Papers, what would you do?

[End Level Farms]

Situation foal was offered for sale. Very nice people came along perfect home or so it seemed but they didn't have the money for the foal and so I said that they could have her at a significant discount if they didn't want the paperwork. They have since sold her and the new owner wants papers as they want to have registered foals. This foal has been unregistered for 3 years and was purchased as unregistered now by two people. With the second one changing their minds and now wanting papers.

 

[Riverdance]

My answer to that is no. You sold the foal with no papers, that means that she should not be bred.

I sell all of my dogs with limited registration (meaning they can not be bred or shown) I I would never agree to give full registration to a second party. They buy the dog the way it was originally sold.

The same should go for horses. We have too many Miniatures out there that no one wants, why should we encourage others to breed horses that were sold unregistered.

 

[Raine Ranch Minis]

No and Yes, But make them pay the differance and the fees. If it were me I would not (to much work LOL

), but then again I might If it was a really NICE foal. Just so It would have my Farm name on it. If it were a not so nice foal, NO WAY.

:goodluck

 

[Annabellarose]

I sure hate that people sell horses without their papers.

I wish that we could do "limited registration" in the horse world.

 

[End Level Farms]

The only reason she was offered to these people with out the papers as they had great references and had claimed to not want to breed and wanted to keep. While I understand situations change I also asked to be the first to be told if they needed to get rid of or sell. So I could evaluate at that time and decide if it was worth my money and time to get the paperwork done.

And yes limited registration is needed I agree.

 

[Songcatcher]

I agree with the idea of limited registration, but unfortunately, that is not an option.

I would explain to the new owners that she was sold at a reduced price with no papers. I would consider selling papers for the difference you originally discounted, IF I inspected the filly and felt that she was worthy of the time, effort, and money to register her.

 

[Reble]

yes, but would want to put my farm name on her.

they would have to pay the difference of what my registered horses would be going at 3 years old being she is now old enough to breed.

and pay for the paper work etc.

I do not sell any of my foals with out papers and have learned do not let any one else but me do the paper work.

I am sure if they want her registered should know it is not free.

Good Luck

 

[dgrminis]

I would gladly provide them with the papers (but they would have to pay registration fees and horse would have my farm name) without asking them to pay me extra for the horse. I think it is nice that they are trying to do the right thing by their horse and get her papers in case they do breed the foals will be able to have papers as well. More than likely since they purchased her without papers if you refuse they will probably breed her and just have unregistered foals anyways. But it is not the new owner's fault that the original owner bought the horse at a reduced price without the papers and they may have paid alot more than you sold the horse for (or alot less - you never know) and I do not think it would be fair to them to charge them extra for a horse they bought from someone else... They will already have the fees from the paperwork on top of whatever they paid....

I also agree with some others - My registered horses have always been sold with their papers - no matter the price.. Even if they are just pets or shouldn't be bred - I believe that not having papers will not keep a horse from being bred so I would rather send their papers along with them (just how I do it - I know everyone is different).

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

 

[disneyhorse]

I wouldn't have any problem charging xxx amount extra, since I doubt any of the subsequent purchasers paid a Registered Horse price for an unregistered horse. I would assume they also bought the horse for not much money, not being registered.

I would charge xxx amount, and then register the horse for them with your farm name or whatever name you desire, that the current owner would be happy with.

Andrea

 

[ruffian]

If I'm reading this right, the poll is about supplying papers on a "foal", but the actual horse is 3 years old. To me that's a huge difference.

If I sell a foal from my registered stock I register the foal. If I sell a mare as open, and she happens to be bred, I would expect to be compensated for the difference between the price of an open vs bred mare before providing any paperwork for the foal.

If I sell an unregistered foal and 3 years later someone wants papers, sorry, but I would not provide. Too many hoops to jump through - DNA, parentage qualified, measuring, etc.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I didn't vote in your poll as the answer is depends.

1. Pet quality. Horses, I wouldn't want bred. I would make that clear to any potential owners (contract in writing preferably). I have fairly good rapport with buyers and would say the majority do stay in contact after the sale and I try to help rehome/take back horses if need be.

2. Breeding quality - I wouldn't sell regardless of discount w/o papers. I might hold the paperwork (work out payments), or give them papers for them to register/pay for (weanlings), but I don't sell as unregistered - unless it is truly a pet. The biggest problem I see with the selling with no papers is, it doesn't stop a horse from being bred and there are enough people out there that will breed unregistered stock as it is, plus as what is happening with you, I hate having a horse pop up 3+ years later needing paperwork straightened out.

3. I have helped people out that have bought horses 2nd and 3rd hand that I've bred untangle paperwork (they pay for it). I consider the fact I made my money when I sold the horse, and its not the new owners fault whomever didn't follow through with their end of the deal. I figure, if I CHOSE to sell at a reduced price that's my deal, and not the horses fault. He/she deserves their paperwork/name. I've given away horses that are double registered/PQ tested with papers as I felt the new home was an ideal fit for them.

I just feel my duty is to the horses I breed/raise to give them the best chance in life at a good home, preferably a lifer situation. Registration paperwork IMHO helps.

If the horse was sufficient quality to be bred in the first place, I wouldn't sell it without papers. I know it's a moot point now, though.

 

[Mona]

I totally agree with Ruffian in her answer.

 

[Minimor]

I would have to think about that a bit as off hand I am not sure.

What I do know for sure is I would not have let the filly go without her papers in the first place. If I judged her to be of the quality worthy of papers, she would have had her papers prior to sale, and she would not have been let go for a lower price without those papers. It's something I feel very strongly about and I stick to my principles on this issue. If I were in a desperate situation and needed to place some horses in a good home then it would be a different thing, but just for the sake of making a sale, no. But, that answer is not part of the poll above!

I didn't vote. I suppose I might let them have the papers for the cost of registering and transferring the horse--I don't know as I would charge them the difference in price but that might depend on the people themselves. I would be more agreeable if I felt that they were truly interested in the horse and either showing her or using her to raise quality foals than if I had the impression that they really want the papers just so they can try to resell her for a better price & make a bit of money off her that way.

 

[Farina]

I totally agree with Michelle.

I think that a registered mini has a better chance in ife so I would provide them with papers. I would be lucky if someone elso would try to do the right thing for the horse.

@ruffian If I would sell a mare as open and she would be bred I would provide happily all the needed paperwork for free. It would be my fault not the fault of the buyer or the horse. If I would buy a mare as open then I wouldn't be very happy if she was actually bred.

 

[bluerogue]

I agree with Michelle. I do not like to sell horses without their papers. I have sold colts on applications, but they always have the option of papers, barring a darn good reason for them to not keep their heritage (dwarf, or serious genetic issues, neither of which I have had yet). I can't do anything about a buyer not actually registering the horse, but I will try my best to give my babies the best chance at good homes. Not that having papers is a guarantee, but it does help. Papers also help with resale value. After all, generally speaking, registered horses do sell for more than unregistered ones.

If I bought an open mare and she was bred, I'd hope the previous owner would help me in registering the foal. It is not my fault the seller wasn't careful, or did not have the mare checked thoroughly (provided this was the case- one of my friends has had several stallions who rather talented jumpers, and she does everything she can to curtail their extra curricular activities). If I sold a mare as open who was bred, I'd give the new owner my apologies, and a congrats on their bonus (as well as the paperwork to register the foal). I think it would be crass and rude of me to demand a stud fee in such a case. However, if it was explicitly stated in the purchase agreement that if the mare came up bred there would be a stud fee due to register the resulting foal, then I would have had forewarning of it (and so would the seller). I have seen such addendums to sale ads on mares exposed, but not guaranteed to be in foal. In that case, you're purchasing a mare you know to be possibly in foal, and you know that if she is, you either pay the stud fee, or have an unregistered baby. Nothing is a surprise.

 

[Matt73]

Isn't it, actually, illegal to withold registration papers? I know it is in the purebred dog world. I believe the seller has 6 months to provide papers to new owners from the date of sale.

And whether you feel that the individual is worthy of reproducing or not is not the point. People like to have papers for authentication, pedigree, etc. What AMHR/AMHA should do is have non-breeding agreements (like what the AKC and CKC have); all my puppies are sold with non-breeding agreement registration papers. Obviously, they can still be bred, but the offspring are not registerable.

 

[Minimor]

Matt, that is only under the Animal Pedigree Act--which does not apply to AMHA or ASPC/AMHR. Those are US registries, and so technically in Canada horses registered with those associations are 'grade'--to be considered purebred in Canada the horse must be registered with a Canadian registry (one of the registries governed by CLRC)

Neither AMHA nor ASPC/AMHR has any rule that states registration papers must be provided to the new owner within 6 months of sale.

Even with a CLRC registry, I don't think there is any rule which governs selling a horse without papers--with Morgans, for instance, if you choose to sell a horse without papers, even though that horse is off 2 registered parents, you have the right to do that PROVIDED you do not advertise that horse as "purebred" when you are selling it. If you say the horse is selling as a grade Morgan then a grade Morgan it is. CKC, I understand, has very specific rules regarding selling purebred dogs without their papers.

 

[Genie]

I would try to get the paperwork done for them as long as they covered all the costs of doing so.

I may, or may not, want our farm name on the horse at this point. I would want to view the animal first.

I also am of the belief that if I am covering all the costs of paperwork for a horse I will put our name on the horse unless there was a clear agreement from the seller to put their name on it.

I purchased a mare from the west and the seller sent her colt along with her, and the paperwork needing to be done. I put her name opn the colt since he was not a horse I would want our name on.

 

[midnight star stables]

I totally agree with Michelle.

I think that a registered mini has a better chance in ife so I would provide them with papers. I would be lucky if someone elso would try to do the right thing for the horse.

@ruffian If I would sell a mare as open and she would be bred I would provide happily all the needed paperwork for free. It would be my fault not the fault of the buyer or the horse. If I would buy a mare as open then I wouldn't be very happy if she was actually bred.

I agree with you and Michelle. I would help register the foal, but at no excessive cost to you. If they are willing to pay the extra late fees then I would. That horse - with you name on it - may go on to show or get noticed. I would most certainly help out as I could! I've been the person with a "grade" horse with a lost pedigree, and I feel it is a shame for the horse.

And I agree with Farina in reference to Ruffian. I've never heard of that before.

 

[ruffian]

I agree with you and Michelle. I would help register the foal, but at no excessive cost to you. If they are willing to pay the extra late fees then I would. That horse - with you name on it - may go on to show or get noticed. I would most certainly help out as I could! I've been the person with a "grade" horse with a lost pedigree, and I feel it is a shame for the horse.

And I agree with Farina in reference to Ruffian. I've never heard of that before.

I had a mare sold to me as open, never been with the stallion. 6 months later baby on the ground. She is a reputable breeder. Mares can be bred through fences, stallions can get out. Or a mare can be given a lutylyse shot to abort to be a sold as an open mare. But it DOES happen. IMO an open mare can be less valuable than a bred mare, especially if the bred mare is in foal to a top quality stallion.