Registration Papers AMHA & AMHR

[Anne ABC]

A Attorney told me one time that if it looks like fraud and it smells like fraud it most likely IS fraud! HA!

O.K. here's the deal :lol: - Went to a large farm and they sold us 2 very nice colts. We selected these two colts in particular because they were the bloodlines, etc. that we were looking for AND they were double registered, AMHA and AMHR. We wanted double registered colts so we could show in AMHA and AMHR shows since a lot of the shows now are doing both on the same weekend. We paid for the colts, were given AMHA and AMHR applications, signed and in order, loaded the colts and brought them to our farm.

All this took place fall of 2006, 9 months ago. We sent in our paperwork and all AMHA registrations came back fine. The AMHR applications came back on one colt after some minor complications which got resolved and the other colt they returned paperwork stating his sire and dam were not registered AMHR. I called the the lady we purchased from and she said they were registered and she would take care of it. After many, many phone calls finally AMHR says the sire is now registered, however, the dam is still not registered. AMHR says they are waiting for a signature from the breeder of the mare (dam of our colt) because the owner of the mare (this is the person we purchased the colt from) can not produce the signed paperwork from the breeder of the dam of our colt. Now the lady we bought our colt from says she has sold the dam of our colt and I need to contact the new owner to see if they are planning to register the mare AMHR.

I feel it is not the responsibility of the new owner of the mare, they did not sign and issue the application to me 9 months ago the previous owner did. The lady we purchased the colts from now says she can't seem to contact the breeder by e-mail and we purchased the colt on application and we got the application. My question is aren't applications a form of guarantee of registeration eligibility? I would certainly never give an application to a buyer if I didn't know the horse was eligible for registeration. WOULD YOU?

 

[ClickMini]

The lady we purchased the colts from now says she can't seem to contact the breeder by e-mail and we purchased the colt on application and we got the application.

:ugh: :new_2gunsfiring_v1: :new_let_it_all_out:

Take her to small claims court. I think you can pretty easily prove intent to defraud, based on what you describe here. That is just so all wrong.

 

[HGFarm]

I would myself assume, that if I was handed a signed application on a horse, with all the paperwork, that the horse SHOULD BE registerable with that registry!!! I dont know that I would consider it 'fraud' per se, but definite misrepresentation of the horse.. ok, just a flat out lie then. If the sire and dam were not registered with R, then she also knew that she did not file a stallion report with them, or any other paperwork to make that foal eligable to be registered with them.

I also, opt for the small claims- you have proof and a case. If you have any other agreements on paper- emails or anything to put with that... that would be great, but her signature and the letters from AMHR are enough to prove she signed those KNOWING it was not possible to register the foal and did not disclose that to you at any time before, during or after your purchase- you had to find out the hard way through the registry.

Some people!!!!

 

[slv]

I know the WHOLE story and maybe this is not the place to discuss it, but it seems to make some folks feel a bit better to vent.

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[Minimor]

I wouldn't sell a horse on application, period--any horse I sell will be registered...but if I were to sell one on application I would for sure make sure that it was actually registrable as I described it to be.

On the other hand, I absolutely would not buy a horse on application. I've just seen & heard of too many issues like yours, and I just won't go there. I wouldn't buy an AMHA horse unless it is DNA'd & PQ'd either.

 

[anita]

Many people many opinion and this is mine

I think its not a fraud. Every horse AMHA registred can also go to AMHR. You need only the signature from the mares breeder to register the dam with AMHR and your colt can registred too.

For me an application is as good as registration. In case the sire or dam are not the parents or parents are not registered as mentioned on application this would be a fraud.

Anita

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I dont feel it is fraud this horse can be registered AMHR any AMHA horse can for an additional fee - Buying a horse on application is always risky a million things can happen sometimes out of the control of the seller sometimes not.

If it were me I would chalk it up to a lesson learned and instead of taking anyone to court I would spend the extra money and take him over from AMHA to AMHR and call it good

 

[littlesteppers]

You said you got the SIGNED applications for registration..what did it say under sire and dam..where there names and numbers?? Or where the spaces blank?

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[Marty]

I think that "fraud" is a very harsh term.

I also never heard of "selling a horse on application" before either. I just learned something new.

I never could understand how people with large farms keep up with all that paperwork in the first place; seems to be to be a full time job of it's own. Nevertheless, large farm or small farm, I feel the breeder should have covered all the bases and possibly this was an "innocent oversight" and unintentional. I couldn't imagine any farm, again, large or small, wanting to deliberately risk their reputation over something like this although I am aware of some very unscruplous ones out there. Let's hope this is not one of them.

I do feel sympathetic to you however being in a middle of a mess you didn't sign up for, however, this paper trail can take you many weeks and months costing you precious time, and may never get straightend out. So rather than loose more time in this endeavour by talking lawyers and law suits, why not end this mess now and bring him AMHR yourself? It may not bring you any "justice" but you will end up with what you wanted in much less time and end the aggravation.

 

[Fred]

Marty a lot of people do sell on application. Which is why everything I sell is with ALL paperwork totally done. I also would never buy without all paperwork totally completed as I have personally witnessed so many nasty problems with trying to fix the paperwork. Its much easier to just have ALL the paperwork done at the time of sale.

 

[Suzie]

I only bought a horse on application one time. I will never, ever do that again. It got straightened out but was a LOT of trouble. I won't sell a horse on application again either.

To me an application is just that-applied for-not a guarantee. No more than if I sent in an application for my own horse, it could just as easily be rejected. Unfortunately I have been to a lot of sales that sell horses with the application and most buyers interpret that to be a registry paper in hand.

I think to proceed with fraud you have to prove the person was fully aware at the time of the sale that the application would be rejected and that may prove hard to do. It may or may not be true but hard to prove.

If you have AMHA papers in hand you can hardship them in but that is $$$$ too. It is a bad situation and I hope the seller helps you resolve it, that will be the proof of the pudding...if they are reputable they will.

 

[littlesteppers]

We bought a few horses on application..and had No problems..of cause you gotto do your homework..with the studbooks online its easy to check if both parents are actually registered with the RiGHT registry..

 

[lvponies]

If the colts were sold with AMHR applications for registration, then the assumption would be that both sire & dam were already registered with AMHR and that the stallion report had been sent in. If neither the sire nor dam were registered AMHR and no stallion report had been sent in, then yes, I agree this is fraud. It should not be up to the buyer to get the sire/dam registered with AMHR in order to register their colt or go through all the hoops that would be necessary to accomplish this. The seller sold the colts on AMHR applications for registration thus saying that everything was in order to register the colts with AMHR. It is up to the seller to make this right, not the buyer to track down the dam, etc. If the seller refuses to make it right, then I would be just as unhappy as this buyer is!!!

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Of course.....I am only responding based on the buyer's point of view with no knowledge of what actually transpired between buyer & seller and not knowing the seller's point of view.

 

[Minimor]

Meant to add on my earlier post--depending on how everything was presented to the buyer, this could be fraud. However, was it actually fraud, or was it simply a lack of knowledge on the part of the seller? I know plenty of people that have mixed up paperwork requirements in one way or another--none of it deliberate, just bad record keeping & then sloppy when it comes to filling out the paperwork. Or they just plain don't know any better. They think they have it all figured out, but really they don't, and totally haven't a clue that a missed step or two can make the foal unregistrable.

It's very misleading to sell a foal as AMHA/AMHR registered when in fact that foal is being sold on application only. In my books registered = having actual papers already issued by the registry. Otherwise the foal is "eligible for registration" only.

Now, since you have AMHA papers, your colt is eligible for AMHR registration, though it will mean you have to pay the $400 surcharge. ($200 if you're planning to geld this horse). Yes, $400 is a lot of money that you shouldn't have to pay. However, it depends on how much hassle this is all worth to you. Is it better to pay that $400 and get your registration papers without any further problems, or would you rather make the effort to collect on this through small claims court--produce your evidence that the seller was aware that the colt was not eligible for AMHR registration & convince the judge to rule in your favor. Thing is, what do you have then? Do you want money back from this seller? Seller no longer owns the mare so may not be in a position to get that mare registered. I don't think you have any recourse against the mare's current owner, so you cannot force him/her to register that mare. You can offer to pay for the mare's registration, get the photos, etc. etc.

all in all it may be much less frustrating to pay that extra $400 & be done with it.

 

[Jean_B]

Sorry, but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who buys any horse on application without a contract specifying that the SELLER must bring the papers current. I don't care who the seller is....if they are not willing to bring the papers current (which IS their responsibility!!!!!!!!) once they have a deposit in hand.... don't walk away.....RUN !!!

Recommendation to ANYONE looking at purchasing a foal that is "on application" -- make a small deposit - make it the SELLER'S responsibility to bring them permanent (they DO want your money don't they??? If not willing to do that - run away). And make a clause in that contract that if the paperwork "bounces" you get your money back. Let's see....the seller can get the selling price of the horse, minus the cost of registering the horse....or they can get NOTHING. You do the math. I think the seller would be motivated to get that paperwork in order, don't you?

 

[Kathy2m]

I'm not sure about fraud because you can still have a problem if the parents are reg. with the AMHR, My foal (I bought a bred mare) has her AMHA papers but not her R, both parents are reg. A and R but because the studs papers have not been updated I cant get her R papers. This is after I have tracted down the new owner and several phone calls and emails and still no updated papers. Best of luck to you....Kathy

 

[slv]

Like I said in an earlier post, if people knew the complete story they would know it is not fraud. Due to some very unforseen circumstances the papers that were necessary to make the mare AMHR no longer exhist. Several attempts were made to get them but the breeders of the mare are out of business and cannot be reached.

I am also aware that a complete refund has been offered on this horse months ago verbally and in writing and a van lined up right then to go and get him at the sellers expense. This offer was declined by the buyer.

This effort alone on the part of the seller states that it is not fraud. The fact here is that bad things happen to good people and that is exactly what happened here.

Yes, it is all unfortunate for everyone involved, but FRAUD??? Thats a big and bad word when the seller has offered a complete refund.

It would be much easier to pay the extra fees to make the colt AMHR than to take all of this time to vent and make false accusations against other people (who are reputable people that have tried to make this right).

 

[Songcatcher]

Always two sides to every story.

I do not understand those who seem to act as if any horse sold on application is unethical. Everything can be negotiated. If a person insists the foal has papers before being bought, fine. Some sellers are willing to sell for a reduced price if the buyer is willing to do the paperwork. That's fine too, IF you know and trust your seller. Some sellers allow buyers to put their own farm name on the foal if they do the paperwork. Just be sure you know and trust your seller.

AND, if an honest mistake has been made and the seller has offered to do all possible to make it right, work with them.

 

[ClickMini]

If the seller has offered a full refund on the horse, I really do not see what else they could do to make it better. I guess all learned a lesson in this transaction and by the discussion here some others have also learned. I have not sold a foal yet, but when I do I will sure cross my t's and dot my i's on the paperwork stuff...I have seen enough on this forum to know how bad the registration stuff can blow up. Hope y'all can get this worked out, but I retract my earlier statement that it seemed clear there was intent to defraud based on the facts presented. However if there was a statement made by the seller that the horse was sold on application and they had the application, well that did sound quite rude to me. I guess I don't have all the info on the preceeding discussion that may have led to such a comment.

 

[Frankie]

You just have to be careful with ALL purchases and do tons and tons of homework. After a few very very horrible buys,,,,,,my list of those I would buy from,,,,,,,is extremely short.

I hope all is worked out and both buyer and seller are satisfied.