Miniature Horse vs Pony

[BLACKWATER FARMS]

The identity issue of the American Miniature Horse I think lies in the fact that there is such a grey area as to what is really a pony and what is really a horse. By definition (and it is relative) it is anywhere from 14.2 H or less or 14 H or less is considered a pony--interestingly most of the registries say at the heighest point of the withers.

There are some horse breeds that allow individuals under the 14.2 H to still compete--Arabs, Morgans, QH's, even though they are in the pony classification of height.

Secondly, what makes a breed a breed is it's type (certain characteristics that breed true for that breed), height is part of type-but NOT the onl thing. In order for the American Miniature horse to be a "BREED" it has to have some type /characteristics that make it distinct beyond just height--there are many other characterstics that make a breed a breed--you shouldn't look at an Arab and mistake it for a quarter horse, a belgian for a hackney pony, but this seems to be the case with the AMH--

I"m interested in some of the history for the decisions of the respective registries in regards to their height limitations and where they came up with them.

Linda

 

[R3]

I think that to some extent, I would have to disagree that a 'breed' is all about having a certain 'type'. No one would argue that Quarter Horses are not a Breed, but if you look at modern Quarter Horses you see all kinds of 'type'. The halter horses look nothing like their winning hunter horses; a ranch horse is likely to look much difference that their race horses. Quarter Horses allow crossing with certain other breeds therefore the type of horses they are producing changes to suit the needs of the breeder. Regardless of whatever the description (standard of perfection) the Quarter Horse is supposed to be, the horses do not have to look like that to be registered.

I think one of the primary things that makes a 'breed' is that the bloodlines are pure and known. They are restricted, either completley closed, or open only to other recognized breeds whose qualities are believed to enhance the genetics of horses already registered within the breed.

 

[BLACKWATER FARMS]

I think that to some extent, I would have to disagree that a 'breed' is all about having a certain 'type'.

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By DEFINITION the word BREED means a race or variety of animals that produce/perpetuate it's distinctive or special characteristics by INHERITANCE--those special or distinctive characteristics are the definition of TYPE

The fact that both registries are moving towards perpetuating the AMH as a BREED fits into that classification of needing more definition of TYPE otherwise both are no more than HEIGHT registries.

The point of closing registries, is supposed to minimize the variety of type. Since quarter horses in the performance ring do not have to compete in the halter ring to have their performance titles, they don't necessarily have to look like a quarter horse they have to perform the function. That's why horses that compete successfully in multiple arenas are often more sought after than niche horses.

lkf

 

[stormy]

The shetland registry clearly demonstrates that a breed does not have to have one standard, with in that registry there are the Foundation, Classic and Modern TYPES. European and draft types are also registered within these categorys without restriction.

 

[Shari]

Genetic wise they are ..or should say most are Shetland pony, refined over the many years. Marketing wise...they are a miniature horse.

Nothing wrong with either.

 

[BLACKWATER FARMS]

But with the Shetlands, --there still is a distinction as to what those types are Foundation, Modern or Classic, and they have definitions of what that means. They also register crosses (national show pony and american show pony).

This dilemma is not restricted to minis, shetlands, draft horses, or dogs (ie diff size schnauzers, diff size american eskimo, aussies etc)--

It's all arbitrary, one club says a mini horse in any equine under 34, another says its two height classifications but go as high as 38, some registries measure at the mane hairs, height at the withers, base of the withers.

What makes more sense is to have a miniature shetland, a mini arab a mini quarter horse a mini thoroughbred etc--all are minis, but have distinct characteristics to differentiate between those under a certain height (whatever you'd like that to be and where ever you'd like that to be measured)--if you have a mini shetland competing against a mini arab, they are two distinct types of mini horses ponies or whatever. It's like saying in the AKC toy group all the dogs are judged based on their height. What makes one better than the other? It's their breed type and how they compare to their breed standard. It's the same thing in horses. You don't judge an Arab in the halter arena against the quarter horse standard, you judge it against the breed that it is.

My point is that really both registries are height registries, if they want to be "breeds" then they need to distinguish them as a breed other than height alone.

Genetically all the dogs are the same --all the horses are the same--ponies too--what distinguishes any of them is what their breed type is supposed to be and how they produce that to their offspring.

lkf

 

[Joanne]

I think you have hit on the issue Linda.

I have often wondered how the judges could judge a quarter horse type, Arabian type and Thoroughbred against each other. It becomes a subjective selection process.

I have my favorite type of miniature horse that I breed for, but I am glad there is a variety.

You are right though, with no established "breed type" how can we become a breed and not just a registry?

If we are established as a breed, would over-sized, pedigreed horses be allowed to remain in the gene pool, but not compete?

 

[MountainViewMiniatures]

A true breed is by blood. The quarter horses do allow breeding to TBs (but no other breed) and even then they are placed in an appendix registry but can advance to the regular registry if they are proven in the show ring and undergo a conformation test to the quarter horse standard. Yes there is an actual standard of what an AQHA should look like! There are definately different types -bulldog, middle of the road and modern but all are still (or should be) easily identified as a quarter horse.

Even if they don't advance they are still allowed to compete in AQHA shows and have registrable (but appendix) offspring.

For years, cremellos and perlinos were not allowed to be registered as people mistakenly thought these coat colors caused genetic defects especially in the eyes! Excessive white caused other horses to crop out (not allowed papers but many registered in the Paint Assoc) - now that the excessive white is allowed, the Paint Assoc will no longer accept the horses that would have in the past not be granted AQHA papers. Excessive white is still considered a fault and will count against the horse in the conformation (halter) classes

Truly the AMHA is a young association with many growing pains still to come but I believe they will get there - actually any assoc never stops growing and evovling if they want to have a successful assoc and strong membership! As long as the decisions keep the welfare and improvement of the breed in mind and not cater to special interests they will get there in the end.