Obama

[hobbyhorse23]

Lowrise I'm sure you'll find something about this to disagree with, argue about or make another sarcastic comment about, but your I don't see compulsory military service going over well here in the U.S just points to your immaturity.

I'm sorry, but without being sarcastic in any way I don't find that comment immature at all. If compulsory military service would be so welcomed here, then why have the last few presidents worked so hard to avoid it??

The draft has always been applied to the young and able-bodied so I think younger members like myself and LowriseMinis have a right to an opinion. We're old enough to vote, old enough to be drafted, and old enough to be married and mothers. How are we immature just because we disagree? I have been very frustrated in this election by the division between older Americans and younger as we become "us and them" instead of trying to find common ground. I think this is the worst thing we can do right now, far above and beyond who we put in the White House in November. In denegrating each other we do the enemy's work for him. Whoever that may be....

Leia

 

[LowriseMinis]

Lowrise I'm sure you'll find something about this to disagree with, argue about or make another sarcastic comment about, but your I don't see compulsory military service going over well here in the U.S just points to your immaturity. It may come as a surprise to you but the U.S. actually did have that at one time. For those of us who remember back then, it was a time of strong patriotism, helping one another out when help was needed and neighbors caring about neighbors. People had a common goal in those days that just doesn't exist any more. In some ways it was part of the good old days.

Whoa, Appy, how did you get all that from what I said?

I was not aware of a period in our history when we have compulsory military service like we're talking about here. I'm aware we had a draft at one point, but this is a little different.

I'm thinking about how hard we have worked to avoid things like drafts, and the number of people in this country who are anti-military or anti-war. The people who are pacifists or are part of a religion that prohibits them from fighting. The number of families who do not want their children serving in the military. There are a lot of people in this country who would not be FOR compulsory military service-that is all I'm saying.

My question is: what other routes of service can we offer those people?

 

[LowriseMinis]

Compulsory service. I know in a lot of places that means 'military service', and I don't see compulsory military service going over well here in the U.S.

And if this is what Obama means I do not trust him ( or anyone else that might follow after him & abuse it). This could lead to his way of building up the military. I feel there could be ulterior motives behind this if not done properly. Due to the recent national crisis I do not trust ANYONE in office to do anything properly!

I believe the program Obama was talking about was voluntary. Compulsory service was brought up in this thread by some posters.

 

[susanne]

Wait -- there most definitely would be several choices...

To pay for your higher education, you would

1. volunteer in the Peace Corp (or the like),

2. serve in the military, or

3. pay for it yourself or through scholarships, grants and loans.

If it is in exchange for credit toward college expenses, why would such service not be compulsory? Paying back loans is not an option, nor is paying tuition in the first place. It's a very fair exchange. Medical students have been offered similar programs for years -- work in a remote, medically-challenged community for a few years in exchange for med school expenses.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Cathy, I'm a little confused. What is your objection here? That community service would be compulsory

............
I don't object to a program that allows a student to acquire a college education. What I object to is a student being told you have to do this particular thing or you can't participate! There should be a choice of at least - lets say three things.

Okay, that's fair.

I haven't heard any details about this proposed plan at all so let's make sure that we as citizens push for a selection of possible service options that could earn that tuition credit. There are a LOT of ways to volunteer and make a difference in this country and I can't imagine that Obama or McCain or anyone else of either party would favor trying to limit service to only soup kitchens or only homeless shelters or only the Peace Corp, whatever. I do think that just like any other government program there will be a list of approved ways to qualify for aid and that's only to be expected. Current financial aid programs certainly work that way; you have to earn between x and y income levels, have gotten z grades, etc. etc. Jump through the hoops, get the goods. That's life!

But at least this program would let the person earn the money by voluntary effort instead of something they maybe can't effect like their parents' income level. Choose to do the work, hold up your end of the bargain, get some help for college. Sounds fair.

I recall a discussion of the draft in college and someone brought up a country (Switzerland? The Netherlands? Iceland?) where service was compulsory. Most young people choose the military for their two year stint but if you were not able-bodied or had religious objections or some other hinderance you could go work in the government as an office aid or they had other options that involved helping the community. Obviously it wasn't just one alternate position but you get the idea- each person serves in the best way they can. It certainly sounded interesting and apparently worked well for them.

Leia

 

[Jill]

Medical students have been offered similar programs for years -- work in a remote, medically-challenged community for a few years in exchange for med school expenses.

If we end up moving towards a socialized medical system, there will be a huge decline in the number of young people who attend medical school.

 

[AppyLover2]

Excuse me Leia, but you were the one who said "Oh geez, don't go there" a few comments back when the sarcasm started. I (in my own old/feeble way) was agreeing with you.

Compulsory military service in America's past was the draft. Period

As far as "presidents working hard to avoid it" is concerned; there's been no need to work to avoid it. It's over. Part of the past.

Ideas for "other routes of service" might include: cleaning up our cities, rebuilding or tearing down slum tenements, rebuilding roads, picking up the junk by the sides of the highways, restoring the beauty of our national parks and monuments, projects like Habitat for Humanities and I'm sure there are hundreds of others. (Quite frankly I'm not sure why I'm supporting Obama's plan here.....I guess it's because it's the only thing I've heard him say that I've agreed with.)

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Excuse me Leia, but you were the one who said "Oh geez, don't go there" a few comments back when the sarcasm started. I (in my own old/feeble way) was agreeing with you.

And I wasn't being sarcastic there either.

I was asking a friend to help this thread to remain positively focused and not let it devolve into sarcasm and baiting each other again. Please give me the benefit of the doubt when I haven't done anything to earn your animosity. I was attempting to answer your statement with respect and consideration, not insulting you.

Ideas for "other routes of service" might include: cleaning up our cities, rebuilding or tearing down slum tenements, rebuilding roads, picking up the junk by the sides of the highways, restoring the beauty of our national parks and monuments, projects like Habitat for Humanities and I'm sure there are hundreds of others. (Quite frankly I'm not sure why I'm supporting Obama's plan here.....I guess it's because it's the only thing I've heard him say that I've agreed with.)

Those are excellent examples.

I don't care who proposes a plan- if it's a good one, the wise person will take it and run with it. I have no problem with supporting ideas proposed by Senator McCain, President Bush, or for that matter the White House janitor if I think they have potential. You don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Leia

 

[garyo]

Medical students have been offered similar programs for years -- work in a remote, medically-challenged community for a few years in exchange for med school expenses.

If we end up moving towards a socialized medical system, there will be a huge decline in the number of young people who attend medical school.

Jill, are you insinuating that some of the most intellegent young people in our country are going to med school simply for financial reasons?

Gary

 

[Jill]

Medical students have been offered similar programs for years -- work in a remote, medically-challenged community for a few years in exchange for med school expenses.

If we end up moving towards a socialized medical system, there will be a huge decline in the number of young people who attend medical school.

Jill, are you insinuating that some of the most intellegent young people in our country are going to med school simply for financial reasons?

Gary

I'm saying that with the pressure of holding people's lives in your hands and working 18+ hour days, not to mention all those many years in school, if there's not the prospect to be well paid many people will choose to make a difference in ways other than becoming a doctor.

 

[Pepipony]

Medical students have been offered similar programs for years -- work in a remote, medically-challenged community for a few years in exchange for med school expenses.

If we end up moving towards a socialized medical system, there will be a huge decline in the number of young people who attend medical school.

Shoot, thats fine by me. There are far too many in it for the oh holy buck who dont care ( not really) about the service they provide their customers. In my quest for a dx I saw over 3 dozen Drs, none who actually listened with their mouths shut. All got my dx wrong, most didnt really even bother to try. But they dang sure collected their money. I doubt if they brought their Beemers to the mechanics, they would allow the mech to charge over and over for replacing/repairing something that wasnt the problem.

In my quest, there are 3 Drs that stand out. One, who listened with her mouth shut and didnt make me rush through my 6.2 minutes with her. Next who treated me for my illness and the third who earnestly tried and was quite remorsefull when I finally got it, and she didnt give it.

They may not start out seeking the holy buck, but most fall into that trap.

 

[Jill]

Three dozen, huh?

I've always been able to find good, caring and knowledgable doctors.

Maybe next time you need one, instead of the "three dozen" you saw in your described quest, you can wait 3mos for an appt with one tired and underpaid doctor.

 

[garyo]

Medical students have been offered similar programs for years -- work in a remote, medically-challenged community for a few years in exchange for med school expenses.

If we end up moving towards a socialized medical system, there will be a huge decline in the number of young people who attend medical school.

Jill, are you insinuating that some of the most intellegent young people in our country are going to med school simply for financial reasons?

Gary

I'm saying that with the pressure of holding people's lives in your hands and working 18+ hour days, not to mention all those many years in school, if there's not the prospect to be well paid many people will choose to make a difference in ways other than becoming a doctor.

I know a few medical students and "prospect of being well paid" is actually quite low on why they have chosen to become a doctor. Generally speaking those looking to be well paid enter into fields such as cosmetic surgery. (typically not paid by insurance)

Our daughter, who is currently in med school, and her friends believe they can make make a difference in peoples lives in ways not possible in other occupations.

I'm not worried about our medical system becoming socialized. Thats just a catch phrase being used as a scare tactic.

Gary

 

[Pepipony]

Jill, its not uncommon for people who have an odd illness to go to many, many Drs. Ever watch those medical shows ( documentary types) where people can venture for years looking for a correct dx. I agree I need 'one' , but how do you know which one is the one? I went to specialists at 3 top of the line hospitals who didnt get it right. Usually when they dont have a clue, they then tell the patient that its in their mind, just to cover their ignorant butts.

 

[tagalong]

Very true, Pepipony - not everyone has a Dr. House at their disposal... and even he has to fish around for the right answer...