Is Baby too Fat?

[AngC]

I've been reading the thread on how much hay to feed a mini. And I'll try not to be sensitive, because if I'm doing wrong I need to know; our Baby deserves better than my dumbness. So I have a couple photos and would like honest opinion if she's still too fat.

Last winter/early spring, we were trying to "free-feed" alfalfa hay as a treat in addition to an orchard grass mix (free-fed). Baby got laminitis. We've worked with vet hospital and farrier. The last farrier visit was a week or so ago, and he said there's no separation on the hoof (not too sure what that means, but I guess it's good.) The attached photos were within the last few weeks. That hay-feeding thread mentioned the topline. I think Baby still has a "divet" running down her back, and her belly is too fat, I think? I don't know. I don't want to show them or anything. I just want them all to be healthy.

I have a really hard time figuring out how a horse should look. Although Baby's sire is not registered, I believe he (Nicky) is an Orion Light Vant Huttenest grandson. That horse was built like a Shetland pony used to look. Nicky is built the same way: big head, short stocky neck, bulbous body. To my loving eyes, Nicky's body shape looks a lot like that German lady's dressage appaloosa (whose name I think is Lancelot.) ...well, ok, Nicky's mane doesn't quite have the same "Fabio" look. But Baby's dam and Baby also have that short stout fat big-headed look to them.

I don't mind the stout look that American breeders seem to want to breed out of minis the same way they bred it out of the Shetlands. (I love how a nice stocky pony looks!) And looking at photos of other people's mini horses that are shaved makes it harder for me to understand whether I'm doing wrong. The "refined" look that seems to be preferred, especially when their horse is shaved makes it hard for me to tell whether my hairy, unshaved horses are in good body condition.

I am worried that I might be killing our horses by overfeeding still. If they have hay bellies, I might be "stretching" their hind-gut??? Are the conflicting body condition scores I have received by vets meaningless? Anyway, I sure would appreciate comments on whether Baby looks too fat. Thank you.

(By the way, one of the photos shows the husband's legs as he heads out on a jog to get the two girls running. They love it. My only rule is that they can't get too sweaty. ...although it does kind of scare me when they get to flat-out running and slide/fall on the corners. Baby would have made one heck of a barrel racer if she had been born as a full-size horse. I do, however, think that running for 10-15 minutes a day is a good form of exercise that I could not provide by strolling around with them on a halter.)

 

[lkblazin]

I used to diet my girls by limiting the hay, boosting beet pulp and giving exercise. Now however, I use oats. They work wonder's! Basically I would be giving them all free feed oats if I had the money. But now I only do it if someone seems a bit chunky. It gives them energy so they want to run around ( intern burning the calories themselves). Also its a bunch of protein so they build muscle. Hope this helped

Edit: personally I like mine a little bigger for winter.

 

[Kim P]

Hmmm. I have one with a big belly too. I was not worried bc he was so skinny when I got him. He is old and his teeth are bad. Vet told me to watch to see if he looses his food out of his mouth when he eats, so I keep an eye on him. He eats much slower.

 

[BSharpRanch]

I posted some sketches a while back to give an idea of normal, fat, obese. I believe the topic was "Sketches normal/obese". These are general type sketches meant to demonstrate where fat deposits on obese minis are located. They are not all inclusive just a guideline to help "see" what obese is like.

some horses carry their weight differently then others do, look at a thoroughbred and a clydsdale, side by side, one will appear starved the other obese when in reality, for their individual body types, they are fine.

I do hope that you are no longer feeding the alfalfa free choice. High nutrition feed should be regulated.

the separation your carrier is referring to is at the white line at the toe. When a horse gets laminitis, it is an inflammation of the lamina, which simply put, holds the hoof wall to the coffin bone. Usually this inflammation occurs at the front of the hoof. During a bout of laminitis there most likely will be heat on the hoof. The digital pulse will be very strong. In mild cases, the damage will be minimal, however in bad cases the inflammation will push the tip of the coffin bone downward, in really bad cases the tip of the coffin bone can penetrate the sole of the hoof... The degree of rotation will cause the lamina at the toe to stretch away from the sole. If you look at the white line on a normal hoof, it usually is fairly uniform in width all the way around the hoof. A horse that has suffered a bout of laminitis, the white line will stretch at the toe.

make sense?

 

[candycar]

It's really hard to tell from pics when they have their winter fuzzies. You just have to feel them and go with your gut. Can you feel Babys ribs? ( I don't think any of mine even have ribs ;-) Is her crest hard and full? Does she have fat pads behind her elbows, shoulders, tail head?

Lexy (my laminitic one) still has a "gutter" on her back but has lost weight in her crest and belly. My Jelly Bean (no health problems) looks a lot like your Baby in winter coat, (very fluffy through the mid section), but I can't feel her ribs, she has no gutter and a slightly tented topline. The body types are so different that you can't really compare horse to horse unless they are the same body type.

How long has Baby been "on a diet"? It takes longer to get the fat off than put it on. What body score did your vets give you? Was it after, before or at the same time as the "diet"?

Personally, I think that if she isn't having anymore laminitis episodes, you should stay with your current feeding program and wait 'till spring/summer when she sheds out to see how she looks. Go from there. Winter isn't the time to cut back feed, especially grass hay.

JMHO and my vet, you should not feed a horse that suffers from laminitis oats. I cut those from Lexys diet as soon as she was diagnosed.

 

[Ryan Johnson]

Ang, have read lots about your furkids on other threads but if Im correct this is the first time I have seen some pics, and I think baby is lovely

. Would definitely like to see some pics when winter woollies disappear.

I have to agree with candycar, it really is hard to judge with a winter coat. Having a mare prone to laminitis I eliminated anything classified as a sweet feed. This also meant a massive reduction in apples and carrots due to the sweetness.

There are two times of the year that really worry me with my mare:

After winter when you start getting a few warmer days the grass will start growing. This is when you will really need to keep a close eye on baby as I do with my little laminitic mare. Once the grass starts to grow here is when it has its highest sugar content. Not good for laminitis.

After summer when the first rains come and there are a few warm days is also alarming for me, as the grass starts to grow. During these two times of the year I only turn her out after lunch for an hour maybe 2 hours once the mildew on the grass has dried out.

I wouldn't be reducing feed at this time of the year either, keep checking for heat in babys front feet especially when the weather heats up for you.

During winter my kids have access to grass hay at all times , ill add alfalfa or Lucerne chaff as it is called here when needed and I usually mix it with a feed here called "Ice" It is a low sugar feed designed for horses that suffer with laminitis.

im sure you would have something similar available at your feed store.

Cheers

 

[paintponylvr]

Baby is a gorgeous color/pattern, but the angles you demo her at are the wrong ones to tell weight or lack there of. To me these angles make any horse look "fat" - when at lot wouldn't be.

Can you get some pics of her standing square? tie her up, sit on a bucket and center your camera on her barrel. Take pics directly from in front of her (not those "fru-fru" show pics of 3/4 angles) and directly in back of her - down on her level. Standing above her or off to the side distorts the pic. Yes she will move. Take more pics. if you really need to take a photo from directly above her back - center your camera between her withers and her pelvis/hips and make sure she's standing on all 4 legs or again it will be lopsided.

Also, in winter hair - they can look wayyy too round/fat.

Here's a coming yearling gelding. looked OK in winter coat - albeit with a "big belly". This is 8 March. Was kept in round pen for 30 days, grass hay no longer free choice, alfala hay fed &

30 days he was clipped - 8 April. Not for show. Here you can still see his "belly" - not as large as just 30 short days ago but still "big" - right??

and here completely clipped - 10 april. Where did that belly go? He's actually underweight! His ribs were not "right there" when you pressed/felt thru his coat. They seemed well fleshed out...

and here he is just a week later 17 april - back on free choice round bales of coastal bermuda hay w/ some of the alfalfa (rater than separtated in the round pen).

and another 7 days later - 27 april -

and here he is on 15 June -

What body scores did the "different" vets give her? How far apart were those body scores done? What was the explanation for giving them as they were given? Did you take pics when they were given? Why did you get "different" vets to give you body scores?

Also from your comments in other hay threads - different pasture can affect the ponies/horses differently. I lived just 6 miles from a friend who also has several Shetland ponies. She purchased the colt above - right around the time he was 18 or 19 months old. Our ground was similar - but hers had better grass. Her and her hubby had worked for 10 years - fertilizing, seeding, dethatching, spraying for weeds; etc - before ours had even been completely cleared. I've struggled w/ drought and erosion on our ground plus off and on have had more horses/ponies on the pasture(s) than they could support - while green it lacked the nutrition overall that her pastures did. Also - she always forgets that she has "bottom land swamp" - that her horses often forage in. The results - in 1 week they "balloon" - while mine may be underweight. We feed the same feed, often in the same amounts and get very different results. All of ours have free choice round bales from the same supplier - mine have more in each pasture or paddock - competing at eating the hay.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

She does not come onto my radar as "overweight" I would actually be leaving the hay where it is an upping the protein content of the feed. That is the way to get rid of the "hay belly" rather than dieting.... She is very pretty, but, at this time of year, I do not worry about weight, and we do not have snow on the ground, in fact it is REALLY mild (and NOT raining!)

 

[AngC]

BSharpRanch: I saw those sketches you posted a while back. Part of the problem, I think, is that I'm viewing through rose-colored glasses. And I simply cannot see. I see them every day, and I don't know how else to explain, except I think I'm hugely biased when looking at them; they're probably big fat tubs of lard, and I'm not seeing it? By the way, we weren't actually free-feeding alfalfa 'nor free-feeding hay, but were being hugely generous. That stopped.
Baby had that white line on her front hooves. I'm not sure how long it should take to "go away" but for her it took a month or two to completely disappear. We had x-rays done and the farrier does whatever-the-heck with her trims (he explains what he's doing, but quite frankly I don't understand much of his explanations.)

I don't know why people feed what they do. I can understand expense could be a problem or lack of availability could be an issue. I don't think either is an issue for us.

Ours are getting hay only and whatever is left on the pasture. ...doesn't look like much to me. No treats whatsoever. No grain (that's what sent Coco down the fatty road to heck, when the vet said she needed that while pregnant.) Nicky has about a half acre. The two girls used to have about 3 acres. When Baby had laminitis, we stuffed the two girls into a dry-lot that's 40x60 feet (actually it's not dry, in the winter it's mud and in the summer, it's a dust bowl.) They have the stalls and the dry-lot during the night, and I let them out in the daytime. I had the husband section down the rest of their pasture to what I call the "racetrack." I got the idea from an Australian web site (can't for the life of me find it anymore; had some really good info) their area is about 16-20 feet wide and husband made everything with "double" gate handles on each side so I can section it off to limit availability to grass or I can open it up when they need to go for a run.


paintponylvr: Thank you for the photos (more on that in a minute.) The reason for different body scores, different vets, etc. is that I tried to find the best care available which is a vet hospital somewhat nearby. If you take them in for an emergency (like Baby's laminitis) you get the vet on duty whereas if you have a farm visit, you can get the vet you ask for. Anyway, at her worst, Baby weighed 272 lbs and was given a body condition score of 8.5 of 9. (I've since measured her height; she's 31-inches tall at the base of the mane.)

When Baby was having the laminitis, the last thing I was thinking of was taking pictures. I do have one photo. She'd been locked up in her stall and when we let her out, she went nuts. ...now I'm having troubles attaching the photo. hmmm, well, anyway, the center one (I think) is the one with Baby and laminitis. the little goof went for a run and scared the heck out of me. (..but if she was running/buckling like that perhaps her feet weren't in that bad of shape?)

Well I've screwed up the photos, but I read what you said about how to take photos, and found one I had taken 22 Sep which somewhat shows Baby in a similar pose to the photos you put up. I think that was just before the winter fur developed, and I think she's probably about the same size now under her fur. (photo on the right.) I was feeling kind of happy because I thought I had reduced her weight, but now I'm not so sure.

I also put up a photo where she was about 3.5 months old, (which was before we could make her too fat) and I notice that her neck is much larger than your gelding. [i really do thank you for your photos paintponylvr I think I learn something from this]

[edited to add]

Wow. I was looking at the photos (mine and yours) after I posted this. Wow.

Wow.

And wow again.

I think I might be deluding myself. My poor little lover girl has the fattest neck in the county probably. She's so cute to me. I love her to pieces. I don't know that I can change her shape more. I'm too scared to introduce other food rations, because they all look like make-Baby-fat rations.

 

[paintponylvr]

OOOO! She's beautiful!!!

She's also BUILT completely different than most of our ponies (but not all). IN FACT - the one mare that I have that is BUILT SIMILAR to BABY is an airfern or TRULY CAN GET FAT ON AIR. THAT mare eats completely different rations than the rest of the ponies - especially now that she is mature!!! She gets much less feed - even when pregnant - shown below in Feb of 2013 & foaled on 17 Apr 2013. She's had 4 foals - 3 for me and 1 when another family was leasing her from us. Some of those foals are built similar to her (2 I still own and they will make an awesome driving pair). The two colts got their sire's "better" neck (slightly higher attachment and a "cleaner" throatlatch allowing them to more easily give vertically to a bridle when ridden or driven). The first one, at least, got her metabolism and now that he's 4, I'm almost feeding him nothing. IT"S AWESOME! But they have her body build. The older gelding has her length of stride. Here's some pics of our mare - STUFFY. She is 37" tall at the withers and about 35.5" @ the last hair of the mane, I think. The last time I measured her weight via HGxHGxL/300 - she was between 375 & 400 lbs. Only about 95 lbs light than a much larger mare at 41" tall. Been a while since I've measured her and she's currently out on lease.

The day she had Rio 17 April 2013.

Baby's neck ties into her chest much lower (can be hard to drive one like that - the breast collar or neck collar has to be fitted carefully so as not to cut off their air). Baby's body is SHORTer and ROUNDer thru the barrel, back, hip, loin and croup. She is shorter thru the forearm and also in the lower leg. She truly reminds me of comparing a Belgian (Baby) to a TB or older/foundation type Arab (the silver buckskin colt I show in my previous post). The body structure is different as is the muscling that is attached to that body structure. Her neck is NOT fat - it is made different. HOWEVER - YES - her body type, in my experience, is more prone to heaviness (ez keepers to the max), founder or laminitus and IR. I also now own two larger mares that are built slightly more like this ... more pics later - and like Stuffy above - they eat almost NOTHING. The roan mare DID go lame this last fall and I backed off on her feed = none (understand - it was after we'd had a hard frost and it affected the pasture AND THE HAY I BOUGHT - upping the sugar levels. Once the pasture "back to normal" - she was instantly not lame... and yes - she has had some white line probs and has had some different trimming issues.

Sooo.... yes, you will notice/have different feed requirements beyond what I already have stated as differences in hay/feed. WHY - because the horses w/ the tpe of body structure your girl (and my other girl) have, has different metabolic rates. Nothing wrong with that! Makes your feed bill appreciably less than mine (

) - especially if you learn your horse (s) and keep your vet bills reasonable.

Here's a couple more pics of Stuffy -

Here is me driving and the guy next to me weighed over 300 lbs (I'm over 250, I think, at the time. Don't remember). The cart isn't light. She pulled me, then me and him, then me and his special needs daughter (also very heavy and in teens) for well over an hour and she wasn't in the best of shape here yet. We'd worked her off and on that spring but not to where she was fit-fit... Her 2010 son is zooming around loose. This is in June, he was a Feb baby...

Giving a riding lesson in August 2009. This was the last year we had good grass like this - the drought started in 2010...

and this one still gives me the shivers (I come from a working horse back ground and LOVE a horse that can properly extend)... She may be tiny but inherited her sire's AWESOME stride extension (he was 45 1/4 " tall). This is July 2009.

 

[paintponylvr]

Maybe can attach 2 more pics - then gotta go -

And yes - Stuffy is only a very fit 26 months old in the ridden picture on July 25th. This was her 15th ride (or somewhere thereabouts) and our daughter was 4 1/2. They did very well in their first show - placing in w/t and showmanship as well as barrels... they didn't give out ribbons at this particular show series - just a percentage of entry fees based on number of entries. They won back their entry fees. And they were "boo'ed" out of the arena for trotting the barrel pattern. It was our first and last show with this riding club - the girls wanted to know why no-one (except the QH judge - who later made the comment that they'd be awesome when they switched to "regular sized horses") liked their ponies...

 

[AngC]

Thank you, paintponylvr, for taking the time to write all this. Some of it, I'm still reading through and thinking about it. You'll probably never realize how much your comments helped. For example, I have no clue about carts, but I was thinking Baby would make a nice, sturdy cart pony. Your comment that it's hard to fit her shape, so as not to cut off airway makes me really glad I "wussed" out on that one. (I kept measuring Baby and checking on internet, and she just wasn't fitting into the things I found I could buy.) So, I am glad that I bought her a pack saddle for entertainment, vice an ill-fitting harness and cart.. ...although, she's already bored with the pack saddle.

I was trying to find a decent photo of Baby's dam-Coco- (had a back-up disc crash) but did found one of Nicky; he has that same "stubby" neck:
http://www.horseyhouse.com/images/Grandpa.jpg

That is why I was so flabbergasted at looking at some of your photos (and was saying "wow" over and over again.)

All three of ours have "stocky" stubby, fat or whatever you call it--necks. I've gleaned that it's not currently popular to have horses with stubby necks? But I don't really care; the best horse neck in the world is when Baby lays her head/neck over my shoulder and gives me a nice little horsey kiss (without eating my hat.)

Thanks again. I've saved your posts to file and will mull them over.

 

[paintponylvr]

We are now living in our new place and have internet and while my chest/shoulders are dying w/ pain from putting in fence posts, I can type some....

Come over and educate yourself on driving in the mini driving forum section. You most certainly CAN drive your little mare and she could easily pull more weight easily than a lighter, more refined mini could. You just need to be aware of her fitting issues! No problems there. Also, there are companies that can CUSTOM MAKE your harness for your little girl that are durable and not going to break the bank. I can PM you on some of that... they are Amish based companies. For pleasure driving, you also want to make sure that you have breeching which most show harness's don't for mini horses and shetland ponies.

Heck, girl, if you are at all "crafty" you can MAKE serviceable training and pleasure harness!! I sure did. Still use it for the many youngsters I have that I'm starting (we have 4 coming 2 yr olds!!l). BSharp - made awesome LEATHER dress/work harness for a pair and is now going to work on more. She detailed it in another forum that I belong to. THEN you just purchase, individually, the pieces you can't make (a shaped breast collar for pleasure style or a collar and hames for a work style, a surcingle/saddle).

AND what can your minis do w/ "carting"?? Anything that a big horse can - just in miniature and adjusted for their size! In fact, many minin can pull comparatively more than big horses...One of the ladies on this forum set up a rake and her mini's "raked" the paddock for her. I wish I'd copied the photo(s) and the info - I've not been able to access it lately. Mine - haul manure (37" shetland mare),

hay (40" shetland mares - full sisters),

a disk (40" shetland mares - full sisters - didn't drive until they were 19 & 18 yrs old),

a spring tooth harrow, a wagon, a cart, a sulky, logs (OK - so this one is a small one - who cares - he pulled it where the limb fell down across our driveway and I didn't want to use the truck to move it- uses too much gas!! This is the 36" son of first mare - now he's 39"),

Here's a bigger one - going to the bon-fire/burn pile (it was BEAUTIFUL too) (pulled bya 37" mare who is also now taller) -

me, friends, folks in rest homes etc...

Beautiful pic of him, too! AND NOT a FAT or "STUBBY" neck - just a neck that ties in lower to the chest. A good BOOK for you would be this one - Horse Conformation . Find it on Amazon... or look thru the conformation charts when you google.

And while I can train for all kinds of things, a "horsey hug" is not something you can train for. AWESOME!! and yes, the bestest!!

 

[AngC]

We are now living in our new place and have internet and while my chest/shoulders are dying w/ pain from putting in fence posts, I can type some....

Come over and educate yourself on driving in the mini driving forum section. You most certainly CAN drive your little mare and she could easily pull more weight easily than a lighter, more....

You are a bad influence; thank you. (I think.)

When I was looking at carts, I checked around for trainers. (Bottom line is that I don't want to screw up our horses on a whim and was thinking it would be good to pay for help.) I found one trainer nearby, but they're kind of heavily Christian (which is ok, I think I could refrain from dropping F-bombs) but then I heard through the grapevine that they use electric cattle prods. To be honest, I never actually called them to ask. I think I will call them this week to see. But if their training methods involve cattle prods, that's not for me.

I was nervous about the whole cart idea, because I know nothing about it. I spent some time researching and found one that's called a Hyper-Bike. I believe (working on memory here) it weighed around 40-50 lbs. I weigh about a 100 lbs. So I thought Baby could probably handle that. The only thing that I was unsure of is the driver posture. ...looks to me like you have to be rather "spread-eagled" in a Y-position; I have a hip replacement so I'm not sure that I could even sit on this type cart without doing damage to myself. Perhaps I'll call them next week too.

Baby was pretty good with the pack saddle. My theory is to try to do whatever to them without a halter. If they can do it without a halter, then they can do it with a halter. She was good with the two cinches, but I did loop a rope around her neck when I snugged down the other straps. Mostly I lost my nerve, because I was afraid she'd try to roll and hurt herself or break the sawbucks. She is so funny because she's pretty much "done" with the whole pack saddle thing. ...bored to tears.

That was a big confidence builder for me though. So maybe we can do something with a cart. And the harness arrangement on this pack saddle is similar to the internet pictures I've seen of cart harnesses.

 

[paintponylvr]

Here is a good reference for training to drive. Breaking and training the driving horse

Here's another one - Train your miniature horse to drive

************

Rain, Rain - go away! Need to build fence!!!

 

[AngC]

Here is a good reference for training to drive. Breaking and training the driving horse

Here's another one - Train your miniature horse to drive

************

Rain, Rain - go away! Need to build fence!!!

Thank you.