New Colt...Old Questions, genetics and color...long!

[brookhaven]

Just had a new colt born who appears to be palomino. HOWEVER, the stallion is black out of a black mare by a bay stallion. The dam is registered as grey but is solid white. I bought her as an adult so I don't know what color she was when born. Her sire is registered as RNR (red roan) and her dam as SWT (Solid White!???!). (AMHA, why would you accept a solid white because we all know there is no such thing?). Only thing I can figure is that my mare is a palomino or that her dam is a palomino. This is the sixth foal for this mare. Bred to a bay she produced a sorrel - (I assumed she was a red based grey)which could be grey by now, bred to a cremello she produced two dilute buckskins, bred to another bay she produced a bay (stillborn- so don't know if it turned grey) and I think her first foal was a roan...anybody got any ideas?

Secondly, this cute little fella's bite is off. It appears that his nose was pushed to the side while he was cooking. Someone said that there is a name for this. What I really want to know is, if this is a "condition", is it genetic because if so, I do not want to breed the mare back to the same stallion. If it is just a matter of the nose being pushed or covered by a foot, then I'd be willing to try again. I've had three foals from this mare, plus I bought her with a foal by her side and none of them had this problem. Anybody got ideas?

I'm attaching some photos taken when he was one day old. It's not the best, but as most of you know I've been in the hospital so haven't been able to get many photos. If better shots will help, let me know and I'll try to get them tomorrow!

 

[Mona]

Congratulations on your new colt. The mare looks as though she could be palomino?? If her dam is reg'd as white, she could be cremello. What color are her parents? Any dillutes in either of them? You colt does look palomino. As for his bite, in dogs, it's called a rye mouth. (not sure on the correct spelling)

 

[qtrrae]

what a pretty little colt - he "looks" palomino to me, also but I know with babies - looks can be deceiving.

There is a link to wry mouth for horses - actually - it is more on denistry in horses - not sure if this will help but here it is:

http://www.shirleycalderequine.com/Dentistry.htm

 

[HaazeMinis]

CONGRATUALTIONS!! :aktion033: :aktion033:

:

I am no expert, however I agree that the mare does not look gray. She looks Palomino to me as well.

As far as the colts bite. This happened to a very dear friend of mine and a colt she had born at her place. The vet told her it happened in Utero and I believe he told her rye Mouth and you know with-in a couple of weeks that colts bite was PERFECT! It was undershot and very noticeable. I did not feel it would straighten out and it did.

:

Your colt is VERY NICE!

:

: Look at those straight legs!

Jeri

 

[brookhaven]

Well, guess I need to test the mare for the cream gene. If she carries it, would that make her palomino or just a carrier of the gene? Might be hard to convince folks that a black stallion and a grey mare had a palomino foal!

As for his mouth, a friend just emailed me an article from The Horse.com abuot wry mouth that says it is most likely not genetic, is something that happens in utero and can, in certain cases, correct itself! All of which is very good to know. I do think his bite is getting better but I would be surprised if it totally corrected itself, but he's only a few days old.. so keep your fingers crossed!

Thanks for your input too!!!

 

[Minimor]

Your mare looks palomino, not grey; her "white" dam was probably cremello or perlino.

You mention your mare has previously produced dilute buckskin when bred to a cremello...if your mare is red based (as you suspected) then the cremello that sired those buckskins has to be a perlino. Red bred to red cannot produce buckskin.

As for the registry thinking it odd that a black and a grey produced a palomino--don't worry about that. They don't even care if two red parents produce a black based foal. I don't believe they ever say that parents of the registered colors cannot produce a foal of that particular color--anything goes. And besides, when you send in photos to register the foal, if the registry doesn't like the color you marked down, they will choose a color of their own & use that. It won't necessarily match up with what the parents could have produced, and it may not match up with what the foal looks like.

Cute baby!

 

[Meavey]

Dam is definatly grey, just look at the typical dark skin.

Dam is also definatly not a double dilute, dd have pink skin and blue eyes.

The creme gene could have come from the black sire, whom in fact would be smokey black then.

And dam could have creme too, since grey covers any color, she can be born palomino buckskin or smokey black.

So that are the options, if you really want to know you can do a color test.

 

[HaazeMinis]

Dam is definatly grey, just look at the typical dark skin.

Dam is also definatly not a double dilute, dd have pink skin and blue eyes.

The creme gene could have come from the black sire, whom in fact would be smokey black then.

And dam could have creme too, since grey covers any color, she can be born palomino buckskin or smokey black.

So that are the options, if you really want to know you can do a color test.

Meavy, I am no expert by any means, however if you look at Brookhavens Website you will see this mare produced a Buckskin.

: The mare in question is a Komokos King Supreme Grand daughter...

:

I guess the only way to find out for sure is test her for the Creme Gene.

: Maybe she carries Silver which dilutes things a bit and might account for her Dark Skin?

:

Jeri

 

[Minimor]

Since when can a palomino not have black skin? This is my Scooter, definitely a palomino, and he has dark skin...

Surely you're not going to tell me, Meavey, that he's actually a grey?? I don't believe he even carries silver.

 

[Lauralee]

All you really have to do is test the colt if you truly want confirmation. The mare OR the sire could have been the source, but the colt obviously inherited cream.

I would test him for cream and for silver just for fun.

Now, if you want to know the mare's true genetic makeup for future breedings, by all means, test her for cream. I'd also test for silver, again just for fun.

If the cream comes back negative for her, then you know it is the sire who carries cream.

 

[Songcatcher]

Well, guess I need to test the mare for the cream gene. If she carries it, would that make her palomino or just a carrier of the gene? Might be hard to convince folks that a black stallion and a grey mare had a palomino foal!

Actually, two BLACK horses can produce a Palomino foal. If one has a recessive Red gene and one a Cream gene (making it a Smokey Black) they could produce Palomino. The only ones you would have trouble convincing are the ones who have no knowledge of the genetics.

Minimore, I think Meavey was referring to a DOUBLE dilute not having dark skin, not a single dilute Palomino.

 

[Mona]

Minimore, I think Meavey was referring to a DOUBLE dilute not having dark skin, not a single dilute Palomino.

Songcatcher, I think you maybe misread? I agree with Minimore in that Meavy said the mare was grey due to her dark skin. This is what she stated:

Dam is definatly grey, just look at the typical dark skin.

So I believe she is saying here that the dam is definately a grey because of the dark skin??? What Minimore is getting at, is how can the dark skin differentiate between a light palomino or a true grey?

 

[Minimor]

Thank you Mona, yes, that is what I was trying to say. You cannot judge a horse grey or palomino based on skin color....both colors can have dark skin! As I read Meavey's post, she said without a doubt the dam in this case is grey, proved by her dark skin.

 

[brookhaven]

The sire has been tested (he is a Buckeroo grandson) and does not carry the cream gene. Moon Maid's grandsire is "unknown" and her dam and grandam are both "SWT" (solid white

: ). So no way to know, but will have Moon tested.

 

[Mona]

So has she ever produced to foal with the dilute gene from a non-dilute sire?

 

[Meavey]

Want I mean is she has the typical face of a grey, grey darkens the pigment in a typical way, (like in arabs), wich I think is most obvious in the face, and makes the nice contrast with the white coat, wich I think is much to white for a palomino.

That means she can still sure be born palomino or buckskin, it just doesn´t show anymore because the grey covered it up.

 

[brookhaven]

From AMHA website for Coat Colors.

"For example, there are six different types of ''white'' miniatures, all being caused by different genes. Only one type is shown on the chart (cremello). The other five types are perlino, true white, true grey, silver white and all-white pintos with no colored markings. Many of these ''white'' horses may only be differentiated from one another by their skin color, their eye color and/or their parentage."

I looked up the sire of one of Moon's offspring who I know is cremello and he is registered as SWT. So, it could be very likely that Moon's dam, listed as SWT, could be cremello/perlino. Moons foals:

bred to RNR=RNR, bred to bay=SSR, bred to cremello twice=SBS ( I call dilute buckskin), bred to SPA=SPA, bred to bay=SBA. Since she was bred to a palomino and produced a palomino, that would tell me that she just carries the cream gene rather than being a palomino herself, because then wouldn't the foal be cremello?

 

[Mona]

Since she was bred to a palomino and produced a palomino, that would tell me that she just carries the cream gene rather than being a palomino herself, because then wouldn't the foal be cremello?

No, she cannot just "carry" the cream gene without expressing it. If she carries it, she must express it. So in this case, she would be palomino. The foal would only be a cremello if it got one cream gene from each parent. They need a double dose, to be a double dilute.

 

[HGFarm]

I am certainly not a dilute color expert, but the mare looks pale palomino to me.

As for the colts bite, I have seen some horses that were born with horribly crooked legs and they straightened right up in time. Babies are rather rubbery and can do some amazing things. Give him a chance and see how he does!

 

[trickhorses]

My palomino mare is identical to that mare!. She has brown eyes, pink skin and a grey muzzle just like her!. I know my mare is a palomino as she tested out to carry one copy of the creme gene. Her dam was also listed on her papers as being white too! Also these "white" palominos are actually called Isabella Palominos.

:

Danielle

All Star Farm

Trick Trained Gypsy Vanners & Miniature Horses

Home of the famous "Gypsy Queen"

www.allstarhorsefarm.com