New horse...need your thoughts

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Could you post photo of your boy in harness with hook up? There also could be a hook up reason for your boy acting up... collar too low, or too high, britching too low or high.. cart too close, shaft fit etc. There are terrific ladies here than critique your set up and help you there too in case you might want to make some harness or hook up adjustments, tug height etc...

Love this forum for hook up assistance and advice based on photos.

Be very careful, you don't want to invite a big wreck by trying to move on too quickly. Until I had a solid whoa on my boy, my trainer didn't let me out of the round pen. Also.. there is WHOA and there is also a STAND. I had to do a ton of work on my boy for both, he was getting away with murder on the halts and he had a run away in his past, so we constantly work on that.

I do not ever want my boy backing up after a whoa either. I will teach backing as a separate exercise. Countless problems and danger if you boy would be trained to expect backing a few steps with a halt. You can get backed into a ditch, into a car... I live in amish country and the roads are loaded with horses that don't have a good halt or stand and I have seen the results and scary results from horses backing in harness when they should be standing. best wishes, thanks for bringing to the forum... Line driving can be a great way to work halts and stands. have somebody watch your hands too for the "release".. take care, go slow, you can not go wrong by taking your time, but tons can go wrong rushing ahead.. Don't worry, you are smart to step back and evaluate.

photos can help, sometimes your horse is acting up trying to tell you something about the hook up, too long shafts can poke on turns, problems with collar and britching can make him be holding the cart with just the saddle and it is uncomfortable, britching keeps the cart from going forward down hills etc...Not saying you are doing anything wrong, but I know that I have made quite a few harness adjustments (directed by my trainer) to make my guy more comfortable.
Thanks for the encouragement shorthorse mom. I will try to get pictures when I hook him up to the cart again and then I will see if I can manage to post them. Yep, I think I will take my time to make sure that every thing is going good with my little guy. I am really hoping to get the trainer out here to make sure I am getting the cart hooked up right and to make sure the harness and the bridle are right and get some feedback on how I am doing with my hands and reining.

I could be doing plenty wrong:) The way I see it, I will have to keep reading up and talking to people and muddling through without rushing and getting the trainer out here when I can. I think it would be great if my little guy could be in the town's 4 block long parade next Memorial Day Weekend in 2013 so I have lots of time to work on stuff. If we don't make that goal, then there is always the next year.

I love this horse and I truly enjoy learning about another species.
 
I can relate to everything you are saying. I had a small wreck earlier this year coming out of a turn in the ring my boy tossed in a buck and got his leg over the shaft. He then bucked like crazy and broke my harness but luckily my fast acting trainer was there and talked me through getting him (and me) out of the mess. We have had a few lessons since and are doing great, but then my trainers horse foundered and she was too busy to come for a few weeks. I am groundworking until she comes back. Better safe than sorry and I am fairly sure my wreck would have been a major one instead of a minor one if I had not had a trainer working with me that day. My boy needs work and exercise, but we are not doing it driving unsupervised for now. I am just too green. Interesting going back through my mind on the wreck and I am fairly certain I pulled right and dropped my left rein and because my boy for a moment thought he was going out through the gate and I turned abruptly instead, he let me know my green hands ticked him off. My cart has lower shafts and we had not installed the bucking strap as yet, so everything lined up for a perfect storm that day.

I love my boy too. Working toward a parade next year sounds like a great goal. take care and keep us posted..ps. I know it can be a little frustrating going back, I am feeling that right now, but know that backing up a bit is what I have to do right now. you are smart to self evaluate and seek help.. These folks here are awesome for driving advice... different opinions always available, you learn from all of them.
 
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Okay, I talked to one of the people in my area that does mini horse cart driving and she thinks that I should just keep going with the little guy pulling the cart but when he doesn't want to whoa properly to make him move forwards and not let him "get way with" his bad behavior.
She says that once her horses are pulling a cart she doesn't go backwards in training, basically.
First of all, there is no such thing as “mini horse cart driving.”
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There is only “driving,” by which I mean you should train your little guy the exact same way you’d train a full-sized driving horse. Look for any driving instructor in your area, not just a mini trainer! You’ll probably get better information from someone with a broad base and experience in many breeds.

Secondly, I disagree with whoever advised you and said that she doesn’t go backwards in training. For one thing there is nothing wrong with going back to firm up missed steps or deepen the horse’s understanding of something they aren’t quite getting, and for another going back to long-lining or dragging something isn’t necessarily going backwards at all. I may take my experienced horse back to long-lines to teach something that is better learned without the cart, or put my youngster in a drag long after he’s hitched to build his muscles and teach him how to hold a steady gait on the double-lunge. I’m working on different things, not old stuff! Most experienced trainers do this with their horses as far as I know.

For your boy’s not standing, I would absolutely continue to work with him in-hand and ground-driving and teach him that when you say Whoa, you mean it. At the same time you need to set him up for success by not asking for the halt when he’s wired and asking him to move off just before he’s at his limit rather than pushing and pushing for a specific amount of time like 5 or 10 seconds when he may only be able to give you 2 or 3 to start with. The important part is to build on it each time you ask and get it through his head that the fastest way to be allowed to move forward is to stand quietly. Give him that reward quickly in the beginning so he gets the idea but don’t let him move off, EVER, without your permission. He has to give you at least a moment of immobility before you release him. If he absolutely can’t, if he’s starting to back into a fence or threaten to rear or some other dangerous behavior, by all means push him forward but immediately and calmly make him work so hard he starts to regret it and wish for a chance to stop. Lots of trotting circles and serpentines or walking in deep footing, figure eights, etc. You aren’t doing this to punish him but to offer a clear contrast: Stand quietly when I give you the opportunity, or get tired. It doesn’t usually take them long to get it if you’re consistent.

So when I do ask for the whoa I always back a step or two sometimes more depending on how quickly the horse responds. General rule of thumb is for every step they take over my stopping point, they have to back to that stopping point. The quicker they learn to back with a whoa the quicker they'll learn to down shift those gears and eventually they start to relax into the stop and you won't need to back. Most horses don't really WANT to back at first and a tense horse will have a hard time doing so. Once you get them thinking back anytime you ask for a stop, whoa is hardly ever a problem again because it gets them to think first and in turn to relax.
In general I want to compliment Circlesinthesand for an excellent post, and for providing another perspective on the stop. Different disciplines do teach things differently and it’s always good to consider whether techniques from one may be helpful in another. In this case though, I have to agree with Minimor and Sue C. that I don’t want a driving horse thinking “back” on their own. It can turn into a nasty evasion in a hurry and a very dangerous one at that. My driving pair have suddenly decided that they like to spontaneously back up and it’s driving me insane! Both horses know better and they’re very correct and mannerly about it…except that I didn’t ask for the back and they just keep going in a perfect straight line together until I really get after them with the whip. This habit popped up without warning a couple drives ago and I intend to put a stop to it just as quickly because that is NOT something they get to do. Ever. I’m going to check that their equipment isn’t causing some sort of incidental cue or making it more comfortable for them to back away for some reason but regardless of the reason it needs to stop. One of these days there’s going to be a pedestrian or a ditch behind us and then we’d be in a world of hurt and all because I didn’t keep their minds on going forwards.

Another reason to avoid that western halt method for driving horses is because it is far more of a strain on them with a cart behind that it is for a riding horse. ESPECIALLY for a green horse, having that heavy cart suddenly slam them in the rump (or worse, the saddle) during a fast halt is confusing and unbalancing, and then to ask a tense horse to not only step back (which is, as you noted, difficult) but to shove the cart back as well is almost guaranteed to cause resistance and confusion. It comes across as a punishment, not training, and in inexperienced hands could easily cause the horse to rear and either refuse to back at all or learn to do so in a terrible rush because the groundwork was not laid properly. In the right hands and in measured doses this technique can be useful, but I would not recommend it for driving horses in general and especially not for green drivers.

The biggest problem I had when learning lower level dressage is that they want the horses more forward and don't want the stop/whoa to mean stop on the haunches, it’s more of a down transition and then ready to move out forward again as if it was just a brief pause so I would get marked down for my "stick the butt in the ground stop"
Yep. The halt in dressage is an active gait with the horse balanced on all four feet and ready to immediately and smoothly move out- a collection of his energy into an immobile pause, not an emergency stop or down-time between movements.
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For that reason I do maintain contact with my driven dressage horse’s mouth during halts but I also don’t ask him to stand that way longer than a few seconds as I salute or acknowledge the judge. My trainer taught me A) not to drop contact and let the horse stretch during a dressage halt, and B) that there is a difference between a working halt and a take-a-break-whoa and if I expect the horse to stand for more than a few seconds, I need to release the reins and let him relax. I use “Whoa” with contact to tell the horse to make a downward transition to halt and “Whoa, Stand” with a rein release to tell him to stay there. Otherwise he waits on his toes for me to tell him what to do next and for some strange reason, he gets impatient after awhile! LOL

You say he "likes to trot", and of course he does...that is what HE wants to do...but walking is the absolute most important gait for any horse, but especially a driving horse. Walk-walk-walk...
Yep. I made this mistake with Kody, my older gelding, and ended up with a horse who joyfully blew off steam for the first few minutes of our drive at a fast trot or gallop (we do combined driving events so canter is a working gait for us) and then settled happily into his work. I didn’t think it was that much of a problem because he waited until told to go up from a calm walk, would stop immediately if I told him to and would then stand quietly, so surely it was just this little indulgence between the two of us…? Wrong. LOL. He hurt his back a few years later and I spent a lot of time retraining him to walk for the first fifteen to twenty minutes because his muscles were far too tight to do anything more without pain. It wasn’t until we had to walk that I realized how ingrained the habit of having his little gallop had become! He was VERY unhappy with being forced to walk that long and several times I had to turn him around and go a bit towards home to get my point across that if he couldn’t stay calm when allowed to move up, he couldn’t go out. I especially realized what a bad habit it was when I considered the idea of having this horse be my youngster’s mentor in a pair. The thought of what would happen if he tried to take off when hitched to my green baby made my blood run cold and brought a new resolve to retrain him. It took time but now he warms up properly at a walk, trots off quietly when asked to and doesn’t get strong until later in the drive when we’re both ready for harder work. I made sure I did things right with the baby from the start and am glad I did! Don’t let your boy set the rules. YOU are the driver.

Leia
 
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First of all, there is no such thing as “mini horse cart driving.”
default_wink.png
There is only “driving,” by which I mean you should train your little guy the exact same way you’d train a full-sized driving horse. Look for any driving instructor in your area, not just a mini trainer! You’ll probably get better information from someone with a broad base and experience in many breeds.

For your boy’s not standing, I would absolutely continue to work with him in-hand and ground-driving and teach him that when you say Whoa, you mean it. At the same time you need to set him up for success by not asking for the halt when he’s wired and asking him to move off just before he’s at his limit rather than pushing and pushing for a specific amount of time like 5 or 10 seconds when he may only be able to give you 2 or 3 to start with. The important part is to build on it each time you ask and get it through his head that the fastest way to be allowed to move forward is to stand quietly. Give him that reward quickly in the beginning so he gets the idea but don’t let him move off, EVER, without your permission. He has to give you at least a moment of immobility before you release him. If he absolutely can’t, if he’s starting to back into a fence or threaten to rear or some other dangerous behavior, by all means push him forward but immediately and calmly make him work so hard he starts to regret it and wish for a chance to stop. Lots of trotting circles and serpentines or walking in deep footing, figure eights, etc. You aren’t doing this to punish him but to offer a clear contrast: Stand quietly when I give you the opportunity, or get tired. It doesn’t usually take them long to get it if you’re consistent.

Yep. I made this mistake with Kody, my older gelding, and ended up with a horse who joyfully blew off steam for the first few minutes of our drive at a fast trot or gallop (we do combined driving events so canter is a working gait for us) and then settled happily into his work. I didn’t think it was that much of a problem because he waited until told to go up from a calm walk, would stop immediately if I told him to and would then stand quietly, so surely it was just this little indulgence between the two of us…? Wrong. LOL. He hurt his back a few years later and I spent a lot of time retraining him to walk for the first fifteen to twenty minutes because his muscles were far too tight to do anything more without pain. It wasn’t until we had to walk that I realized how ingrained the habit of having his little gallop had become! He was VERY unhappy with being forced to walk that long and several times I had to turn him around and go a bit towards home to get my point across that if he couldn’t stay calm when allowed to move up, he couldn’t go out. I especially realized what a bad habit it was when I considered the idea of having this horse be my youngster’s mentor in a pair. The thought of what would happen if he tried to take off when hitched to my green baby made my blood run cold and brought a new resolve to retrain him. It took time but now he warms up properly at a walk, trots off quietly when asked to and doesn’t get strong until later in the drive when we’re both ready for harder work. I made sure I did things right with the baby from the start and am glad I did! Don’t let your boy set the rules. YOU are the driver.

Leia
Thanks for the thorough comment. I have been having my little guy walk for the first quarter mile out of the gate. If he is full of beans, I make him take the sandier road to start with so he has to work a bit harder. We also walk for the last quarter mile back to the gate when we are finishing up. Of course, I vary it a little bit so that he doesn't get to thinking he knows everything like going different directions out of the gate or walking for more than the quarter of a mile. When we get back to the yard, sometimes I have him drive around a bit more so that he doesn't think just getting home means we are done.

I have been walking him around the neighborhood on a lead line to make sure that he is getting a chance to see lots of yards and cars while we are out and about. He is a very curious little horse and loves to meet the neighbors. I ask him to "whoa" and then we are practicing "stand". If he moves out before I ask him to walk, I circle him right back around to where we were standing and ask again. I think we are improving. He seems to whoa fine but he doesn't like to stand. I got to thinking about it and he never has been the best at standing still in the cart even when we went to look at him. There were five or six of us there and he wanted to see the people and sniff their pockets for treats so he would sneak forwards and have to be whoaed again. I don't give him any treats at this time since I think being a cookie monster is sort of a bad habit.

Fortunately, I did get a horse I really like and we are doing pretty good working together. He walks up and puts his little face into the halter and he is really good about being brushed and combed and getting his feet cleaned. All animals and their owners have things they need to work on and we are no exception:) I am trying to set up some good habits like pausing at the gate to go into or out of the pen and waiting to until I want to go in, walking when we get moving in the cart, not rushing but walking to get from point A to point B., etc.

Lately, he is acting like "Can we go for a walk, please" which I think at least means that we are having fun when we go out. He seems like an adventure horse that likes getting out and doing things with me and he isn't really spooky although he has his little moments. I think with some more work and experiences in new places, he will be doing great! The neighbor said she would help me by driving her ATV by him since he seems a little worried about motorcycles. In fact, one of the kids I know has a motorcycle and I might have him go by the little guy if I think the kid will listen to what I want from him like going slow and staying far enough away from him.

Thanks again!
 
Ok. I am probrably going to get a lot of flack for what my reaponse is to your issue but I am gonna tell you anyway. My mare could not get the concept of walk when hitched to a vehicle. In hand and grnd driving was not a problem. So I sent her to a trainer for 30 days. After about 2weeks the trainer was still not able to get her to stand. She would stop for about 30 seconds and she wanted to go. Mind you this mare loves to go! When the trainer decided to use a twisted wire bit (that didnt work either) I brought her home. I decided we would figure it out... I was in the cart in the driveway one day and the neighbor stopped. Fanci didnt want to stand still so I took the but end of my whip and gently scratched her rearend.... what horse doesnt like a good scratch? She relaxed and leaned back just enoigh to enjoy it! Woohoo I found the solution. Every time we stopped I would scratch her on the rump. I did this everyday for about a week and gradually backed off to every other time less and less until now its just every now and then. I am proud to say that she will now stop on a dime. I am not saying that this is your answer. But I am saying to find what works for you and your horse. It could be as simple as a good scratch on the rump!
 
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Break it down into 2 steps, whoa and stand, I teach whoa to stop and nothing else. Stand means don't move until I tell you to do so. I start this in the halter then transfer it to driving. I never ask for very long in the beginning, working it up to having a conversation with the neighbor and the horse not moving.
 
Here is a thought. I was taught this at a driving class I went to last fall.

Be sure you are sitting squarely in the seat, back straight, your behind firmly pushed into the seat. Use your wrists on the reins, not your arms. Sit in the seat, not saying anything, just keeping enough pressure on the reins to signal the whoa, calmly, as though you have all day. Ho hum, I think I'll take a nap. Do this until he stops fidgeting, stands still, and sighs/licks.

Your position in the seat is critical. If you are leaning forward he is getting a body signal to go ahead. Be sure you are centered with all your weight over the axle so no downward pressure is on the shafts, all your weight on your behind.

Another thing that helps, I think, is half halts.

I also think going back a step is good. Don't think of it as going backward, think of it as a refresher course, or a way to do something new such as going over poles, walking on a board, going around cones, sidepassing in harness. Practice backing straight. Lots of things to do ground driving!

Have his teeth been checked? He may be trying to avoid pressure of some sort.

Good luck!
 
Here is a thought. I was taught this at a driving class I went to last fall.

Be sure you are sitting squarely in the seat, back straight, your behind firmly pushed into the seat. Use your wrists on the reins, not your arms. Sit in the seat, not saying anything, just keeping enough pressure on the reins to signal the whoa, calmly, as though you have all day. Ho hum, I think I'll take a nap. Do this until he stops fidgeting, stands still, and sighs/licks.

Your position in the seat is critical. If you are leaning forward he is getting a body signal to go ahead. Be sure you are centered with all your weight over the axle so no downward pressure is on the shafts, all your weight on your behind.

Another thing that helps, I think, is half halts.

I also think going back a step is good. Don't think of it as going backward, think of it as a refresher course, or a way to do something new such as going over poles, walking on a board, going around cones, sidepassing in harness. Practice backing straight. Lots of things to do ground driving!

Have his teeth been checked? He may be trying to avoid pressure of some sort.

Good luck!
He had is teeth floated just before I got him in April. I do want to get the vet to check his teeth and give him shots in September but I may do it sooner if I decide it really is his teeth that might be bothering him.

Good idea on remembering positioning in the seat and using the wrists for the whoa.

Tomorrow we are going to work on having a rattling truck and trailer go by him while I lead him in a halter. Hubby is home and the trailer is already on the truck. I am going to have Hubby come by in different directions and then I am going to have Hubby make sure the truck makes the bump rattle noise when he crosses the road base road over the pavement and onto the dirt a few times.
 
I'd like to echo that reining and driving are two very very different worlds. Driving horses, for safety, should be extremely forward. I don't even teach my green driving horse's to back until we've got a lot of the basics down pat. It's easier for a driving horse to evade while backing, as you don't have your seat and leg to help you.
 

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