Relating to the most refined mini thread

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nootka

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I think refinement is a bit of an elusive term, and it can be a bad thing also a good thing, depending on how it is interpreted.

It seems that too many people use it as a blanket description without really giving thought to its definition, or they use it without really understanding it, or just plain being deceptive (though usually when posting photos with their "off base" description, it is plain to see right or wrong). That may be wrong for me to say when it IS such an intangible quality. (I'm NOT criticizing the other thread, matter of fact I'm still trying to decide which horse I'd nominate!)

To myself, refinement means an overall proportion of size being on the slender or lighter side. I am not really wording this properly:

In other words, the bone density as well as the length of leg/neck/shortness of back and a small, nicely shaped head, small, tippy ears and a well placed tail altogether would be a "refined" Miniature Horse.

There are a lot of horses that have some refined features, but others about them are not so refined.

For example, my mare, Lailah, is quite refined as far as bone density, and her head is not overly large. Her back is nice and short and her tail is placed well (nice topline). That being said, her neck is not as long as I'd like, nor are her legs, for me to say that she is very refined.

Pics of the mare I'm referring to here:

Lailah

My gelding, Mouse, however, has much heavier bone for his overall proportions, slightly better leg length and a better length of neck, though maybe not as nice a tailset, and a slightly bigger head. I would say he is more of a "medium" build, IMHO. Mouse pictures here:

Mouse

I guess what I'm trying to say is that refinement is a subjective term, and as such is prone to a wide range of interpretation.

I know there are those among us that spurn "refinement" for whatever reason, but to me, a refined Miniature Horse is one that has overall the best proportions so as to approach what one might find in a full size horse of similar type....

Would love to hear others' thoughts on this subject.

Liz M.
 

Debby - LB

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Liz you pretty much nailed it for me, I too want to see the complete package when someone says their horse is refined. When I think of refined or say that about one, I mean "delicate" and to me that's the whole horse not just a lighter boned horse who may have a coarse head. Am I making sense? I see a small boned, delicate, dainty equine who is balanced.
 

Buckskin gal

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I am glad to see this topic come up because I can see by the other thread that there is more than one interreptation of refined used with minis. . Since the definitions of refined is "perfected" "precise", "strictly conforming to a standard" I see refined in a mini to be close to the standard of Perfection. I don't see refined to mean tiny boned. I think a horse can have medium bone and still be very close to the standard but I have seen minis that are small boned that aren't necessarily "refined" in the term of being close to the SOP. JMHOMary
 

nootka

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Mary, you are right, but for me, since Miniatures have such a long ways to go as far as bone density to height ratio for proportion, it is most often the lightest-boned horses that are the most refined.

HOWEVER, as you mentioned, a fine boned horse with a head that is a bit too large is not "the complete package".

I think there are very few horses that have it all as far as perfection of proportions and that ultimately, is what equals refinement: perfection of proportion.

And so it's hard to define refined, just as that true "Arab" in Miniature is also elusive.

Liz M.
 

_minihorses4ever_

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nootka said:
I think refinement is a bit of an elusive term, and it can be a bad thing also a good thing, depending on how it is interpreted.It seems that too many people use it as a blanket description without really giving thought to its definition, or they use it without really understanding it, or just plain being deceptive (though usually when posting photos with their "off base" description, it is plain to see right or wrong).  That may be wrong for me to say when it IS such an intangible quality.  (I'm NOT criticizing the other thread, matter of fact I'm still trying to decide which horse I'd nominate!)

To myself, refinement means an overall proportion of size being on the slender or lighter side.  I am not really wording this properly:

In other words, the bone density as well as the length of leg/neck/shortness of back and a small, nicely shaped head, small, tippy ears and a well placed tail altogether would be a "refined" Miniature Horse.

There are a lot of horses that have some refined features, but others about them are not so refined.

For example, my mare, Lailah, is quite refined as far as bone density, and her head is not overly large.  Her back is nice and short and her tail is placed well (nice topline).  That being said, her neck is not as long as I'd like, nor are her legs, for me to say that she is very refined. 

Pics of the mare I'm referring to here:

Lailah

My gelding, Mouse, however, has much heavier bone for his overall proportions, slightly better leg length and a better length of neck, though maybe not as nice a tailset, and a slightly bigger head.  I would say he is more of a "medium" build, IMHO. Mouse pictures here:

Mouse

I guess what I'm trying to say is that refinement is a subjective term, and as such is prone to a wide range of interpretation.

I know there are those among us that spurn "refinement" for whatever reason, but to me, a refined Miniature Horse is one that has overall the best proportions so as to approach what one might find in a full size horse of similar type....

Would love to hear others' thoughts on this subject.

Liz M.

467380[/snapback]

 

mizbeth

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Refined is bone structure. All over bone structure and not meant to be confused with muscle mass.

Most horses winning today on Regional and World levels are very refined and getting more so each year. Along with that refinement, smaller heads (bone structure), legs (bone structure), is less muscle mass overall.

There are lots of gorgeous horses in and out of the show ring at various levels of refinement. Each time the word "refinement" is used in a sentence you have to listen to what they are saying/comparing it to, or not what they are saying and figure out what they mean.

You are right, it is a 'hard' word to figure out when/what someone says it.

The context of course........refined over 6 years ago, 10 years ago, 20 and so forth. Some horses are refined (legs very thin) but still have larger heads. I do not consider those horses (in my thinking) refined. I often use the word "ultra refined". Mime is ultra refined to me. He is 8 years old and still has a small head, small legs and not much muscle mass. (Not bulky) Several of his babies I consider ulta refined as well. Majestic being one of them. He appears when looking at him much smaller than he really is, as he is so refined.

I guess you just have to know who you are talking to that uses that term. Yes, I guess "loose" would be a good way to put some explainations of refined.


I guess I would not call the term "elusive" but "misused", and not always on purpose either.

I just went back and read your original post. Refinement does not refer to overall conformation. Long necks, short heads, short backs, low/high tail sets. It again refers to bone structure/muscle mass and overall appearance without comparing conformation. We have come to think of refined as conformationally correct tho.
 
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Marty

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Very interesteing.

How about the use (or mis-use) of the word "Correct" ???

I know someone that always says their horses are "correct" because they have 4 straight legs and a good bite. But "correct" for what and whom and how and why?
 

mizbeth

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Lets all hope the "correct" means conformationally correct per the AMHA rule book and standards. Of course that leaves plenty to the "judging eye" as we sure can tell from the shows we go to and our discriptions of horses.

A correct horse does not have to refined to be correct.

Beth
 

nootka

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Hm. I still tend to think of overall refinement as that which has good proportions, too. It just goes hand in hand to me. This is part of why I figured it is good to try and get a handle on what someone means when they say refined.

I guess it's about as hard to grasp as color in many cases. What to one person is a golden palomino is in fact say a silver bay, but they still call it palomino. Just for an example.

When I used the word "elusive" I meant the description in the dictionary given the word "Difficult to define or describe" and not trying to mean hard to catch. *LOL*

To me, an overall refined bone structure is going to mean better proportions.

As far as correct, I would say that to me means sound and without any deviation in conformation which would create unsoundness or undesirable traits which could cause health problems. I see it misused, too, and therefore I would surmise it is best to evaluate the horse for yourself before you believe any advertising you might read.


I might say my horse is refined and correct, you might come look at him and say to yourself, "hhmmm....I don't like his hindquarter, and he's pretty thick in the neck" etc., to you disqualifying him for either definition of those two words!

It all boils down to opinion!


Liz M.
 

MiniHGal

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Hmm...I've been thinking about this off and on for a while.

Some conclusions:

Refined, while not meaning correct(nice confo) too, also does not mean wispy or narrow.

A horse is not refined because its chest is narrow or the girth is small. That is bad conformation in my book(legs coming out of one hole, no breathing room).

Yes, I think refined is tied to bone mass....but, you can still have a refined horse that has some width(not a lot obviously), and a good heartgirth.

And also....any breed of horse has 'refined' horses, whether the breed is QH, draft, morgan, arab, welsh, etc.

....

I guess I lean closer to Liz's intrepetation--proportions.

And this....refined....horse should 'fit' with its self--nothing looks out of place, it works like a well-oiled machince...there is a flow and a beauty to the overall horse.

For instance, my dressage coach has/had a mare(WB--Hanoverian) that I think fits the definition of refined. She is "feminine" and perfectly proportioned--all of her parts fit with each other. She also is not 'heavy' looking--ie too thick of legs for her size, large head, etc. She looks delicate without looking breakable if that makes sense. The bone structure is light, but not so light she can't do the work she was intended for.

Hmmph...I'll probably get people shaking their heads or flaming me...oh well.
 
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runamuk

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My definition of refined comes from my background in mostly arabs (and other light breeds).......

I think of an artists rendition of an arabian in porcelaine..........true refinement in my eyes appears almost breakable


Wispy is another term that to one might mean weak but to me a wispy horse is light of body and fine of bone very chiseled and can float like a summer breeze....almost as if the creature is one with the wind........

refined is fairy tales and unicorns and reminds me of something mythical.......

And refinement in one breed can be coarseness in another........a refined friesen is not going to be the same as a refined arabian but both will have that look that to me is almost something one can only find in dreams and art.......
 

Erica

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Well for me I do like the refined ones (or my definition of refined). I want an overall pleasing appreance; lighter boned, longer upright necks, longer legs, trimmer barrel, nice topline, trimmer more refined head.

BUT I still want my horses to have a body to them and not be a stick. I like a good chest (not those that have both legs coming out of the same socket) and a muscled shoulder and I like a pretty BUTT also. I see so many of these "refined" horses that drop off very sharply in the hind end and also very sharp in the shoulders.

Mainly I want smooth lines to follow. I have several to me that I call "refined" (NOT ultra refined) and others might call them medium, and others might call them ultra refined. All depends on an indiviual opinion on the meaning of that word "REFINED". I like my mares to have more depth and especially room in hips to me they need to have some space to carry a foal and I wonder if a horse that is very narrow in front would ever foal as easy as a mare with a little more room?
 

runamuk

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artistic renditions of actual horses....most of these are what I want in a refined equine

refinement
 

Dona

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For me....refinement means "fine" & "delicate" looking....without looking like they would blow over in a stiff wind.
The epitome of refinement for ME....would be a miniature who resembles (as much as possible) a quality Arab.

(as the photos show in Runamuk's post above.)
 
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