Question about AI registry requirements

[StarRidgeAcres]

Sue,

I have no doubt you have extensive experience with various horse-related things, including what it takes to be successful with AI. But instead of being discouraged, I plan to investigate it for myself and see what the costs are. I can see if you have a stallion that won't just mount anything, you'll need you own mares that are in heat, etc. But I know for sure that two of my three will mount (and complete) on anything at any time!

I also know that Corona's semen has a fairly long shelf life (I know that's not the term, but you guys know what I mean). Now I just need to find out about my other stallions and go from there.

I'm very lucky in that I have an equine-only hospital less than 35 miles away. They can collect anytime, anyday. Obviously, there is a fee. I also realize that the burden is really on the mare owner. That is the side that is going to take the expertise, the timing, etc. to make the whole circle successful.

So, I have two VERY experience (specifically with AI) mini farms that have offered to advise me. I plan on talking with both this week as well as my vet. I'm not saying this is doable for me, I'm just saying I'm going to investigate and post what I find. Those that are interested in it can read and respond. Those that aren't don't have to. Pretty simple.

It's like an adventure! We'll see where it leads!

 

[kaykay]

Sue I am not at all trying to offend anyone. Im just talking in general terms that because AI is used so rarely in small equine, there are a lot of myths about it.

I do know the prices I was quoted on collecting and shipping were not near as high as what you were priced. Collection is 100.00 and shipping is 50.00 and includes the container. I am lucky in that I live 2 mins from a farm doing this. They take care of all the shipping etc. Basically all I have to do is take my stallion down there and they handle everything else.

I strongly agree that most of the burden is on the mare owner. YOu do have to have a vet on the mares side that knows what they are doing.

If anyone is interested here is their website

autumn lane foaling facility

 

[Riverdance]

I am not trying to discourage anyone, but to let everyone know what is involved with AI breeding. Parmala, I hope that you are able to work it all out and that it goes well for you. All I am doing is playing the devil's advocate.

There are stallions who will mount anything; heck, I have a cement stallion in front of my barn that I have had two stallions mount (it is funny to watch

), but getting them to ejaculate into a sleave is different and can be difficult.

All I am suggesting is that you first, have the stallions semen tested for longevity, make sure that the sperm looks normal too. Then it has to be mixed with the extender and checked again. First for 24 hours then for 48 hours. This should be done at least once a month throughout the whole breeding season, as stallions furtility is going to decrease as the season goes on, or as he is asked to ejaculate on a daily, sometmes twice a day basis. I can not tell you how dissapointing it is to have your mare all ready for breeding and have the vet check the mobility of the seemen when it arrives to find out that most of it is dead. Second, you need to be sure your stallion will perform and ejaculate on command. Third, you need to have a vet willing to come out at a moments notice, and fourth, you have to be available for the calls when they come in asking for the semen. It kind of makes it hard to go to shows or even run shopping errands.

Most people on this board just have no idea what is involved. It all sounds great, that is, until one tries it.

KayKay, you are not offending me. There are many people who just have no idea just what is involved.

As for prices for shipped semen. That is what I was charged throughout the country for Morgan shipped semen. A couple of times it was $300, but mostly $250. The one who owns the stallion has to provide the containers and there is probably an added cost for wear and tear and insurance to get the container returned. If I recall correctly, there was some money returned if the container was recieved back within a weeks time.

The financial burden is on the mare owner, but the burden of providing mobile, healthy semen at a moments notice is of course, on the stallion owners.

To be honest with you, I wish it was as easy in Mini's as it was in Morgans. There are some really nice stallions out there that I would love to use. I just know that with my own vets, the ones who are experts at it, only the female one is willing to do Ultrasound on my mares. Even then, she has trouble with some of my mares.

Parmala, I wish you all the best and hope that it works well for you. You will have to let us all know how it goes. All I am trying to do here is give you the whole picture.

 

[Leeside]

There is truth into what both Parmela and Sue are saying. I have personal experience with AI in minis, having bred the first foal using shipped semen when AMHA first allowed the practice in 2000. The timing on my end, the mare owner, was crucial. You have to know what follicle size to expect ovulation to occur at. This is something that can vary from one mare to the next. Keeping track of my mare's cycle with ultrasounds, inseminating the mare, and paying for the collection of the stallion and shipping fees was $2400. That was from only one cycle. Luckily the mare settled. My pocketbook was not going to commit to another one, that's for sure!

I shared my results with the AMHA AI committee. I was told that the results from shipped semen was dismal due to the shipping quality of the stallions used. The committee chair was personally involved in collecting and shipping stallions as well. She was working with top repro vets on both ends. I believe they experimented with different extenders, all with poor results. There are breeds of horses that simply don't ship well. Some will cool, some can be frozen, but not all can. Some stallions don't ship well period. All I know is the stallion that I bred my mare to was used on three mares and mine was the only one to settle. Also of note, the two mares that did not settle were bred using "newer" semen than mine. My shipment came from the other side of the country, where theirs were shipped in state, or in a nearby state.

When I registered the resulting foal, he was the only live foal from shipped semen that year. He was still the only one nearly five years later. I have not checked recently to see if others have since been registered.

If anyone would like additional info on the mare owners end, please let me know.

 

[albahurst]

I checked into this over the past couple of years. Three equine repro specialist vets discouraged me from doing AI. The timing factor, cost, and effectiveness were just too uncertain. I also checked with a well-known farm doing their own collecting and they discouraged me! Said live stud service was the way to go. The reasons all these posts have already mentioned were what was cited by the specialists and the farm. So, I gave up on the idea. But, it will be interesting to hear what happens for you, Parmela- keep us posted.

Peggy

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I checked into this over the past couple of years. Three equine repro specialist vets discouraged me from doing AI. The timing factor, cost, and effectiveness were just too uncertain. I also checked with a well-known farm doing their own collecting and they discouraged me! Said live stud service was the way to go. The reasons all these posts have already mentioned were what was cited by the specialists and the farm. So, I gave up on the idea. But, it will be interesting to hear what happens for you, Parmela- keep us posted. Peggy

Will do Peggy!

While I'm here, I just don't see the cost thing. Let's say I'm going to use an outside stallion. As the mare owner I'm going to pay for:

Stud fee

Mare care

Transportation to/from (this could easily be $1000)

1-2 ultrasounds

culture/cytology

coggins/2 health certs

their farm's cost for farrier, etc.

...and my mare travels a long distance and I risk losing the foal due to stress of the trip (which HAS happened to me).

...and I rely on THEM to tell me that my mare is bred. I've had a mare come home from being bred only to find out she's open (different from the one where I lost the foal on the trip home).

If I do AI, as the mare owner I'm going to pay for

Stud fee

collection fee (per x times)

Express mail fee

2-3 ultrasounds

...and my mare never leaves my supervision.

Hmmm. Is it really more expensive? (Seriously, not rhetorical)

 

[kaykay]

Is it more?? For me no way could it be more. As you can see on their site they only charge 35.00 to inseminate a mare. Also their 100 collection fee includes evaluating the semen. So for ME it is much less for me to AI verses transporting a mare etc.

I think maybe doing more research with farms that do this so that you dont have to pay vet fees. The trick is finding one in your area.

I dont want to name the farm that uses my neighbor (just dont feel its my place as they are very well known) but I was told the conception rate was very high and no different from the big horses they have done.

 

[albahurst]

"Is it more?? For me no way could it be more. As you can see on their site they only charge 35.00 to inseminate a mare. Also their 100 collection fee includes evaluating the semen. So for ME it is much less for me to AI verses transporting a mare etc.

I think maybe doing more research with farms that do this so that you dont have to pay vet fees. The trick is finding one in your area. "

For me, the vet fees were really high, so I decided against taking the gamble. It was in the neighborhood of over $1000 per mare per cycle.

You are fortunate to have a facility near you to do it- I think the vet fees are huge in some areas.

Peggy

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Oh my goodness...

I truely do feel a lot of the problems with AI in all breeds are caused by the owners and the "professionals" who claim they are experts. Not that I'm saying ANYONE here is incompetant

Please don't interprite it that way... I have worked for people, veterinarians included, who's technique and procedures are enough to make me cry. Do they get mares bred? Yup! But are the pregnancy rates as high as they can be? Absolutely not. Mares (and stallions) are called "subfertile" and are neglected all the time. Many times its not their fault!

Most places that I've worked for charge between $150 and $200 plus shipping (which averages around $60). There is no need to own expensive shippers... I purchase high quality disposable shippers (ESTs, Equine Semen Transporters... NOT the smaller Equine Clippers, Equine Expresses, etc... all disposables are NOT equal!) and charge them to the mare owner. They are $35. If the mare owner wishes to return them for another use, they may do so, at their expense, without being charged for another new one next shipment. Everyone wins!

I think that a big part of the problem is finding the correct way to make each stallion work correctly. There are many extenders to use, each one works with a different group of stallions. Too many people use one as an "one size fits all", and that is just bad business.

As far as frozen semen, it is very variable. It is said that 1/3 of stallions do well, 1/3 do okay, and 1/3 just don't tolerate it. That's true with all breeds. We do need more experimentation, and I personally agree with the thought that the breed as a whole is resistant to change

It is expensive, and mini people don't always have the money that some of these big QH or other breed farms do. A collection for frozen semen is expensive, on the order of $500. What we need is someone to go around and freeze various stallions and find out how well they survive the process I volunteer! I've always wanted to own a mobile semen freezing/collecting/shipping business. You don't need a vet in most places. If there is enough interest I'll travel the country!

Also, doing "test cools", ie testing a stallion in a variety of different extenders, is a wonderful thing to do every spring before the start of the shipping season. It is not required every month... keeping a "hold back" sample with every shipment is a great indicator of quality and quality control, but a full test every month is excessive and expensive. The quality of a stallion's ejaculate should go nowhere but up through the course of a normal season, unless some injury or severe overuse (breeding more often than every other day, or 5+ times/wk) takes place. With overuse you won't see a decrease in quality, just in quantity. Injuries can show up in the ejaculate anytime from immediately to two months later.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thanks Nathan, for your input! It's great to hear from someone who's actually done it.

 

[Minimor]

If I do AI, as the mare owner I'm going to pay for
Stud fee

collection fee (per x times)

Express mail fee

2-3 ultrasounds

...and my mare never leaves my supervision

Be advised that you may need more than that, depending on the stallion owner. I did a quick hunt for some of the old Morgan breeding contracts I have here but didn't find them--they're in the file drawer, but it's a mess...

anyway, I do know that some of these contracts I have from various farms has wording that states the mare owner must provide proof of negative coggins, negative culture, current vaccinations, etc etc. I never quite "got" why they'd care about coggins when the mare won't be anywhere near their farm or horses (these are contracts for AI with transported semen) but I can see why they specify a negative culture--what's the point in collecting and shipping semen for a mare that has a uterine infection and isn't likely to conceive or carry the pregnancy anyway? Stallion owner isn't out anything, since mare owner pays all expenses, but at the same time an open mare brings down the stallion's conception rate, and a stallion owner doesn't want that. Maybe Mini contracts are less specific, but with the Morgan ones it wasn't often that there was anything you really saved by breeding with transported semen.

It is a valid point, though, about keeping the mare at home.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I require vaccines and coggins for my QH... I guess my point is I'm not going to waste time breeding a mare who's owners don't keep up on regular stuff, never mind breeding. Its pretty standard practice. If you DON'T vaccinate and do coggins then you have a point of view that is nontraditional, or as simple as trying to save money. And from the stallion owner's perspective, there is nothing worse than a penny pinching breeder. Its so easy to skip something important to save $30 and end up having to start all over again with a new cycle. That's a great way to drop a good stallion's statistics in a single months.

 

[Becky]

I think the problem you will run into with many mare owners in miniature horses, is lack of veterinarians that can or are willing to ultrasound miniature mares. This is crucial to find out where they are in a a cycle to inseminate them and has been pointed out, must be done numerous times during a cycle. So, from the mare owners standpoint, AI is going to be pretty involved and pricey.

 

[Riverdance]

I think the problem you will run into with many mare owners in miniature horses, is lack of veterinarians that can or are willing to ultrasound miniature mares. This is crucial to find out where they are in a a cycle to inseminate them and has been pointed out, must be done numerous times during a cycle. So, from the mare owners standpoint, AI is going to be pretty involved and pricey.

My point exactly.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I think the problem you will run into with many mare owners in miniature horses, is lack of veterinarians that can or are willing to ultrasound miniature mares. This is crucial to find out where they are in a a cycle to inseminate them and has been pointed out, must be done numerous times during a cycle. So, from the mare owners standpoint, AI is going to be pretty involved and pricey.

I do think you've made a great point Becky and I do agree. The trickiest part will be having the expertise on the mare end to be successful.

 

[Miniequine]

I checked into this over the past couple of years. Three equine repro specialist vets discouraged me from doing AI. The timing factor, cost, and effectiveness were just too uncertain. I also checked with a well-known farm doing their own collecting and they discouraged me! Said live stud service was the way to go. The reasons all these posts have already mentioned were what was cited by the specialists and the farm. So, I gave up on the idea. But, it will be interesting to hear what happens for you, Parmela- keep us posted. Peggy

Will do Peggy!

While I'm here, I just don't see the cost thing. Let's say I'm going to use an outside stallion. As the mare owner I'm going to pay for:

Stud fee

Mare care

Transportation to/from (this could easily be $1000)

1-2 ultrasounds

culture/cytology

coggins/2 health certs

their farm's cost for farrier, etc.

...and my mare travels a long distance and I risk losing the foal due to stress of the trip (which HAS happened to me).

...and I rely on THEM to tell me that my mare is bred. I've had a mare come home from being bred only to find out she's open (different from the one where I lost the foal on the trip home).

If I do AI, as the mare owner I'm going to pay for

Stud fee

collection fee (per x times)

Express mail fee

2-3 ultrasounds

...and my mare never leaves my supervision.

Hmmm. Is it really more expensive? (Seriously, not rhetorical)

Exactly what I'm thinking Sending a mare out is expensive.

Traveling costs, hotel, food, gas,,etc. the temptation of buying a horse while you're there... LOL

Then the vet costs, mare care AND the stress on the mare, moving her twice...

I just don't see it as cost prohibitive...IF it worked.

The fees at the repro clinic I use are not bad, and if it worked, it would actually save me money

and stress.

I just don't know of much success so far, for shipped semen, but I wnder how many have actually tried? I too am very interested in what you find!

~Sandy

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Well, I talked briefly to the equine clinic I use. They are going to have a vet call me next week and see about sitting down with me and talking about the options. They even said a tour of the facility and getting to see some of the instruments was possible. I thought that sounded very educational.

I also still have a couple of experienced mini breeders to talk to about it. Schedules with the holidays and all have just made it difficult.

Even if I find at the end of my "education" that this won't work I will still consider my time well spent.