Miniatures have a BRINDLE STALLION !

[WTFFarm]

Gosh, this little guys color has confused me since the day he was born, just a couple of weeks ago I said he wasn't brindle - even though every day when I look at him I swore he was.

Well the confusion is over. I submitted a load of pictures over the past couple of weeks and just felt a big sign of relief when I got e-mails back sayinig "yes"

Ozymandias is a brindle.

Of course I'm very excited about having my suspicions confirmed and am going to register him as brindle.

What pushed me over the top was a thread a few weeks ago concerning Marbles. Her stripes show really well with her roan body color where Ozy's coloring is almost red on red (bay) but if you could see him, you'd see that his marks are identical to Marbles and of course there's the Komokos Little King Supreme relationship there too which may be coincidence but it's a very big coincidence that his line has produced two such rare coat colors.

I was doing some research and came across this web site with pictures of confirmed brindles with IDENTICAL markings to Ozy. I can't describe my excitement when I saw these horses and I knew instantly that I had an answer to what Ozy's marking are. They're calling them "seasonal" brindles because the color of the stripes is so similar to the body color (just like Ozy) that they are mostly visible during the summer months when the horse is shed out. Just like Ozy, the owners of these brindles report that the stripes sometimes just look like a "bad clip job" and each year they develop more. These "seasonal" brindles are "real" brindles, can produce brindles, their brindle stripes are just harder to see because of their base color which is something I've been saying about Ozy all along.

Here's a few links that show some of these horses...

http://www.brindlehorses.com/battyatty/webped/one.htm

http://www.brindlehorses.com/l3l13/charact...tics/season.htm

if you look at the red bay brindle on this page you'll see how hard it is to see the brindle on a similar base colored coat.

http://www.brindlehorses.com/l3l13/charact...cs/coattext.htm

I don't know if I'm more excited that he's a brindle or that I finally have a solution to the nagging "feeling" that all along he has been one lol. You know how it is when you just want an answer lol.

I have to thank MiniV with all my heart. Not only is Ozy very special but he's my equine soulmate too. I melt every morning when he smootches me lol

My next move will be to round up a nice small herd of blue and red roan mares next spring. If I can find ones with Supreme lines I'd be extra thrilled

. After seeing how the two roan brindles marks show I'd really like to breed Ozy to roans to produce highly visible brindles. It would be nice to see a bunch of brindle mini's out there and having a stallion makes that more possible. I'd love to share this unique color with others.

Well thanks for letting me share my excitement

 

[rabbitsfizz]

That's really good news, but you do know that there is NO way to tell by looking at a photograph exactly what colour or pattern a horse is, and there is no way of telling, more importantly, from a photograph whether or not your boy would be able to sire Brindles.

To be able to tell this, and it would be well worth your while doing, you will have to take samples from his stripes and his base coat and have him tested for Chimerism, as if he is a Chimera he will not pass the pattern on whatever sort of Brindle he is.

At the moment all that is known about Chimeras is that there are two sorts, I had never heard of the seasonal theory, but would warn you that it is just that and before you start accumulating roan mares it would be wise to test him.

 

[WTFFarm]

Thanks for the advice Rabbitsfizz. You have a good point. I'd never given chimera a thought (sure hope he's not lol)

I was hoping you'd spot this post because I thought of you when I heard he was brindle as you've always shown an interest when I've posted about him before (under "miniwhinny") and I know you've very knowledgeable on color and patterns.

 

[Riverdance]

I would love to see a picture of him shaved down.

As we spoke before, I have a bay filly with those strips on her too. She too comes down from the Komoko Little King Supreme lines, but her stripes are hard to see and seem to disappear as her coat grows in, as well as when she is first shaved down. Then a few days after clipping, the strips show up, then disappear again when the coat gets longer.

When Marbles was discovered with her first clipping, I spoke to Jon Eberth about Komoko King Supreme. He said they had never gotten the brindle pattern when using him for breeding. Yet people on this forum who have had some brindling in their horses, all say they come down from the Supreme lines.

Marbles is a double up on King Supreme as is the bay filly (though she is not as closely line bred as Marbles is). I have a couple of foals coming in 2010 who are really closely line bred. They are palominos though, so I am not sure that one would see the brindling even if it is there.

I have quite a bit of the Supreme line here as I own a daughter (Marbles dam) a grandson, (Windchaser, Marbles sire) , five granddaughters (one the dam of the bay filly) and quite a few great and great great grand kids. I have been breeding this line for several years and Marbles is really the first. Plus her dam has had two other full siblings (both I lost) that where just palominos. Though, to be honest with you, neither one was ever shaved down as one died the day she was born, the other died at 4 months old. So who knows if there was some brindling going on underneath their coats. Perhaps I will have to keep Marbles dam and repeat the breeding every year with hopes of getting another one.

Marbles and the bay filly are the first I have gotten with brindle type markings. I still do not consider the bay a brindle, but more of a smutty bay where they smuttiness has gone into lines.

When reading about brindles, Marbles does have the different textured coat, the bay filly does not.

I am not one to breed for color, as conformation is very important to me, but I may just try some experimenting to see if the brindle pattern would come out more often.

You might want to contact Celiia Penedo of the University of Californi Davis and have samples sent to her. She is the one who said Marbles was a true Brindle (possibly a chimera, though so far the testing says not). That way you will have a more accurate idea of what your boy is.

 

[WTFFarm]

Thanks Riverdance

Yep that hair texturing seems to be one consistant trait from everything I've read and been told.

I'm 100% with you on not breeding just for color too. If Ozy didn't have a combination of awesome conformation, perfect bite, straight legs, great bloodlines and a perfect disposition I would never give breeding a second thought. Lucky he's "all that and a bag of chips" lol

 

[~Lisa~]

COngrats... I am glad to hear I know there have been actually quite a few brindle minis that is exciting to have something so different

 

[Miniv]

Danna,

I am so HAPPY that your suspicions and feelings about Ozy were TRUE!

One thing you may want to look into is not just Komoko King Supreme in Ozy's background, but Supreme's dam AND Ozy's dam's pedigree. But we can talk about all that privately.

Just wanted to add........

And thank you for taking the time to do the research!

Maryann

 

[WTFFarm]

One thing you may want to look into is not just Komoko King Supreme in Ozy's background, but Supreme's dam AND Ozy's dam's pedigree. But we can talk about all that privately.

Thanks MiniV, I remember the first time I saw him the morning he was born at your place. Being a huge fan of duns I couldn't for the life of me figure out how a non dun had all those strong shoulder bars.

(e-mail me your ideas now you've got me wonderiing lol

).

 

[susanne]

Ah...I wondered who belonged to that cute bouncing elephant...

I'm glad you've delved further into Ozy's coloring and submitted photos. This is all so fascinating, including the relationship of the brindle coloring and the bloodlines.

I'm curious now as to how many types of brindle are out there, and how many are simply dismissed as bad clipping or whatever. If other color patterns vary so greatly, might not brindle vary just as widely, and might it not hide on other colors? (Such as Marbles' palomino sisters?)

I'll be watching your breeding results with Ozy and Riverdance's with Marbles, and any others out there. I assume someone is searching for genetic markers for brindle...but for now it's a fascinating mystery.

BTW...we had a bumper sticker on our old van that read W T F, but I don't think it was referring to your farm...

 

[WTFFarm]

With the top pole vaulter in the Central Valley Conference, a dirt biker who never stays on the ground and mini's who never seem to walk anywhere "Where They Fly" seemed the perfect fit for the farm name I've searched for

.

Susanne, I'm very sure the brindle pattern gets hidden. Just like cream can be seen as palomino and buckskin (what I equate to brindle pattern on roan background - very visible) you get cream on black and you get smokey black - just like brindle where the stripes are a similar color to body color. Doesn't change the genetics, does change the visual presentation. Talking to an owner of other seasonal brindles (harder to see colors) they say are producing other brindles so the genetics are there.

 

[Royal Crescent]

Well the confusion is over. I submitted a load of pictures over the past couple of weeks and just felt a big sign of relief when I got e-mails back sayinig "yes"
Ozymandias is a brindle.

I was just wondering if it is Celia Penedo of the University of California Davis that you submitted to? You did not really say who looked at the pics, and I am curious what kind of comments she made, if it is her. Are you going to submit all the hair/blood samples to to check on chimera?

Barb

 

[WTFFarm]

I haven't contacted Celia Penedo just because I didn't think there was a test for brindle. I may contact her and send her some hair samples but probably not 'til the spring. I really hope he's not a chimera. I highly doubt it because they are so rare. It would be nice to be able to produce a few more. I do want to contact other breeders (full sized horses) to see what colors they are breeding to show the markings...I'd say roan because the body looses it's color but the stripes don't. Yesterday I was all gungho about getting more mares but I'll really have to give breeding some thought. There's a huge contingent of folks on this message board whos horses are their life with showing, breeding, marketing (visiting this message board 24/7) lol etc but I'm not there - my TWO (lol) ponies are my pets

and my lawnmowers.

 

[Sue_C.]

SUPER!!! I always thought him to be one, nice to know it has been confirmed.

It is going to be very interesting in the next several years to see if these horses pass this on to at least a foal or two.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Susanne, I'm very sure the brindle pattern gets hidden. Just like cream can be seen as palomino and buckskin (what I equate to brindle pattern on roan background - very visible) you get cream on black and you get smokey black - just like brindle where the stripes are a similar color to body color. Doesn't change the genetics, does change the visual presentation. Talking to an owner of other seasonal brindles (harder to see colors) they say are producing other brindles so the genetics are there.

Do not confuse Pattern with colour.

Colours can hide but patterns always express, and, although it is possible that Brindle is an exception to this rule, I do not think it is likely. So starting from the premise that Brindle does not hide, there is no reason why we should not be able to see the 50% of Brindles that inheritable Brindle should throw. Yet we are not.

There is something else going on here, I am certain.

When Champagne and Pearl were 'discovered' they exploded [ (although I accept that these are colours and, by my own maxim, a different kettle of fish!) Brindle is still rare.

Get him tested, find out if he is inheritable or Chimera, I know it will make no difference to the amount you love him, but it would be interesting!!!

I haven't contacted Celia Penedo just because I didn't think there was a test for brindle. I may contact her and send her some hair samples but probably not 'til the spring. I really hope he's not a chimera. I highly doubt it because they are so rare. It would be nice to be able to produce a few more. I do want to contact other breeders (full sized horses) to see what colors they are breeding to show the markings...I'd say roan because the body looses it's color but the stripes don't. Yesterday I was all gung ho about getting more mares but I'll really have to give breeding some thought. There's a huge contingent of folks on this message board whose horses are their life with showing, breeding, marketing (visiting this message board 24/7) lol etc but I'm not there - my TWO (lol) ponies are my pets

and my lawnmowers.

There is not a test for Brindle, there is only a test for Chimera. Testing negative for Chimera does not mean the horse is a Brindle, but since yours has been identified as Brindle, testing for Chimera would help.

Come on over to

http://forum.equine-color.info/

and talk about him, we will give you all the help that we can, and learn something ourselves at the same time!!

 

[Jill]

W-T-F, I didn't know you'd changed your forum name.

Congrats on confirming Ozy is the color you always thought he was.

 

[WTFFarm]

Get him tested, find out if he is inheritable or Chimera, I know it will make no difference to the amount you love him, but it would be interesting!!! There is not a test for Brindle, there is only a test for Chimera. Testing negative for Chimera does not mean the horse is a Brindle, but since yours has been identified as Brindle, testing for Chimera would help.

Come on over to

http://forum.equine-color.info/

and talk about him, we will give you all the help that we can, and learn something ourselves at the same time!!

Thanks for the invite, I'll come on over

. Also I will get him tested...guess you never know until you find out.

I don't think I was clear in my explanation of the color..I also don't think you can hide the brindle marks. They're either there and seen or they're not. I think some colors show the expression more than others. Like on one of those website links that I posted where there is a brindle red bay and also obviously on Ozy. The author of those web pages told me that her "seasonal" brindles (I think that's her way of saying that their markings show in their summer coats and not in their winter coats) are throwing the same patterns. I will come visit your color forum because I'd love to bounce some ideas off people.

I used to breed duns. I found that when I (and a friend doing the same) added a dun carrying the smutty gene that we got really wild stripes. It was as if the addition of smutty enhanced the dun gene - just interesting as it's believed smutty is involved in brindle.

 

[WTFFarm]

W-T-F, I didn't know you'd changed your forum name.
Congrats on confirming Ozy is the color you always thought he was.

Thanks, it's just nice having the puzzle answered.

Oh and it's WTFFarm NOT W-T-F

! Guess you can call me WTFF for short. Maybe I'll sign back in under "miniwhinny" as I have that account still registered lol.

 

[miniwhinny]

There we go....move Nellie to miniwhinny. Now everyone confusing wtfFARM with w_t_f can relax hahahhahaha Oh what dirty minds y'all have

 

[Jill]

Well, it is such "common" internet lingo, you can't look at that other name and not think it. Besides, it's always good to "know" members for their long standing LB names... but then of course I'm talking from the perspective of someone who's "Jill" here and in real life

Anyway, again, I'm glad Ozy's color / pattern is now "official" and you yourself had it correctly identified all along

 

[miniwhinny]

Besides, it's always good to "know" members for their long standing LB names... but then of course I'm talking from the perspective of someone who's "Jill" here and in real life

Yeah, your right, I'm pretty used to miniwhinny anyhow and when you think about it I really don't need a farm name...don't breed, don't show and only own two lawnmowers