When the minutes are to be published. in addition to the strict record of what is done, as heretofore described. they should contain a list of the speakers on each side of every question, with an abstract of all addresses, if not the addresses in full, when written copies are furnished. In this case the secretary should have an assistant. With some annual conventions it is desired to publish the proceedings in full. In such cases it is necessary to employ a stenographer as assistant to the secretary. Reports of committees should be printed exactly as submitted, the minutes showing what action was taken by the assembly in regard to them; or, they may be printed with all additions in italics and parts struck out enclosed in brackets in which case a note to that effect should precede the report or resolutions. In this way the reader can see exactly what the committee reported and also exactly what the assembly adopted or endorsed.

 

[minimomNC]

Well for all of those that think everything is so wrong with AMHA and the way things were done, they need more people on the Rules and Reg committee and probably the Bylaw committee as well. Just email Mike Want and ask to be put on those committees and you can make everything right because heaven knows AMHA is full of crooks and cheats that paid people to stay home and bought their votes so your life would be miserable.

Maybe next year I should just sell my vote on ebay since anything I voted for at this meeting was useless according to everyone who is opposed to any vote they don't agree with.

 

[sfmini]

Thank you Karen and Gordy!

The minutes for the committees and board and general meetings are not word for word as I have stated before, actually the committees submit 'reports', not really minutes as such.

All minutes are summary level.

To do more, would increase the cost of these meetings to the point that we would have to REALLY jack up fees as we would have to hire at least 1/2 dozen people to take word for word minutes and then transcribe them. I am pretty sure people don't really want that.

The members that do attend these meetings are very sharp and on top of things and would object quickly if something was done out of order. I personally witnessed the progression of the bylaw proposal that Gordon submitted and it did follow the process exactly. I would have no problem standing by Gordon and swearing to that. All i's were dotted and t's were crossed.

Hmm, I have never really checked AMHR to see what their minutes look like, I'll have to see what they have on their website.

you need to just give up and accept that those who WERE THERE know and swear that nothing wrong happened.