Measuring under/over seems so

[nootka]

It seems to me that so many horses are fairly close to the 34" line (I"m mostly referring to AMHA horses, however I know some AMHRs that are working hard to stay in the under category).

I've seen some of the most beautiful horses and then I learn that they may in fact be well over the 34" cutoff. I know we've discussed how to deal with it honestly, but here is a question for you:

If you found out that the stallion (or mare) that you felt was THE best example of horseflesh out there, was perhaps 2" taller than the 34" cutoff or even put 40" instead of 38" for you over fans, would you cease and desist pursuing buying his offspring, or a breeding to him, etc.?

For me, it might and it might not.

With certain mares, I would be willing to chance it to have one of his offspring (I have some horses in mind, here, but won't share). I have mares I would not cross him with, but this would all depend on honesty, of course, and my knowledge of my mares' tendency for throwing smaller or larger foals.

All in all, a good horse is a good horse, and I do tend to like them taller so it is no surprise to me that many of the horses I've seen that are just amazing in their proportions are right around 34" and some of them may be over that.

I've seen horses measure a LOT differently on the same day, and of course the whole measuring can of worms can be such a crapshoot.

Liz M.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Liz, Im with you, it would depend on the mare as far as breeding and also depends on how fantastic that get im interested in buying is. I know for a fact because I have stood beside some AMHA National Champion horses that are NOT 34 inches. They were and some still are being promoted for breeding but you never see them at a show anymore. There are also some at the world show, and yes I will get severely flamed here , but, they really measure over 34". In spite of measuring being video taped..... it is happening and you know it is.[/SIZE]

A good horse is a good horse period. I recomend rather honesty and disclosing the real height but some dont.

I doubt that I would go for the 40 incher tho.

Lyn

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Hmm interesting question and the answer is over 34 wouldnt hesitate to breed to them I have a B program

breed a horse with R papers that is 40 in tall is a whole other story and I cant really see a reason I would do it at this point UNLESS horse was ASPC/R reg as was the mare

 

[minicount]

As I don't breed for a particular size, although I like them under 34", it wouldn't make a difference. Now if I was striving for 30" or under it likely would, although there are so many factors in height I still would likely try it if I felt the horse was worth it.

Question: If you knew a horse was over what would you do? I believe in AMHA if you own a offspring you can request that the horse be measured for a very small fee. Would you believe that as long as the sire/dam was making a worthwhile contribution to the breed to "turn a blind eye"? But if you do it to one it's a bit of a double standard to get upset about those that have a + horse but registered under isn't it?

**I should say it that I would not.***

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I dont think I would ever report it for fear of reprisal. Some of the tall ones belong to some very influential breeders out there. I have told people in private if they asked me but never put my 50 dollars down to complain.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Very interesting points Liz.

I have a lovely 2 yr old who is currently 36". Her sire and dam were both under 32". Whodathunk?

But because of this lovely lady I got over my prejudice about the talls over the littles. She was AMHA/ as a baby I bought her into the AMHR and man am I glad. Treasure has a lovely pedigree and I look so forward to seeing her kids someday. Tall or small.

As for the 40", no way that is just too much IMHO. I think this will be a cool thread.

 

[Loess Hills]

We have a horse whose permanent height (AMHA & AMHR) is 32". Last year he measured 31 1/2, 31 3/4, and this year he measured 31 1/4! This is not our measuring but by three different STEWARDS at three different AMHR shows and one AMHA show.

We've had a horses measure over what we thought their height was, but never have we had one measure under! Makes you wonder what is going on!!!!

 

[Annetta]

There were some interesting measurements going on at a certain National show this year. Didn't anyone else notice that?? I guess fear of reprisals is the reason no one puts down their $50 there to make a complaint?

For whatever reason, I always measure mine tall; take 'em to a show & the steward will have them at least 1/2" smaller every time. So, when I measure mine right on or just under the limit, I know that they'll measure just fine at the shows!

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I know at R nationals there was some cheezy measuring going on. I was showing a 36 inch horse in a driving class and there were other B horses in that class that TOWERED over him! I saw a little girl riding a pony that HAD to be at least 40 inches. They went right by us after being measured IN!!!![/SIZE]

I guess it happens at both national shows doesnt it?

Lyn

 

[ruffian]

Unless you have a stick, it's very difficult to accurately judge a horse by itself. One thing that can give you an estimate is to measure yourself! Measure where 34", 36, even 40, and you'd be surprised by the differences. 40" is tough to get by a measurer, even cheating!!

On me, 34" is about my jeans pocket level. I can quickly guestimate how tall a horse is, or at least ball park.

If we are allowing 40" horses to show at AMHR nationals without protesting, we can't complain when they do.

 

[nootka]

I do know there are a lot of horses out there showing and breeding that are over, and many people know it.

I guess I'm just saying that in certain instances I would go ahead and use them anyway, if I was fairly confident that my own horse would help keep the height down and I was sure that this was THE best cross for my horse.

I do know there are lots of great "under legitimately" horses out there, but there are a couple out there I really like and with the right mare, I would certainly go for the risk of a few extra inches....but it all depends on honesty, too.

I think if I were to contract to breed my mare to their stallion, they should sit me down and give me the truth and let ME decide, same as with anything else.

Liz M.

 

[Miniv]

Like was posted above....a great horse is a great horse.

For OUR breeding program, over or under 34" isn't an issue, but we would probably shy away from the possiblility of 40" .....

MA

 

[nootka]

Ok, then, say the stallion of your dreams was listed as height of 37.75", however, you had heard of him and suspected him (seen him in person) of being more like 39.50" or the like....

and you had a mare say she was 36" tall and routinely had babies at least an inch or two taller than her, even when bred to taller stallions.

Would you go for it?

I think I would, myself, if that horse was just "all that" and I have seen a few that were! However, then I wonder what am I saying when I myself try to abide by all the rules the registry imposes and be honest with everyone.

Thanks for all the responses.

Liz M.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Two comments here -

1. Measuring of horses. Since both registries still hold with the last mane hair measurement, it is going to be really arbitrary on how tall a horse is actually. This past year one of our new stallions at a show, while being measured dipped his back (no I didn't teach him that!), but he dropped at least an inch in height. I mentioned this to a breeder/judge I know and was told about certain breeders/trainers that will purposely sore a horse's back to get them to measure shorter by dipping when the horse hears the stick coming down.

We saw horses this year being shown at the Regional level (by people that I assume should know better), that somehow measured in size - very interesting to watch a class of 30-32" horses and one is definitely lots taller - and usually wins the class!

It also depends on who's measuring. One of our stallions Roger, I've never measured under 27 1/2-3/4", yet at all the shows he was at this summer he never measured taller than 27 1/4" generally right at 27", once at 26 3/4", so who's right? This goes with taller minis as well.

I also learned this year about the 'trick' of glueing cut tail hair to give a longer mane length down the horses back, easily dropping a horse by an inch or two. I won't comment about that - I was shocked someone would go to that length, but I guess I shouldn't be!

So, off the soapbox on that.

2. Height of a stallion. An unproven stallion, I would be very concerned about his height as I would like to know if he's very dominant in what he throws - some are and will throw lots of small or tall or ?

If he is proven and he's everything I wanted to breed to, I probably would breed to him.

It unfortunately is one of the ethical 'issues' we have to deal with as a breeder to ignore this or not. I'm not going to 'out' anyone on their horses heights, as honestly I don't know anyone that height issues wouldn't affect including breeders, judges, and both registries elected officials - I just think a solution should be worked out and hope it will some day!

Perhaps some day we'll use the withers to measure height and have a 'no show' registration for the taller horses that do produce the insize foals.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Lots of good points Michelle, I have to admit tho that as much as I have been around to the big shows the gluing of tail hair to the mane is a new one for me! I really like the idea of the No show registration or maybe it could be called breeding stock reg....like the amha did for some of the bigger old mares labeling them as foundation oversize. If so many people are lying about horses true heights then there has to be some other answer. I have been told by several people that I was nuts when I sent in the amha papers on three mares that I had go over...and not by much but over just the same. These were people that were my friends! Some were also people that put mares on different stallions reports to get both sets of papers.... no longer close friends. I think the reason that I dont make a complaint is because I dont want to make enemies out of the people that would be affected and also then those that would subsequently be affected if a horses papers were pulled.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Laura]

Many, many of the most famous foundation stallions for the breed were listed as 34" or under and many were absolutely not. I even contacted a breeder one time about an older stallion I had seen many, many years ago. When I mentioned him being over 34" (he was AMHA/AMHR) the breeder had a SNIT FIT until I told her I had SEEN the horses several times with his previous owners. The the breeder kind of sighed and said "yeah, he's a little tall".

To me, yes this is a height breed, but conformation is conformation, is onformation. If it's what I want and is measures 38" or under and I think it will suit my program, I'll breed it. One of my top producing stallions (that a fellow forum member later bought) actually came to me with AMHA papers. I laughed when they handed them to me and said "what's this, wallpaper?". They asserted he wasn't THAT much over 34"...bull, he was 36"!!!! We bred him AMHR only (to mares as small as 31", since he was ultra refined) and got SUPER babies.

 

[Lauralee]

Whether or not a horse will stay under or measure under the 34" mark means very little to me. My horses show AMHR exclusively so the under/over issue is a nonissue with me when buying.

Selling, can be tricky though, as many buyers are stuck on the 34 and under being the only way to go. They just need to attend an AMHR show and they'd see differently!

A good horse is a good horse no matter what the height division. BUT I don't want something that is over 38 and unregisterable with AMHR. So that is where I draw the line. Also, when they get that big, the feed bills and space requirments increase proportionally, and that's just not where I want to go.

 

[Ashley]

I know all about horses looking taller then they are. My gelding I just sold is one of them. I thought for sure this year he was gonna be a B he looked hug this spring, he looked like he was like 36". Took him to a show, measured in at 33.5", he is permanate at 34".

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

[SIZE=14pt]. I have been told by several people that I was nuts when I sent in the amha papers on three mares that I had go over...and not by much but over just the same. Lyn[/SIZE]

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I Have had several say the same thing to me with horses I paid good money for and they went over.. but boy what a web of lies that would start from not only the registries but then to potential customers of said foals and on and on way to complicated for me. Easier for sure for me to gladly turn over my AMHA papers- hey that is what started me on my B program anyway so I guess in a way I should be grateful

 

[nootka]

I myself want to keep things honest, too, so that is why I would also err on the side of safety, height-wise.

The only one I had that I was truly worried about was my White Russian son. He was 33" as a long yearling and you can bet I was sweating that!

He has been measured twice, by two different show stewards as a three year old and a four year old and is 33.50/33/75". I perm'ed him at 34.00" w/AMHR.

His daughter is following in his footsteps and is very tall for her age (guess around 30" as a weanling/6 mo. old).

I will definitely let those buyers know that she very well could go over (her dam is an honest 33.25", though), and will plan accordingly for that eventuality.

If my White Russian son had gone over, I had a guarantee w/the seller, but I definitely would have not just kept breeding him and kept it to myself. I was urged to do that by more than one person, though.....

I hope everyone can be honest in their transactions, though I am surprised how easy it is to get several VERY different measurements on one horse.

What it boils down to me is pretty much a case by case basis, I guess, though I don't think it's nice that anyone keeps "secrets" and takes advantage of others.

I do know of one mare in this area that was nearly 38" tall, she was NOT FO (foundation oversize) w/AMHA, yet they were breeding her to AMHA stallions and selling her babies w/AMHA papers (I don't even know that they had AMHR papers for her). When they sold the mare, though, they would not give the new owner those AMHA papers as then they decided she had "outgrown" them...and all this after she had had at least four foals that I could determine! Shameful!

Believe me, I have not forgotten the name of that person who did that!

Liz M.