New rule from AMHR on sale baord

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wishful

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Does anyone know if the new rule posted on the saleboard about AMHR not allowing the registration of foals sired by 2 year old stallions is true. I hope this is not the case as I bred a mare for another farm with my 2 YEAR OLD stallion.
 
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kaykay

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if he was 2 you should be fine but he has to be permenant before you can register the foal.

theres a thread from a couple weeks ago that explains it. what the rule really affects is that you cannot bread a 1 year old stallion and register foals
 
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rosaroca

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I obviously missed this topic when it was discussed the first couple of times, so forgive me if I ask a stupid question. But, here it is:

If AMHR won't let us register a foal until both parents are permanently registered, then what happens with a stallion who is a late foal? For instance, if a stallion is foaled in October, but he's dropped and ready to breed mares in March and April, then we can't register his foals until Oct. of their weanling year??? This would make them 7 to 8 months old before they can get their papers. I don't know of too many buyers who will want to wait that long for their registration papers, and it'll cost more to register them then, too.

Or am I reading the new rule wrong?
 

Minimor

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Rosaroca, it won't cost you any more to register your foals in October or November than it will in July or August--you have until Dec. 31st to get the weanling rate of $20.

I haven't seen the posting on the Saleboard, but here is an e-mail I received off of theYahoo MiniatureHorseReview forum:

Dear Mini Friends,

a NEW rule WAS printed, WITHOUT discussion by the board of directors, in the 2005 Rule Book.

It states that NO foal can be registered into AMHR unless BOTH parents are PERMANENTLY registered, ie, past their third bday. It does not necessarily state the stallion can't be 2 when breeding, but does have to be 3 when foals registered. However, it could be interpreted to mean he has to be 3 for breeding if AMHR chooses too.

I called my area director, Tom Stephenson, to ask when this rule was passed. HE said that it had not even been discussed by the board, or gone through the Convention, or anything. He said this is not the only item like this in the 2005 rulebook. He also REQUESTED that I get as many breeders as possible to write him a letter and mail it to him, as he plans to go into the next BOD meeting and "raise heck about this". He stated there is NO WAY they can hold breeders to this for the 2005 breeding season being the rulebook isn't even available until July every year! IF the rule even holds. So PLEASE if you (like I have) used a 2 yr old in your breeding program this year--write him! or you may have unregisterable foals on your hands. Hopefully not, but who knows? He will take all letters to the BOD meeting to get this rescinded. Or if you have a young stallion you are raising to breed with, this would apply also for next year's season. Tom has been a faithful director to Area 2, and I believe him. If you are not in Area 2, and want too send to your director, do so, but please send a copy to Tom too, in case your director tosses it in the garbage. Hopefully none would, but??

The rule is highlighted in grey on page 235 of the 2005 Rulebook. It is point 4.

Feel free to forward this wherever you want too. The more letters he recieves, the better.

Send letters to:

Tom Stephenson, Area 2 Director

7676 Horatio-New Harrison Rd

Bradford, OH 45308

His # if you want to call is 937-448-2827

He does however need papers in hand to take to the meeting.

Sincerely,

Tina

Sounds like kind of an odd deal if the rule change was put in the book without any discussion by the BOD. It's also a very ambiguous rule. No one seems clear if it means offspring cannot be registered at all if the sire was just a yearling, or if it just means that offspring cannot be registered until the sire is permanent registered, which means the offspring would remain unregistered until their 2 year old year. Remember, too, that if you're using a 2 year old stallion for breeding (after all, he will be 3 when the foals arrive, and will be made permanent)--if anything happens & that stallion dies before his 3rd birthday, he won't ever become permanent reg'd., and those foals can never be registered.
 

Nancy G

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I think the new rule is totally unfair as it was not put into print until AFTER breeding season was 1/2 over. All members SHOULD speak up. This will cause a lot of confusion, possibly unregistered foals and angry members. Members should be updated on new rules. They notified members when they changed the fees to transfer/register an AMHA horse to AMHR. We deserve that same consideration now and in the future. We are the members that make up the registry, do we have a say in any of this? I wonder who passed the rule. Seems even Tom hadn`t heard of the new ruling?

Possibly this is just new wording on an already established rule?

As someone else said, what happens if the stallion dies beofre he is perm. registered? Update his registration anyhow? And also, what happens, if you sell that stallion before he is perm registered & the new owners choose not to update his registration?? Better keep that in mind, if you plan to sell that 2 year old before he turns 3.

My big question is, how did this rule get passed??
 

Jean_B

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I don't have any idea how this rule came about. I can understand the desire to have heights for all sires and dams at the time of registration, but this is sheer lunacy!

I have sent a broadcast to all of my web clients asking them to contact their BOD members (and several BOD members are my clients!). Just about everyone here has a group of friends in the business in their email address book. I suggest everyone email all their "mini" friends and ask them to contact their BOD members. This rule makes sense ... ONLY IF THERE IS AN EXCEPTION CLAUSE, i.e., the stallion dies or is sold overseas where they have their own registration org, or some other extenuating circumstances preventing the stallion from being made permanent.
 

Nancy G

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I can`t find my rule book
IF the rule states that you CAN use a two year old but he must be perm registered before any foals are registered, isn`t this an OLD rule in effect for quite some time?

I know a lady that sold her 2 year old a few weeks ago. Yep, she has 2 mares bred to him. SO if he isn`t brought perm next year ~ NO papers.

The same thing applies with AMHA with the DNA being needed, before foals can be registered. Thing there is, if he is sold, we can always do the DNA, BEFORE he leaves.
 

Minimor

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Nancy-no, this is NOT an old rule now being enforced. We had our 17 month old colt impregnate a mare the fall of '03--the resulting filly, born Sept. '04 was registered with no problem in Dec. '04, when her sire was only 2 1/2 years old....Until this year, the only rule was in regard to the age of mares--foals are/were unregistrable if born to a dam that was less than 3 years old (as of Jan. 1st) There has been no rule regarding age of sire.
 

Miniv

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Okay....I'm stunned. This is a MAJOR rule change that NO ONE knew about????

Am I reading this clearly? A major national organization made a very important rule change within their Breeding Rules, and members of the Board of Directors didn't know about it???????????

.....Something stinks to high heaven here......I hope this is all just a misunderstanding....

Please! Tell me when I wake up it was a bad dream........I thought AMHR was better than that..........

MA
 

Ashley

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Yes the rule does suck. I had a filly I wanted to show this year but couldnt due to this. I could not registure her before middle July as her darn didnt go permanate then. Mind you I had this foal named before she was even born, most my foals papers are turned in with in a few weeks of birth.
 

nootka

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I am like Ashley. I like to register my foals within a week or two of their birth, and have the papers back to me by a month old so that I can attend shows!

Right now I don't have a Jr. Stallion or any mares bred to one, but you can bet if I did, I would be fuming!

I love showing my weanlings and it is a good marketing tool for me. Just because I haven't been able to perm. register the stallion because his birthday hasn't arrived yet, that keeps my foal from being allowed to have papers?

Maybe they should change the rule to allow stallions to then be brought permanent on Jan. 1 of their three year old year?

I don't know, what does it matter really if it is a yearling or a two year old stallion doing the breeding? Not like he won't be able to birth the foal. Height issues will crop up anyway, I just don't see this helping anything more than being a major pain in the butt.

Lets hope they see the frivolousness of this particular rule and rescind it.

Liz M.
 

Getitia

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This is a "new" rule that somehow was "added" in 2005 when the new rule book was updated.

Before any such rule of this great of impact is added not only should it be reviewed with the membership, but it must be cross referenced with other rules and all other considerations taken into account.

For example - this rule is in conflict with the rule, that your foal must be registered to be shown.

So what do you do if you have a National Futurity entry whose sire does not turn 3 until October???????????????
You cannot obtain papers until October and you cannot show it in September at the Nationals.

Another concern -this is just not a foal registering issue as a friend of ours just discovered, it impacts from this point on - any AMHR horse that has not yet been registered.

So beware in regards to purchasing "any AMHR horse of any age on application" if the parents are not permanent - issues could occur that may prevent you from obtaining registration papers.

For example if you purchase a 2 year old horse not yet registered and its sire and/or dam have not brought permanent with AMHR - this horse as well cannot be registered until the sire/dam are brought permanent- Everyone needs to keep this in mind especially when purchasing horses at auction. As it can turn into a huge mess for the consumer.

Other considerations - What provisions are made if the sire and/or dam dies?

What happens when one of the parents goes oversize......so if the 2 year old stallion goes over by 1/2 inch by age 3 and you turn in the sires' papers - What happens then? The way the rule reads - this foal cannot be registered unless the foal happens to also be registered AMHA then you can back door the papers through the AMHA paperwork


What happens when a horse is sold and the new owners "do not care about papers and refuse to bring the sire/dam of your unregistered horse permanent"?

Will this rule just encourage people to "fudge" heights so that the resulting foals can be registered?

Just a few things to consider in addition to what others have mentioned.
 

ChrystalPaths

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My stallion will be three in May of 2006. He got in with my mares and God only knows if he bred anyone for sure yet. I darn well better be able to register his kids come 2006. He isn't here right now, he's being schooled and hopefully getting therapy to heal his hurts. But my entire breeding prgram is tied up in him. If Thera is in foal I was counting on that foal. Sigh, who do I write attention to?
 

Karen S

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OK Folks jumping in...Here are the ONLY rules pertaining to registering your babies. This is straight from the 2005 rulebook:

Section X:

American Miniature Horse Registry

Part 3 Registration page 235

A. As of January 1, 1995, all AMHR registered miniature horses must meet one of the following requirements:

1. Both parents must be registered with AMHR.

2. The horse must have been registered with the American Miniature Horse Association, provided all proper paper work filled out and a copy of the registry papers is submitted with the application and fees to the AMHR.

(In the grey shaded part of the rulebook to bring to our attention)

3. As of January 1, 2005 in order to register an ASPC registered pony with AMHR, the animal must have reached its actual 3rd birthday (or older). A copy of the ASPC Certificate of Registration along with the AMHR Height Verification form (measured and filled out by a licensed ASPC/AMHR Steward and examined by an ASPC/AMHR Judge) must be submitted along with the application for registration and appropriate fees. (See Customer work order).

4. AMHR horses for with an application for registration has been submitted to the AMHR National Office, will be registered ONLY if the sire and dam have been updated from temporary to permanent status.

(End of grey shaded part of rulebook)

B. No miniature foal may be registered out of a mare unless the dam has reached her third birthday (birthday as of January 1).

E. Registration of horses under the age of three years is temporary. A miniature horse becomes eligible for permanent registration after it reaches its ACTUAL third birthday, and application for permanent registration must be made before December 31st of the year it becomes three.

OK my take on this is.....First your mares must be three (January 1st rule) when she delivers her foal. Then that foal can be registered with the AMHR. (Mare was bred as a two year old foal out as a three year old). Then her registration papers will be brought permanent on her ACTUAL third birthday (this will stop some from breeding late in a year (after August IMO).

No mares bred as a yearling (even if it was accidential) and foaled out as a two year old can be registered until the mare's third birthday (January 1st rule) AND then her registration papers brought permanent on her ACTUAL third birthday.

The only rule referring to the registration of the AMHR horses is #4: " AMHR horses for which an application for registration has been submitted to the AMHR National Office, will be registered ONLY if the sire and dam have been updated from temporary to permanent status"

....Yes this could mean your two year old stallions can't breed as a two year old, BUT if your stallions were two years old at the time of the breeding and the baby was born the next year, he would in fact be a THREE year old, and you would bring his registration papers to permanent on his ACTUAL third birthday. Then once he reaches his ACTUAL third birthday and you receive your updated papers from Temporary to Permanent then the resulting foal CAN BE registered (again will stop some of these late year babies after August).

The only other thing I have ever heard is that there are a lot of horses registered (under temporary papers) sold on those temporary papers (even as a three year old) and those papers were never brought to permanent status. The new owner never transfers the papers into their name, never bring the registration papers permanent, breeds that animal, has a baby and then tries to register that foal. Guess what can't be done. In my opinion this is what this rule is trying to say...not very good wording...but it's to make everyone pay attention to their registration papers and to be sure you DO bring your animals permanent. How many of you right now have three year olds (that have hit their actual birthday) that you have procrasted on bringing their paperwork up-to-date and bred?

If you have any kind of a question regarding the registration of your horses, call Zona Schneider at the Registry and talk with her.

Karen Shaw
 

jlh

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Karen

since I'm slow about sending in the papers most years, I didn't get too upset about the making sure papers are perm on the parents, but then, I don't show foals or weanlings, and have never been to Nationals.

the points about the problems this can cause for folks who actually spend a lot of money with AMHR to show and invest in the futurity program. I can see that this would be a real problem for them.

I'd also like to see the records as to the submission of this rule, and the board minutes, cause I not only don't remember reading them, in this year or a previous year, did this pass in November of last year, after the entire year's breeding season? I left a yearling stallion in with my mommas and babies last year to learn manners. He didn't manage to breed anyone, but if he had, I'd have been SOL without notice.

on the other hand, as I was doing chores this morning I got to thnking, the "sold him before he was perm, or something happened to one of the parents" situation is one we also have to deal with in AMHA, in the parental FIFTH year.

that can be even more aggravating as you could register several foals out of a stallion's third and fourth year, and then run into problems the next year on registering his offspring. even if you sell, with the proper paperwork and certificates, a mare bred to a stallion when he's 4, the person buying the foal is held up on registering it until the paperwork is finished. If they are prompt with their paperwork, say because they want to show the foal, and you are waiting, or the boy doesn't hit his 60 months before the foal's paperwork needs to be done, it can cause great confusion and aggravation at the least. at the worst, it hurts your reputation as a seller/breeder.

I'd like to be provided with the relevant board minutes, too. Since I can't travel, I try to keep up with the boad minutes from both registries, to avoid this kind of surprise.
 
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Dona

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This new "rule" definitely needs to be clarified from someone at the AMHR office. And I am another AMHR member who would like to know how this came about without going thru the proper channels.
 
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kaykay

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when this came up a couple weeks ago cathy from amhr posted on what zona and others said the rule meant. maybe i should go find it.

the problem is the rule is very vague and open to interpertation. and that no one knew about its existence. The only reason i knew was because i got denied registration on a foal this year until i updated the stallion from temp to perm. Which I did and then got the foals papers so no big deal. But it would have been nice to know and i dont think it should have been put into force in 2005.

Karen this is not what i was told:

No mares bred as a yearling (even if it was accidential) and foaled out as a two year old can be registered until the mare's third birthday (January 1st rule) AND then her registration papers brought permanent on her ACTUAL third birthday.

I was told that a foal from a mare under three years of age CAN NEVER be registered. Thats what i was told when i called AMHR on this a couple years ago.

Kay
 

Little Wee Horse Farm

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I don't believe the best interests of members or future members were considered here. You might keep horses papered, but after a horse is sold, it's out of the seller's hands. Why should the seller lose out if the new owner doesn't do things right? And vice versa.

There are horses I sold 10 YEARS AGO that are still in my name..........permanent? I don't think so. Some buyers just aren't concerned with paperwork. As a seller, you have NO control. The rule could cause a seller to keep a stud much longer than intended. It that the intention? I don't get it.

And how, possibly, could you sell a foal & guarantee it will be registered when the time comes? Life is FULL of unexpected things --- illness, death, FIRE and as we know right now ....even flood or hurricane! ANYTHING. How can the entire future be put on hold, pending further action by something or someone else. No, I don't want to bring home a horse that might be registered, IF all goes well & the time gets to be right. I'll bring home a "temp," but not one without papers.

I lost 15 horses in the fire, some were immature & not permanent. If, by some strange coincidence, say, the yearling stallion would have bred (by accident here!), then any resulting foal would not be eligible. Bad thinking!

But take a normal circumstance -- Suppose: You didn't time it JUST right and your 2-year-old stud bred some mares. Before those foals are born, you decide that stallion needs to be sold for some reason. But, wait, if you sell him & the new owners don't take him permanent him when the time comes, you've got babies THAT CAN'T be registered. You can't make someone else take an action if they don't care to!

I am shocked.
at the way it appears to have been shoe-horned in. Shame on them. Such an important decision without ANY input??? Bad bad bad.

This was gonna be a short post, but I guess I more mad than I thot.


Old adage: If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 
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Ashley

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Why are we trying to stop late foals????????

I dont see a problem with late foals. IN fact I just had one born in Sept. and honestly if I lived down south where it is hot, I would either have them very early or late in the year. I find that trying to stop that is kinda distastful.

The way the registurys are going makes you wanna forget about have minis for breeding or showing.

I normally do not do my temp to permante papers till the end of the year unless some are ready to go in with the foal papers. I am more up and up with the foal papers as that is what I show. Just tickes me off kinda that we are not allowed to show some of our foals due to this rule and them haveing to be registured to show.
 

Karen S

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In regards to the rulebook...this was done at the 2004 Convention in a Board Meeting....Area 1 Director Deanne Gutman made a proposal to GRANDFATHER the current rulebook...the 2004...at that BOD meeting. the BOD did accept this proposal and did indeed vote to Grandfather the 2004 rulebook as it stood. So...what that meant...no matter what was printed prior to the 2004 rulebook the wording no longer stands. Everything from 2004 forward did. (For all rule changes done at convention...look at your December 2004 Journal and your April 2005 Journal in the Official pages).

I have looked over the 2004 Rulebook and looked for anything concerning not being able to register foals from a two year old mare (in the 2004). The only rule is the same one that is in the 2005 rulebook..

"No miniature foal may be registered out of a mare unless the dam has reached her third birthday (birthday as of January 1). So, if you have a two year old mare that had a baby, that baby can't be registered. Kaykay I can understand what you were told, as yes this is very vague, but it doesn't say that foal can't be registered after that mare has reached her third birthday (January 1st) or her ACTUAL third birthday (what ever her birthdate was) and you pay the appropriate fee (yearling is $30).

Since you can't make any rule changes (those changes had to be in by July 1st), then for next year you will need to submit to the rules committee a change to clarify this rule.

Something like: "No miniature foal may be registered out of a two year old mare. Then when mare reached her Actual third birthday and being brought permanent from temporary, then said foal can apply for registration and paying approporiate fees for age division ie. yearling and sire of said foal has permanent papers then said foal can be registered". This way foal can be registered and all horses that are on temporary papers must be brought permanent (once they reach their actual third birthday).

I know we all have sold horses on temporary papers and those papers were never brought current or the new owner hasn't transferred them out of our names. Well the only solution to that problem is....contact the Registry...get a duplicate copy of those papers and bring that animal permanent (your name is still on those papers). Keep that copy in your sale files with the copy of the other set so if you should recieve any feedback from someone else then you can prove that animal was brought permanent by you the original owner. Again, my opinion here, just another solution to this particular problem.

Karen Shaw
 

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