Questions about Broodmares

[AshleyNicole]

[SIZE=12pt]Hey everyone, I'm new to having broodmares and I talked to the vet yesterday about them and was wondering about what he said. One of our broodmares has been confirmed in foal by ultrasound and we asked the vet if he would do the same with our other two who we think may be in foal. He said that it was dangerous to ultrasound minis and he wouldn't do it. Have you guys ever heard of that? Also I wanted to know what the average weight of your broodmares was. When I told to vet how much they weighed he said that they where way too big. I used the tape weight estimator and one was 325 and the other is 375. What would you do to since they are broodmares to get the weight down? [/SIZE]

 

[shelly]

How tall are they? That seems "hefty" for any mini under 34"...JMO

Can you post pics of them so we can see how they look?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Hallo, Ashely and welcome!!

We would need to know first off how tall your mares are and what sort of build, to give you an idea (and I never do limit my broodmares, if they wan to be fat they can be, so long as it is not life threatening, obviously) my stallion who is 28" and heavy built, weighs in at 80ks at the moment, which is too slim for my liking at this time of year. That is 176 lbs , BTW.

My mares are various sizes but one of my chubby ladies weighs 383 lbs, and stands 32", she is middle weight, not heavy not refined.

Obviously as they become more pregnant they become heavier and some of my mares will top out at around 400 lbs.

These mares get in foal no problem and have their foals no problem.

I do believe in allowing them to lose a little weight in the winter so they come into spring a bit slimmer and the actual weight on them by that time is all foal!!

As to the ultra sounding, no, it is not dangerous to have it done, but you do need someone who is experienced.

It sounds to me as if your Vet is giving the usual vet excuse of "If I can't do it it can't be done" which is a little misleading but understandable, and if your Vet is not happy to do it you may well be able to find someone else who can.

It can also be done externally, which obviously has no dangers, or you could opt for a blood test, which is not completely accurate as it depends on knowing how pregnant the mare is meant to be, or you can purchase a Wee Foal pregnancy test and do it yourself very reasonably but, again you do need to know how pregnant your mares are supposed to be.

I hope this helps a bit, but hang around, there will be plenty of people here to give you a wide range of advise!!

Pick the bits you like and ignore the rest!!!

 

[AshleyNicole]

They are big...I have them posted in the photo gallary under pics of my minis. They are Silver and Geisha. I think they are 32.5 and 33. I know that they are huge but since these are my first broodmares I wasn't sure whats normal as far as weight goes.

 

[targetsmom]

My regular vet doesn't do ultrasounds on minis, but he has no problem with me using a different (female) vet to do them. He feels his hands are just too big. But he does have a special weight chart for minis that is different from what you get off the weight tape. Here are some numbers off his chart (from his last visit here):

Girth weight

39" 188 lbs

40" 201

42" 227

43" 240

45" 267

46" 280

that was our biggest one, so can't help you on any that are bigger!

 

[Marty]

OK I saw their pics on the photo forum and its hard to tell when they are not standing up right with their noses on the ground. But from what I see they are large boned minis and in good flesh and not overly obese where I would be having a heart attack about it. If it were me, I'd probably just be leaving them alone as far as weight goes but keep a handle on it and just be sure they are getting fed nutricious high quality food and hay and minerals. Your vet can do an external ultra sound or a blood test or you can get Pregna-mare or Wee Foal to test yourself. Best wishes to you.

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

Same problem here! None of our vets will touch it! Drives me crazy - although I'd be hesitant anyway as they aren't familiar with minis and make me pretty nervous. They have no tools in mini size and they struggle with dosage conversions on medications trying to lessen it down from their standard 1,200 lb full size horse dosage (that they have memorized in their brain). I'm referring here to medicines not vaccines (as a vaccine is a vaccine regardless of size).

I did find one vet that "would attempt it but must use sedation" and I refuse to do that - and what do I do with 25 mopey, drowsy mares needing help to stand up? I don't have that many hands LOL.

Their explanation was also that they thought it was dangerous, that if there were a tear it would be very harmful. They ultrasound llamas, sheep and alpacas but for the life of me - can't get them to do my minis. Perhaps my money is no good? LOL

We use a pregnosticator - ancient method I know but at least we can tell yeah or ney.

We have one vet that said he'd experiment with a "sonogram" machine - for practice on his part and not charge us. But I have yet to see him follow through with scheduling it. He means an external on the belly such as humans have. Whether or not that will work ..... may not ever find out. LOL

I watched LKF do two ultrasounds in person - they did not sedate and while I admit Robins hand/arm is smaller than most men .... they do it all the time.

Guess for our area - we'll have to fork out the money for our own machine and do it ourselves...... what else would you do?

I might also add that minis have a bad wrap in our area. Our vets have had bad experience with what they call "wild" minis. I can't tell you how many times we're insulted by them only to be complimented afterwards how different our minis are compared to what they've worked on before. Their first visit they brought two attendants as they thought they would need to "wrestle the crazy wild beast". LOL

Last year we did blood tests - they were accurate luckily but costly as I had to pay for the bloodwork on all I suspected yet 3 were not. I believe it was upwards of 600 bucks for 11 mares to be tested via blood draw (farm call, labor and lab results).

 

[woodnldy]

pregnosticator . What is it and how difficult is it to us?? I am also in an area where I can't find a vet willing to do anything but the blood tests. I am willing to learn. LOL

 

[Ellen]

Some old school vets will not ultrasound minis. Or even just regular farm vets. I have an equine speacialist. It takes a special probe, that not all vets will invest in. I haul to my vet and he ultrasounds each mare for $45. Reasonable, I think.

I was told by my vet that if an improper probe, some vets use a peice of pvc pipe attached to the probe to guide it in, and that can be dangerous. You run the risk of perferating the intestines.

Blood tests I was told can be inaccurate. Although I have had them done and they were. That ran me $60 a head. Have you tried the wee foal kits? I have heard those were very accurate. As far as weight. It is really hard to get an accurate weight on minis. I have used numerous tapes and charts, but was way off. I didn't realize how much until at their ultrasound appts. we ran them over a scale.

Just find a vet you trust, and go from there.

 

[WhiteTailsMinis]

pregnosticator . What is it and how difficult is it to us?? I am also in an area where I can't find a vet willing to do anything but the blood tests. I am willing to learn. LOL

it's portable so can be used in the field - which is convenient. Early stages you start in front of their hip, later in gestation you do their underside down near the udder (as the foal drops later in gestation). It gives a signal in the screen that indicates pregnancy or not by the spikes it gives off (sometimes false readings can be gotten by full bladder, infection or simply pointing the wrong way). It takes quite a bit of patience actually but you'll learn the technique of "aiming" correctly pretty quickly. LOL

Runs on rechargable battery. Best to clip/shave the area you are touching with the probe. Keep well lubed with vegetable oil and press firmly (this is done on the outside of the mare - not internally).

Here's a link to learn more ..... will tell you how to use and interpret the results -

http://www.animark.us/Pregtest_Owners_Manual.pdf

 

[End Level Farms]

I prefer NOT to ultrasound internally as there are actually a lot of risks. I personally have known 3 horses who have died because of tearing in the rectum from the vet/ultrasound wand.

And of all three the mares were sedated and two were at reproduction clinics so there was a lessened chance of any issues and unfortunately there were issues.

All three were seasoned broodmares who had never had problems before who had been rectally ultra sounded before.

The one mare was 14. 1 1/2 HH One was 15.2 HH and the last one was 17HH.

Tearing and issues arising from Ultra Sounds are Rare. I just wanted to point out that there are risks.

I have had mares come to me ultra sounded and I do ultra sound my paint mares due to the possibility of twins. But other than that I prefer the external ultrasounds.

 

[JWC sr.]

We heard all the horror stories about ultra sound and stayed aways from it for years because of them. But when our herd got to the point it was at 6 years ago with so many mares, Cindy broke down and bought one. Martha Hickham of El Rancho Loco came out and worked with Cindy for an entire day and showed her the proper way to do ultra sound and it was the best thing we have done for our mini's. No more guessing and a great way to monitor any problems that may be going on. And yes there are problems that if caught early can be of little consequence, but left alone can cause severe problems for the mare.

Now days with practice Cindy can see ovulation in the mares and also catch a pregnacy at as little as 21 days or so. She then checks them again at 3 and 6 months to make sure everything is going okay. the detail you can see is amazing.

I would suggest you find a vet that can do the work for you, even if that means getting a new Vet. Llamas, Alpacas etc. are harder to work with than mini's are so there is no reason if they are doing those that they do not do mini's.

The pictures of your mares look like they are on the heavy side, but not grossly so. I agree with some of the other posters in that I would cut back on the feed and stubstitute in good quality hay to reduce the weight a little. It will make it eaiser for them to sucessfully carry and birth the coming foals.

Good Luck,

 

[Ridgerunner]

AshleyNicole, where exactly are you in Arkansas? I'm in Missouri, but just barely. My vet's an equine reproduction specialist, and he's USed mares as small as 28" for me with no problem. I know he has clients all over north Arkansas. Besides, he's used to seeing 'fluffy' broodmares!

Melba

 

[Katiean]

It really gets me that so many vets "don't have the equipment" to ultrasound a mini. They ultrasound dogs. So whats the problem?

:wacko Kinda nuts if you ask me.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well, my bitches have always been done externally.

As to the safety issue, sorry but there are "horror stories" attached to any procedure.

I know of a number of mares that have died giving birth, for example!

Mares are US'd at the College here all day every day, with no problems whatsoever.

My mares are US'd there (when I do it, which I rarely do these days) using full sized horse equipment, again with no problems whatsoever, although I will tell you that the person doing it does little else, and so is an expert.

If your Vet does not feel comfortable doing it I would never pressurise them into a procedure they are not happy doing.

There will be other Vets who can do it for you and your Vet should not mind (tell them, obviously)

I have heard good things of the pregnosticator, but I do know it has to be worked with , as said, before you can get it right.

 

[AshleyNicole]

I live in central Arkansas near little rock so I'm guessing thats a little too far for your vet Ridgerunner

I'm almost sure that Geisha is in foal but it would be nice to know. I may try a few more vets in the area and if that doesn't work then I'll just get the wee foal. It's kind of frustrating because like someone said they do ultrasound dogs. Anyway thanks everyone for your help

 

[JWC sr.]

Ashley,

You have one of the best trainers over in Hot Springs, Belinda Bagby of B & B training. I bet she would be glad to point you towards a competant mini vet that can fill your needs. Tell Belinda that I referred you if you would like we have known her for many years.

Good Luck

 

[Ridgerunner]

I doubt you'd want to pay that farm call, Ashley!

Although somebody wanted him to come to Kentucky last year! Twice a week, no less! Guess they have more money than I do!

Melba

 

[White Socks Miniature]

I hope you have found some way to preg. check your mare!

As I said in a previous post I am very lucky to have 2 vets that work together who have a working knowledge with minis and have the proper ultrasounding equipment! I work in the field and also know a reproductive specialist who is VERY good with all breeds of horses and also likes the minis!

Just a note though, ultrasounding a dog is different than ultrasounding a horse, A dog is much easier to do external ultrasounds on as thier abdomens are less dense and therefore the frequency of the ultrasound penetrates much easier so it is easier to preg. check them or do ultrasounds of thier internal organs. Horses on the other hand are much more dense due to the amount of intestinal tract and the way it works, it can be very difficult to see around loops of bowel which contain fiberous feedstuffs. and therefore the uterus cannot be visualized via external methods until later in a pregnancy where the uterus is close to or touching the abdominal wall. To do a trans rectal ultrasound does require specific knowledge/ proper equipment and if your vet doesnt have it, I do not think it is appropriate if they try. I would try a blood test, or wait until wee foal is an option?

It must be very difficult to have to wait to see if she is pregnant or not as I always feel that there is alot of planning that needs to go on before the foal arrives.

Good luck and hopefully you find out soon!

Keep us updated!