paintponylvr
Well-Known Member
Well, I'm not so new to the Forums - just this one. I'm not new to breeding/foaling out horses - have done so since 1979 w/ breaks here and there. But I am new to abortions/miscarriages and thought I knew what "symptoms" to look for.
Bit was bred last spring to Iggy. She was washed, wrapped and he was washed - teased and hand bred. No issues. The next day - he is washed but is turned out with 3 other mares besides Bit. They are left together for 2 weeks - figured if they weren't bred at that point then I wouldn't worry about it for now (they'd all been in season and bred at least one cover first). I didn't end up getting the mares checked for pregnancy - maybe I should have?
Bit HAS NOT had a foal since 2008, but was bred in 2011 and found via U/S to have probably aborted a foal - just before 3rd trimester - no foal body jsut going off pictures/edema showing in u/s. We discussed some of the options - and my vet seems reluctant I'm thinking I imagined it (now not sure at all). She did culture clean before I bred her to Iggy (above). I thought about getting Regumate for her - because I was really hoping to get a viable foal from this cross. I've had FUN, challenge and enjoyment with training this mare and her full sister - Bit "mothers" the other foals somewhat, and was just looking forward to it. Have had other mares much older have no issues and no problems up to 30 foaling out. After much thought, decided against Regumate - if her body truly doesn't want to carry/care for foal - maybe it's for the best.
So last week was a bit of a surprise on one hand and not on the other. With today being the culmination and disappointment. On Monday morn last week - all the ponies looked great. I was leaving on a trip to take a 2 yr old to IL for fitting and showing, so looked everyone over pretty closely and let my hubby know that everyone looked good. No mares were due until the end of March (well one might be due the end of Feb...). They all had plenty of free choice hay, and he knows how to care for them while I'm gone (somewhat). At one point our trip became exciting, so it was nice when in the hotel to find out the the "girls" were all fine. Weather cleared for the balance of the trip, we arrived & dropped the colt off made it back to that morn's starting point & made it home by Wednesday evening. I went out to check ponies and Bit (coming on 22 yrs old) was slow to "greet" me - a little slower than normal, but ... not too bad I suppose. It was cold and windy and she'd been laying down.
The next morning - she was slow coming up to be fed - but did come on her own. Hmmm. A close look and I was a little alarmed - she'd lost weight - quite a lot. In 3 days she went from very, very round and sassy to lean, long & quiet! Along her topline (at that point), but flanks filled out and she was still firm along croup, belly seems to still be there, it's a little smaller - I do think she's pregnant & I'm regretting that hadn't had her checked (by first, hand breeding date she's due 1st week of April). Her tail was loose - but has been since she finally figured out driving was OK, so not using that as an indicator. She ate but ... like it wasn't great or interesting. She stood quietly instead of fidgeting as she normally does. She was off but not off - can't really explain it any better than that. No fever, good capilary refill and decent gut sounds. Farrier coming out and she was due to be done. So we did her. She was "ho-hum" in attitude (normally tense and fidgety!), and seemed to have some problems with balancing. I didn't like the way her eyes looked - told my farrier I'd be pulling the saline and ointment out again for her. Also, called vet. When spoke with her gave her all the "symptoms" - including what I'd done thus far and went over what to do next. While on the phone, Bit, passed manure and it looked fine... ?? OK, I guess I'm just imagining "boogers" out there - I felt really silly & confused.
Friday - she's moving slow and kinda "ho-hum" but she's still eating (at least feed - I realize when I actually watch her that I've not seen her eating the hay - but just standing in front of the large bales). She's passing manure but it's now loose. The vet is on a "real" emergency and we agree to stick with the next day since I have a regular appointment.
Saturday morn - is more the same. I treated Bit's left eye (have been doing this off and on since her purchase in Sept 09 - sometimes have vet out to look at it, sometimes don't). Nothing has really changed - any direction. When turned loose after eating - she doesn't check any buckets nor does she "flirt" her tail and take off (either of which she'd do). She just walks off and then stops and stands. As I'm doing more with other ponies (farrier back - we'd gotten behind over Christmas and Jan when first she and then me were sick and then had some bad weather). While holding ponies in the open - I note that Bit's by the hay bales again... but content to stand or lay quietly. Doesn't appear to be eating at all. When vet arrives, I point out Bit, but we do ponies in front pastures first. Then we go to get Bit - and again I'm alarmed as she seems to now be really depressed (o, I've seen her drinking water) and is ... just not right - even more so.
Vet stands and looks at her. Walks around while temp checked. "She looks like she's in pain..., but ...." Again, no temp, gums look good and are moist and breathe is actually sweet (hay/grass scent - not sour like I associate with chokes or colic). Gut sounds seem a little slow -but loud and grumbly... There is evidence now of diarrhea - along vulva and in her tail. When checked - no manure right "there" and vet reluctant to do any "exploring" for a fecal sample. Eyes not dull, but not bright. They get stained and we move her out of pasture into the barn so we can check her int he dark... Stain shows - ulcerations in both eyes. A 2nd and a 3rd check - the left eye also shows a possible fungal prob? ... So, blood is drawn but won't have results back until Monday. She's started on both a new ointment for her eyes (rather than the ointment I'd had prescribed previously), a few doses of bute, a 1x daily dose of antibiotic, a change of feed is recommended and hay pellets are recommended along with separating from the herd. When put into the pen by herself - she finally becomes more like herself - whinnying, pawing, and walking fast back and forth. She does some trotting - but that's different in that its not her normal snappy fast trot - but it's a small pen. She returns to the gate and her head is up (FINALLY), she's now acting like her voice is back - she's whinnying full throttle...
When done, I head for the feed store to get the feed that vet recommended (a sr feed). Upon comparison, I'm surprised as it's lower in fat (a lot), lower in fiber but the same in protein. I call the vet (& got thru!) and ask some questions - she feels the Sr feed is better at this point because it's a complete feed... I ask about ulcer protection and what would be best as there are new products that I'm not familiar with on the shelves... She didn't name a brand of Sr feed - so I went w/ a pelleted/extruded (close to our Nutrena Safe Choice) by Southern States. For hay pellets, I go with Timothy (wanted a timothy/alfa mix). She also recommended that I go ahead and start her on Electorlytes (previous vet would have given me some to start with). I return home and mix feed - for the first time - she completely refuses the feed and after a quick sniff of the soaked "hay" also turns her nose up to it and goes and nibbles on the hay I'd fed from a small sq bale (similar to free choice rounds but not the same supplier). I go and dump out the feed mix and mix it almost 90% her original feed and 10% new feed, add 1/2 the fat supplement I'd been using for other ponies and 1/2 her normal mix of Beet Pulp. Took it in the house and mixed it with hot water... She immediately started in on it - but seemed to want to suck up the water, so I dumped her water bucket and took it in the house and refilled it in a tub - w/ hot water. Later, since she'd cleaned up most of it - I dumped the rest and mixed up more of the same amounts again w/ hot water. She nibbled...
Monday - seems to be about the same. Like me when I'm sick, seems happiest, most energetic and eating best in the morning after meds. Late in the afternoon the good/bad news comes in - blood panels show a low grade infection - but nothing shows in what area of the body it might be in (don't ask Y - but I knw I haven't thought of abortion at this point and if the vet has - she didn't say anything!). Continue what your doing - when she passes manure bring some in to be checked. She's urinating fine - not off color or scent. Drinking a good amount of water (Monday & Tuesday - drank more than 10 gallons each day - kinda surprising).
OK, this is forever long - to see today - go here - Bit's Colt ...
So -
1 - I suppose should have recognized the "symptoms" as pre-abortion? OR did something going on with her eyes & being put on meds possibly cause abortion? AT this stage it is an abortion, correct? Looking back - if there are suggestions for things I could have tried or should have done, please let me know. Maybe next time, that would work?
2 - what other things, at the stages I've described in some detail, should I have looked for or asked about? Should I have insisted on anything (I'm getting really concerned by this vets reluctance to do any repro work with the ponies - even my larger ones. That's not something I had a problems with my previous vet and I'm wondering if it's time for a sit down to see what the problem is or isn't???). I may be searching for a back-up or even a new vet - which sucks, truthfully!
3 - or is it because I DO try to save money both by NOT doing procedures that may be unncessary OR try to do as much as I can myself (she's frowning on my giving my own vax's now too - funny - I"ve not had any reactions 2 any shots - but have treated at least one for shot reactions everytime in the last 2 years...?? & in December had to treat 5 of the 10 - 1 with severe issues- since switching to this vet. It's weird!) Is my questioning what procedures can be done, should be done, are absoulutely necessary and what the consequences of not doing them - throwing her off (maybe) or in-appropriate? It isn't just $$ - I also want to try to stay as "natural" as possible and I DO enjoy doing a lot fo the work myslef - WHEN I CAN DO THE PROCEDURES. I do want to be an informed owner and active in the care of my equine. Is this too much to ask in this day and age?
I ahd a couple of other questions, but ...too tired to remember them and now, finally, ready to go to bed (to SLEEP, yay).
Hope that this very long story and rant isn't too offensive...
Bit was bred last spring to Iggy. She was washed, wrapped and he was washed - teased and hand bred. No issues. The next day - he is washed but is turned out with 3 other mares besides Bit. They are left together for 2 weeks - figured if they weren't bred at that point then I wouldn't worry about it for now (they'd all been in season and bred at least one cover first). I didn't end up getting the mares checked for pregnancy - maybe I should have?
Bit HAS NOT had a foal since 2008, but was bred in 2011 and found via U/S to have probably aborted a foal - just before 3rd trimester - no foal body jsut going off pictures/edema showing in u/s. We discussed some of the options - and my vet seems reluctant I'm thinking I imagined it (now not sure at all). She did culture clean before I bred her to Iggy (above). I thought about getting Regumate for her - because I was really hoping to get a viable foal from this cross. I've had FUN, challenge and enjoyment with training this mare and her full sister - Bit "mothers" the other foals somewhat, and was just looking forward to it. Have had other mares much older have no issues and no problems up to 30 foaling out. After much thought, decided against Regumate - if her body truly doesn't want to carry/care for foal - maybe it's for the best.
So last week was a bit of a surprise on one hand and not on the other. With today being the culmination and disappointment. On Monday morn last week - all the ponies looked great. I was leaving on a trip to take a 2 yr old to IL for fitting and showing, so looked everyone over pretty closely and let my hubby know that everyone looked good. No mares were due until the end of March (well one might be due the end of Feb...). They all had plenty of free choice hay, and he knows how to care for them while I'm gone (somewhat). At one point our trip became exciting, so it was nice when in the hotel to find out the the "girls" were all fine. Weather cleared for the balance of the trip, we arrived & dropped the colt off made it back to that morn's starting point & made it home by Wednesday evening. I went out to check ponies and Bit (coming on 22 yrs old) was slow to "greet" me - a little slower than normal, but ... not too bad I suppose. It was cold and windy and she'd been laying down.
The next morning - she was slow coming up to be fed - but did come on her own. Hmmm. A close look and I was a little alarmed - she'd lost weight - quite a lot. In 3 days she went from very, very round and sassy to lean, long & quiet! Along her topline (at that point), but flanks filled out and she was still firm along croup, belly seems to still be there, it's a little smaller - I do think she's pregnant & I'm regretting that hadn't had her checked (by first, hand breeding date she's due 1st week of April). Her tail was loose - but has been since she finally figured out driving was OK, so not using that as an indicator. She ate but ... like it wasn't great or interesting. She stood quietly instead of fidgeting as she normally does. She was off but not off - can't really explain it any better than that. No fever, good capilary refill and decent gut sounds. Farrier coming out and she was due to be done. So we did her. She was "ho-hum" in attitude (normally tense and fidgety!), and seemed to have some problems with balancing. I didn't like the way her eyes looked - told my farrier I'd be pulling the saline and ointment out again for her. Also, called vet. When spoke with her gave her all the "symptoms" - including what I'd done thus far and went over what to do next. While on the phone, Bit, passed manure and it looked fine... ?? OK, I guess I'm just imagining "boogers" out there - I felt really silly & confused.
Friday - she's moving slow and kinda "ho-hum" but she's still eating (at least feed - I realize when I actually watch her that I've not seen her eating the hay - but just standing in front of the large bales). She's passing manure but it's now loose. The vet is on a "real" emergency and we agree to stick with the next day since I have a regular appointment.
Saturday morn - is more the same. I treated Bit's left eye (have been doing this off and on since her purchase in Sept 09 - sometimes have vet out to look at it, sometimes don't). Nothing has really changed - any direction. When turned loose after eating - she doesn't check any buckets nor does she "flirt" her tail and take off (either of which she'd do). She just walks off and then stops and stands. As I'm doing more with other ponies (farrier back - we'd gotten behind over Christmas and Jan when first she and then me were sick and then had some bad weather). While holding ponies in the open - I note that Bit's by the hay bales again... but content to stand or lay quietly. Doesn't appear to be eating at all. When vet arrives, I point out Bit, but we do ponies in front pastures first. Then we go to get Bit - and again I'm alarmed as she seems to now be really depressed (o, I've seen her drinking water) and is ... just not right - even more so.
Vet stands and looks at her. Walks around while temp checked. "She looks like she's in pain..., but ...." Again, no temp, gums look good and are moist and breathe is actually sweet (hay/grass scent - not sour like I associate with chokes or colic). Gut sounds seem a little slow -but loud and grumbly... There is evidence now of diarrhea - along vulva and in her tail. When checked - no manure right "there" and vet reluctant to do any "exploring" for a fecal sample. Eyes not dull, but not bright. They get stained and we move her out of pasture into the barn so we can check her int he dark... Stain shows - ulcerations in both eyes. A 2nd and a 3rd check - the left eye also shows a possible fungal prob? ... So, blood is drawn but won't have results back until Monday. She's started on both a new ointment for her eyes (rather than the ointment I'd had prescribed previously), a few doses of bute, a 1x daily dose of antibiotic, a change of feed is recommended and hay pellets are recommended along with separating from the herd. When put into the pen by herself - she finally becomes more like herself - whinnying, pawing, and walking fast back and forth. She does some trotting - but that's different in that its not her normal snappy fast trot - but it's a small pen. She returns to the gate and her head is up (FINALLY), she's now acting like her voice is back - she's whinnying full throttle...
When done, I head for the feed store to get the feed that vet recommended (a sr feed). Upon comparison, I'm surprised as it's lower in fat (a lot), lower in fiber but the same in protein. I call the vet (& got thru!) and ask some questions - she feels the Sr feed is better at this point because it's a complete feed... I ask about ulcer protection and what would be best as there are new products that I'm not familiar with on the shelves... She didn't name a brand of Sr feed - so I went w/ a pelleted/extruded (close to our Nutrena Safe Choice) by Southern States. For hay pellets, I go with Timothy (wanted a timothy/alfa mix). She also recommended that I go ahead and start her on Electorlytes (previous vet would have given me some to start with). I return home and mix feed - for the first time - she completely refuses the feed and after a quick sniff of the soaked "hay" also turns her nose up to it and goes and nibbles on the hay I'd fed from a small sq bale (similar to free choice rounds but not the same supplier). I go and dump out the feed mix and mix it almost 90% her original feed and 10% new feed, add 1/2 the fat supplement I'd been using for other ponies and 1/2 her normal mix of Beet Pulp. Took it in the house and mixed it with hot water... She immediately started in on it - but seemed to want to suck up the water, so I dumped her water bucket and took it in the house and refilled it in a tub - w/ hot water. Later, since she'd cleaned up most of it - I dumped the rest and mixed up more of the same amounts again w/ hot water. She nibbled...
Monday - seems to be about the same. Like me when I'm sick, seems happiest, most energetic and eating best in the morning after meds. Late in the afternoon the good/bad news comes in - blood panels show a low grade infection - but nothing shows in what area of the body it might be in (don't ask Y - but I knw I haven't thought of abortion at this point and if the vet has - she didn't say anything!). Continue what your doing - when she passes manure bring some in to be checked. She's urinating fine - not off color or scent. Drinking a good amount of water (Monday & Tuesday - drank more than 10 gallons each day - kinda surprising).
OK, this is forever long - to see today - go here - Bit's Colt ...
So -
1 - I suppose should have recognized the "symptoms" as pre-abortion? OR did something going on with her eyes & being put on meds possibly cause abortion? AT this stage it is an abortion, correct? Looking back - if there are suggestions for things I could have tried or should have done, please let me know. Maybe next time, that would work?
2 - what other things, at the stages I've described in some detail, should I have looked for or asked about? Should I have insisted on anything (I'm getting really concerned by this vets reluctance to do any repro work with the ponies - even my larger ones. That's not something I had a problems with my previous vet and I'm wondering if it's time for a sit down to see what the problem is or isn't???). I may be searching for a back-up or even a new vet - which sucks, truthfully!
3 - or is it because I DO try to save money both by NOT doing procedures that may be unncessary OR try to do as much as I can myself (she's frowning on my giving my own vax's now too - funny - I"ve not had any reactions 2 any shots - but have treated at least one for shot reactions everytime in the last 2 years...?? & in December had to treat 5 of the 10 - 1 with severe issues- since switching to this vet. It's weird!) Is my questioning what procedures can be done, should be done, are absoulutely necessary and what the consequences of not doing them - throwing her off (maybe) or in-appropriate? It isn't just $$ - I also want to try to stay as "natural" as possible and I DO enjoy doing a lot fo the work myslef - WHEN I CAN DO THE PROCEDURES. I do want to be an informed owner and active in the care of my equine. Is this too much to ask in this day and age?
I ahd a couple of other questions, but ...too tired to remember them and now, finally, ready to go to bed (to SLEEP, yay).
Hope that this very long story and rant isn't too offensive...