Registration Papers AMHA & AMHR

[mistyrose]

It is the responsiblility in AMHA of the breeder to register the foal. This is stated in the rule book. I don't know what it says for AMHR. If the breeder sold the colt as A + R registered then if the paperwork is screwed up and the colt has to be hardshipped into R, the breeder should either take the colt back and refund the money or pay the hardship fee (breeders choice). If the breeder is willing to refund the money and take the colt back but the buyer refuses this option, then the buyer is responsible for any hardship fees.

This is what I as a breeder would do and it is what I would expect someone else to do. Of course I would already have the ownership paperwork done on the parents before I sold a foal. I do understand that accidents happen and you could forget the paperwork isn't completed yet when you say a colt is both A + R. But it is the sellers mistake and not the buyers. The buyer is not responsible for making sure the seller is speaking correctly. If the seller mis-speaks it is the sellers responsibility to make it right.

I have been completing registrations and transfers on horses I sell just to avoid problems. (private sales, can't do this at an auction) It also makes sure the horse doesn't remain in my name and I have someone two or three owners later contact me to get papers in order. I just don't want to be in the situation. I don't feel it is a good position to be in.

 

[Anne ABC]

You gave some good and enlightening points here and I appreciate you helping me to see all sides of the problem.

To address some of the questions let me offer some answers:

The dam to our colt was bred as a two year old and was three years old at the time she produced our colt. Apparently, our seller never filed the AMHR paperwork that came with her mare from the breeder or the mare would have been AMHR registered prior to the birth of her first colt and the loss of her papers due to the owner’s circumstances.

To my knowledge when the mare sold recently for $4400.00, she was still not registered AMHR.

From the beginning, I got the feeling all this went back to money with the seller. I even thought the seller might let us share the cost of registering her mare with each of us paying $100.00, or we could pay the $200.00 for her to register her mare, rather than us having to pay $400.00 to register our colt. The seller would not discussed this option with us, she referred us to someone that does her paperwork for her and who apparently has no authority to make decisions, this makes it very difficult to work out any type of an agreement.

The times I did make contact with her she told me to stop calling her about the paperwork because she had been in the business for a very long time and knew exactly how to conduct her business. I have come to question that statement.

We could not see where returning our horses would have solved anything. There was never any question regarding the horses, we are perfectly happy with the horses, we would just like to have the paperwork processed as the application she signed showed it would be.

The name of the sire and dam were on the applications including numbers on the AMHA papers and names only on the AMHR papers.

What is even stranger is the dam’s name was listed on the stallion’s breeder report according to AMHR.

Never could understand why would she want to pay the expense of someone driving across country to pick up the horses? That would have cost more than the $200.00 fee to hardship register her mare, if she was unable to reach the breeder as stated.

Just a very sad situation and I will always feel there is more to this story than she is sharing or we will most likely ever know.

I really do appreciate all the input from everyone regarding this situation in which we find ourselves.

Let me also clarify that I have made NO false accusation here at all.

In addition, I want to say we have never sued anyone in our lives and we do not intend to start now.

Just interestingly, to me, it sounds like a case of fraud and I do not think a refund reduces fraud in the eyes of the law.

I would have never expected this from this large and apparently successful farm, but then you never really know about people, do you?

 

[Ashley]

The fact that the numbers of the horses were left off the papers should of been a red flag in the first place. I sell several h orses on application. BUt they are also always garenteed to be registureable or refund is placed.

As for the mare on the stallion report that is reasonable. I know I list our AMHR mares on AMHA if they are A sized just in case we happen to hardship the mare in or if we sell her and the people do. Its already done and no back work needs to be done.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

If the animal was represented as something and it turned out not to be that, That is fraud.

Do not be misled by the term, it is just a legal term.

But it is fraud and would be listed as such in a court case.

I agree the seller should pay the hardship fee of the colt and think you would have a very good case to claim this in a small claims court.

"Deception intended to benefit the perpetrator" is the definition of fraud, by the way, and that is what happened here.

If the AMHR papers were filled in and the seller had no numbers to put down then the seller KNEW the horses were not eligible and that is fraud.

 

[Robin]

Sorry this is long- But- We have been reading and watching and waiting for this to come to this point. I have taken full names out (except our own). Now- Lets get the true facts out.....

The horses that were purchased at the Oktoberfest Auction here at Little King Farm were 3 weanling colts- selling with applications for registration. 2 of which were consigned by another breeder. These are the horses that were purchased and for these prices:

1. Little Kings Junior Jupiter- Little Kings Little Buckeroo x Arion Aaprina Destiny- colt selling with AMHA and AMHR Application purchased for $600.00

2. COH Buccarra Bourbon- Little Kings Buckeroo Buccarra x Boones Little Midnight Special- colt selling with AMHA and AMHR application- purchased for $300.00

3. COH Red Hot Buck- Little Kings Buckeroo I Stand Grand x Sweetwaters Rolls Royce- colt selling on AMHA and AMHR application- purchased for $450.00

Now- these horses are all very good colts- I can even send pictures of how nice they are. Their stud fees alone are 4 and 5 times the price these colts were sold for. This was an "As Is" Auction and announced as such. These horses were sold at extremely low prices. Most buyers were overwhelming surprised and happy about their purchases for the money they had to spend. One reason why we allowed them to sell so cheaply was due to the costs saved by not having to register them ourselves. Some had to be DNA'd, some had to be taken temp to perm etc. We were eliminating some cost and lots of time for us by selling them now instead of waiting later. All paperwork was in order- all forms were signed for all parents of each weanling selling on application. Some paperwork was pending in the offices.

Then something unexpected occurred and the change in events has caused most of the issues here. We had our house/office burn to the ground- including all the paperwork, buyer information etc on all the horses in the Oktoberfest as well as all the horses here on LKF. I have to say- it was life altering. Honestly in comparison to all my clients and people we know in this business, there were only a handful of people who were compassionate, understanding and accepting of the fact that it took us several months to re-create and re-issue paperwork. I will also have to say the people we had the most trouble with in 30 years experience were the people who paid less than $500 for their horses or returned a bundle of used blankets because of a missing buckle and wanted a refund check for $130.00. Why is that- especially within one month of the sale and when they knew what had occurred here?

We tried to do everything possible to get the paperwork out as quickly as possible to the buyers. Some people we had to wait until they called us and asked for it, because we had no record of them, address, payment etc or what horse/s they purchased. The registries had to figure out what to do with our "special" situation in which all the certificates were lost or severely damaged. That took time and several BOD approvals. Now- as you can see from the 2 e-mails below- we tried to handle things the best we could. This is just a sample of the many, many that went back and forth.

Email- #1 Hello ______,

I just received another letter from you today. I am aware of all your requests, emails, notes, letters, calls to us and AMHA etc. etc. concerning the registrations of the colts that you bought at the Oktoberfest Sale this fall. I am not sure you are aware that we had a devastating fire the first of Nov. here that burned up our entire house-- everything- nothing was salvagable. Our farm office was in our home. We are trying to start over. We had a considerable amount of paperwork pending with both AMHA and AMHR just prior to the sale some in the office and some at the registries, all the Octoberfest paperwork and all, all, of our registrations, stallion report, breeding reports, all records etc etc. for over 450 horse. Maybe you can not comprehend what this entails. We are working as diligently as humanly possible to recreate this business.

You seem extremely anxious and adament that we attend to your needs asap.

I am becoming extremely anxious and adament that you will need to take a number and take a seat.

I have enough of your correspondence to remind me that these things need to be taken care of, but if you are not going to be patient, I will be happy to send someone to your farm immediately with a check for $1350.00, and pick up the 3 colts, Bourban-$300.00, Red Hot- $450.00 and Jupiter- $600.00.

I have been in this business for over 30 years, we know what we need to do. I am sorry if you feel I seem rude or insensitive to your needs but in the scope of what we have been through, your problem seems very insignificant.

If you feel so inclined to accept my offer to return the colts, please just email me.

Marianne Eberth

LKF

Email #2-

Mrs. C_____,

This is my last response to clarify any questions you have. When you constantly asked about the paperwork for the mares, I asked the person who is doing all our paperwork. She at that time said the paperwork had been sent in, she was referring to the AMHA for Duplicate papers that were burned and DNA , to then send to AMHR. We needed copies of the A papers to get R papers.

Regardless of who, why, or when anything was done, You need to refer to your OKtoberfest Sale catalog.

I discussed your accusations with the sale manager and was reminded:

These colts were not sold registered, they were sold with R applications, and it states that in the catalog There was no agreement at all about the cost of the R registration. What that means, Ms C______, is that the new owner is responsible for the registration costs regardless of what it is, we merely supplied you with the information and signatures.

As a matter of fact, if those horses had sold for 13,500.00 each, we would have paid the hardship fee to register them if necessary but that is one of many reasons we sold them with just the application and why you were able to buy them at such very cheap prices. Those colts are worth far more than you paid for them, and far more than if you have to pay for them to be registered at your expense- surely you know that.

Up to this point, we have done all we can do to decrease the cost of registration of the colts, I have every intention of registering the Aaprina mare R but I have no control over what Ms Hoffmann wants to do. I suggest that you stop badgering us and maybe you will be able to register your colts at a more reasonable fee when we do complete our paperwork.

Conclusively,

M.Eberth

In this particular instance with these 4 horses, it came to a point very early- that we simply offered the buyer their money back just so we didn't have to deal with it anymore. We had 2 problems- after the fire and the sale and the owner realizing that horses weren't bringing what they used to, she decided not to spend more money registering some of her mares AMHR unless they were bred. This particular case was with the Red Hot Buck horse. His dam is not R papered, she was not bred for 07 and the owner did not want to pay for her to be R papered when it might be 2 years before getting a return.

The other problem was due to the fire- we lost a signed breeders certificate for Aaprina Destiny. The original breeder is now out of the business. We do not have contact information on the previous breeder. Now- the mare has since sold to a new owner- who may take her AMHR, but that would be up to them. However- as I said before - we had all this paperwork filled out and ready to go prior to the fire- there were stacks to be mailed to the registries and to the new owners and sellers.

As many of you understand- These colts are still able to be AMHR registered- if the buyer thought so much of them to pay a little more to do so. Each would cost an additional $400. to register AMHR off their AMHA papers. This could have been done immediately after they received the AMHA paperwork. They have all the information they need and signatures that show the colts were purchased with a transfer. Just because the registry has the mares listed on stallion reports, does not mean they are registered. They were listed as "pending"- we do this on all mares that are bred that do not have current reg. #s- in case the owners wish to register them within the year. Neither of us would then have to pay for a late stallion report filing fee.

So- since we are a "big breeder"- does it mean that we are not allowed to sell "as is" horses? I would like to know where this person was when we announced that not all sires and dams currently had been AMHR papered but many were in the process. Or that we announced that many of these horses could be taken R, if the buyers wanted to register them off their AMHA papers. That is one thing I am not ignorant about- everything that was announced is on tape. There was even a mare that was only AMHR papered, but you don't see that person coming to us wanting us to pay for her to be hardshipped AMHA- even though we announced she was AMHA eligible and we would help with the hardship forms.

I do not know where this industry is heading... buyers want everything for nothing. Buyers do not want to be responsible for what they buy or how it was represented or sold. Buyers want guarantees now for everything under the moon that cannot even be genetically proven one way or another like certain colors. Sellers are at the mercy of the buyers and then after the deal is done and the horses are gone- they still are responsible. My family has been in this industry for over 30 years. I have grown up in it and have been the sales agent for over 15 years. These are the kind of sales that make me ask myself- why in the world do we do all this work and put in all this time for a few hundred dollars? When in return on top of the meager amount of money we get hours of grief and bad press because someone wants more than what they signed and paid for.

I know what many of you are going to say not everyone is rich and can't buy the most expensive horses and I completely understand that...... Ms. C even asks that question in an e-mail- if she paid $13,500 verses $1350. You can see our response........BUT truly- in all my experience- the only trouble I have ever had (and I can count on one hand the number of times I have had trouble)- is from the people who buy the cheapest (less than $1,000) or free horses. They expect us to go above and beyond the call of duty and if we don't they cry fraud or foul play. I just hope some day when they sell horses that they will have a buyer just like them.

Since Ms. C. has brought this situation here and chose this forum to discuss it, I would like to end it. We have on numerous occasions offered Ms. C. her money back for the colts if she returns them- we even offered to come pick them up. . We do not have the ability now to register the dams to the 2 colts she purchased. As noted in the e-mail- we could have registered the one mare R ourselves and paid the hardship fees, but why would we go out of our way to help her further after all the harrassment and disrepectful distress she provoked? Her investment of $800. more would still not equal the value of these colts. The stud fee alone for LK Little Buckeroo is $1500. She would have a mere $1000. in this colt with the additional registration fee. Ms. C has never considered returning the colts and has had absolutely no compassion for what we went through during this time. This is the same lady who called at all hours of the night and day to ask and insist on paperwork. It didn't matter who she talked to- she would berate and accuse anyone who answered the phone. We are no longer wanting or willing to do business with her. I feel very sorry for the poor colts that she purchased.

The quote I have always heard is "Buyer Beware"- well I am here to say "Seller Beware."

Robin-LKF

 

[ClickMini]

Robin, since I have posted twice here already, I would like to thank you for your straightforward clarification of the facts from your side. There had been no previous mention of these colts being obtained through an "as is" sale, and I would say based on the sale price of those colts that the buyer should just go ahead and do their own hardship and it was not very nice to bring it up on the forum like this. I cannot imagine the stress of having to rebuild your business from the ground up after the fire. I can't even begin to imagine how difficult it would be to consider what to do next after such a devastating event.

Over the past couple of years I have purchased three AMHR-only horses on application and one further broodmare, 11 years old, who is registered only with AMHR. All of them are able to be hardshipped into AMHA, because they are all under the height range of 34", and I will happily do this as soon as they are eligible on age due to the quality of the animals. That will mean three horses that I will have to pay an additional $600 and one that I will have to pay an additional $1200. None of these had an original purchase price of under $2000. It was understood that they were sold on application (3 of them anyway), and that any additional registration work that I would do with AMHA was my own business. $400 additional is not much to bring a STALLION with good bloodlines to a new registry (AMHR), and I would say that based on the low purchase prices of the foals initially, it would not be expected that the seller would support that cost. Especially in light of the "as-is" sale.

Thank you for the "lesson" Robin, I will sure not post on a message of this type again as it is clear that I had not gotten all of the facts before spouting off my mouth.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I think this matter has been a good learning expeience for not only the seller and buyer but for all of us. I would never have dreamed that buying something "as is" would mean that the horses would not be registrable after the applications for registration were signed and given. It really shows that we should not be buying horses that are on application only unless we are prepared to have horses that may not be registerable. I believe that it doesn't make any difference if the horse was bought for $400.00 or $40,000.00 the buyer does deserve to get applications that are definitely in order so the application goes through smoothly. Buying "as is" would include the applications or registrations if that is how they were represented....if they weren't representated as registrable than that is a different story. I really don't think it is fair to the buyer to have to pay more than what the costs would have been for the registrations through the applications....just because someone paid "only" so much for a horse does not make it right for them to pay again, twice as much for getting it registered. The buyer paid the seller what the price was, for the day, not what someone else thought it may be worth...I am surpised that such quality colts sold for so little but it isn't the buyers fault that they didn't sell for more. To me, the colts were sold on application and that application should have made it possible for the buyer to have them registered without a lot of hassle.

I am sorry you had such a tragedy Robin...my heart went out to you when I heard about it. This statement does trouble me though "As a matter of fact, if those horses had sold for 13,500.00 each, we would have paid the hardship fee to register them if necessary but that is one of many reasons we sold them with just the application ...." because I think it is no more than right for a buyer to have what was represented regardless of what the buyer paid....does not seem right to sell for less and then want the buyer to pay for something that was not stated they would be responsible for. If it was known there could have been a problem in registering the one because the dam wasn't registered, the buyers should have been told. I always chuckle when I hear the statements about a buyer only having to pay this or that much more but on the other hand it seems like so much for the seller.

Of course the buyer doesn't want to return the colts...they just want what they think is due them from the terms of the sale. And of course any person does have the right to sell "as is" but if the applications aren't going to serve their purpose of getting the horses registered then I think that is going too far with a "as is".

Maybe the colts should have just been sold without any papers if the papers aren't going to serve their purpose.

Don't be too angry Robin. Eveyone has their bad days and yet we have to go on and do our very best if we have a business to run. I know what it is like to have a home burn to the ground so I have the empathy for you.

I do not know the buyer at all in any way or form. I am simply saying there are a lot of things in this matter that all involved can learn from. As horse owners and selling we do have the responsibility to see that each parent is registered before we sell or give applications to the buyer.

Is it worth it to sell colts for $400.00...maybe not but it is something that is done and we have no right to complin about the buyer if we do...we can always choose not to sell. I do appreciate all buyers and would want all to feel they were appreciated no matter what I sold the horse for...$400.00 or $40,000.00 We should not be putting the buyer down that we sell horses to for $400.00 for they paid what the price was for the day and we have to have in order what we represent no matter what. I sure wouldn't mind having one of those colts for that price!! We all have a lot to think about from this thread.

: Mary

 

[disneyhorse]

Robin...

I am sorry you are going through this. I have heard of sour buyers a few times, please just know that it is part of the business and don't let it discourage you!

I was originally interested in this thread because on the ABCFarm website you can clearly determine the horses suggested and I knew it was Little King Farm that was being alluded to... generally it's not fair to defame a person publicly like this without getting both sides of the story! I didn't want to post an opinion either way. Most horse contracts are not written by lawyers and there are loopholes all the time on BOTH ends.

It sounds like you will have to come to some sort of agreement... or go to court. It doesn't seem like going to court will be a monetarily feasible idea for the buyer though, with as little the colts are "worth" and what is to be gained.

Thank you for giving us all information, boy can we (at least me, but I know most Forum members would agree) love getting into the "gossip" here! Information is the enemy of gossip.

Andrea

Edited to add:

Forum monitors, perhaps it would be wisest to delete this thread since we now have both parties posting? It should not be a public matter, it is not a matter of someone looking for advice or information any more.