Measuring...Solutions???

[Cathy_H]

ALL you have to do is follow the existing rules. Hire a measurer that will NOT back down from the handler when they get angry & spout off intimidations. Have a second person standing with the measurer for verification & moral support. Video tape each horse being measured..... The ending results will have a domino effect - Once word gets around that horses WILL be measured accurately other handlers will take notice......... ALSO - any person measuing that was proven to give in to a handler or mismeasure will be banned from measuring & their name made public. OF course the horse would have to be remeasured at that show by someone qualified to do it. If they know this going in then it might make a difference.................... If the handlers can't be made honest then this threat to the person doing the measuring just might ..................................................... Hello Whitestar, long time no see.. Yes, we have read about this problem on here ever since the beginning................................... Also as for protecting your horse, things can be done to your horse that you will not be able to capture on video... Also they may not retaliate at the nationals but another show or another place down the road. Like a sly fox waiting in the shadows to pounce when you are off guard. Slimy, low down, greedy not a name in the dictionary to describe them & some unknowingly call them friend or are keeping them in business!

 

[Belinda]

Hello,

I have watched this Topic for Days now !! Not sure where it is going ?? I personally watched more horses than I care to count get measured... I saw several sent back that the owner /trainer did not like the measurement. I also witnessed one be completely measured out of the show :new_shocked: And that horse was with a very high profile trainer

: He took the news said thank you and left !!!! I saw the horse that had so much gossip going on about how big he was measured.!!! the trainer was told to square the horse twice, He did all 3 stewards were standing there the horse easy measured in the under division !!! I myself would have bet the $50 he would not !!! I would have lost that $50

Sometimes when horses have necks that are set on correctly and stand alert all the time look to be bigger than actually they are... !!

Our stewards are human and they do the best job I have ever seen done.. Jeanne who is head of the stewards committee is SURE NOT AFRAID OF ANYONE !!!! I saw her track down and confront many rumors to stop them if they were not true... and guess what she did stop several dead in their tracks... Way to go Jeanne !!

I NEVER NEVER HEARD that anyone was threaten if they protested ??? :no: :no: I had 3 horses measure into different classes, a couple were as little as a 1/4 of an inch.. one was a 1/2 inch.. but Hey life goes on..

I always have said , if you have a good horse it is a good horse no matter what size it is.. If you have a really good , 28 " horse , in order to win a Grand you eventually will have to show against the BIG horses !! So now do you all want Grands for every size .. Think about it... ! If you have a 34 1/4" horse if you want to win a Grand you will more than likely have to show against a 38" horse.. So I guess I am missing some of your points here..

I had a mare this year, that had a pedigree for 4 generations with nothing over 34" she was 37" as a two year old.. ??

:

: I have a Reg. Classic Shetland mare that is two and only 36" .. so guess my point here is , Just because they are big does not mean they are a Reg.. Shetland!!!!

:

I am going to be seated on the board in Oct.. I listen and read what all of you are saying. From the measurement to the suffix problems. Actually I have already spoken to several about this suffix deal.. Hoping to work on this at the board meeting.. Running out and registering every name in the book is not the solution .. It will just really jam things up... So will try to approach this issue also..

Well this is JMO

:

Thanks for reading

Belinda

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well put, Belinda.

As I and a number of other people have already said, all you need to do is make sure that the rules already in place are enforced.

IF you then find you still have a problem that is the time you discuss changing the rules.

So, when all these written complaints come in about this, you will make sure they get listened to??

 

[Minimor]

so you're saying that the real truth of the matter is, every single horse that was out in the ring was correctly measured without anything to "help" that horse fit into its division? If we could watch a tape of every horse being measured we would not see one horse being stood stretched for measuring? We would not see one handler pressing down on the horse to make him drop a little bit lower*? We would not see the stick come off the floor during any measurement?

*I'm not talking about horses that drop away on their own (possibly due to prior training, to use that term loosely!) for whatever reason. And I know it's not against AMHR rules to touch the horse during measuring, but the point is, if someone is pressing down on the horse to make it sag its back, that's hardly a true measurement of that horse's height is it?

So every horse was fairly and accurately measured and we wouldn't see anything "fake" going on if we could watch hours of tape of the official measuring??

 

[Jill]

Sometimes when horses have necks that are set on correctly and stand alert all the time look to be bigger than actually they are... !!

Belinda is exactly right on about this! And here I come with less than a decade of mini experience to confirm what a well known expert has to say (I know that's got to be laughable to some folks).

However, I was just telling a friend exactly what Belinda said here. I have two horses and to look at and honestly even to handle, one seems to be inches taller than the other. Even standing near each other, you'd swear the one was a lot taller. However, get the stick out, and they are the SAME height.

I've been wondering how much of the people upset on the measuring could have been seeing something I see in my own back yard so to speak. This one horse is so upheaded and the other is built differently. Same height but a real optical illusion going on...

 

[OhHorsePee]

Belinda, it's not the neck. It's the actual height. Maybe you were not in the class these were in. Maybe you weren't there at the time these particular horses were measured in. It was very noticeable. Everyone in the stands and in the ring saw it. People has just had enough of it.

Fran

 

[Belinda]

We would not see the stick come off the floor during any measurement?

So every horse was fairly and accurately measured and we wouldn't see anything "fake" going on if we could watch hours of tape of the official measuring??

FAKE ??? I saw nothing I thought was Fake, whatever that means.

If you would want to watch measuring for hours that is up to you.. I watched on and off for 4 days !!! I saw horses get moved from one class to another and as I said before one horse measured completly OUT !!!

It was very noticeable. Everyone in the stands and in the ring saw it. People has just had enough of it.

If eveyone there but me saw so many BIG horses , and they are tired of it, Why did they not take it up with the Steward or Stewards as they were sure NOT hard to find.. They had a table right as you went in the door , and Jeanne was down at the make up arena just about all the time.. Please Don't go there about threats and such , because I just have not heard any of that.. Believe it I get around and not much gets by me , if I don't hear it first hand , I have many many little ears that can't wait to pass on RUMORS !! And that is just what they are if you do not have the words straight from the horses mouth.. ( NO pun intended ) :bgrin

I am with the rest if someone threatens you with the intent to harm one of your animals it has just become a POLICE matter and believe me that is where I would take it.. Make no Mistake , someone threatens me or my horses they are reported to the correct authorities... :nono: :nono: :nono:

I say

"STOP COMPLAINING AND DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT IF YOU DON'T LIKE HOW IT IS BEING HANDLED"

Again this is JMO !!!

 

[Minimor]

Belinda, by "fake" I meant stretching the horse and/or pressing down on the horse's back for measuring, which was my actual question in the first part of my post above. Can you honestly tell me that each and every horse was measured without either of those 2 things being done?

 

[OhHorsePee]

We are doing something about it! I promise.

I am new and would not know who Jeanne is by sight. Wish the staff would have worn name tags or something to identify themselves. And not being sure of all of the regs kinda leaves you out to dry.

Belinda, you were so busy. Look how many days it took for Kay or I to even see you except for in the ring. I am writing this respectfully and hope that it comes across as such.

Fran

 

[Belinda]

. Can you honestly tell me that each and every horse was measured without either of those 2 things being done?

I can HONESTLY say that in the time I was there the measuring was on the up and up .. !! Did you WITTNESS something different ???

Wish the staff would have worn name tags or something to identify themselves.

They all wore name tags All week

:

:

Belinda, you were so busy. Look how many days it took for Kay or I to even see you except for in the ring.

Yes Fran I was extemely busy !!! Never saw you all when you came and cleaned stalls,, Did anyone ever get pictures posted..??

If I was not there and I was not showing I was up at the measuring table

: It was just a few isles from my stalls so was very easy to hang out there... And that is what I did.. I was not to busy to know what was going on that is for sure !!!

I hope whatever it is you are doing you make sure you go to the proper channels to get it done , I would hate for all your hard work to be for Nothing..

 

[Ashley]

There is a few horses who I thought looked big out in the ring, however when actually standing down beside them, they were not as tall.

I also know some horses can look way taller then they are, I have a few of them myself.

I guess I dont get the whole, not allowing shetlands to show..........heck every mini goes back to shetlands. My opionion I dont care what breed they are, if they are under 38 let them show.

I do know of one horse that measured out of showing. I was looking at him as he was forsale, I wanted to see him show however he never did as he measured out by 1/4"

 

[OhHorsePee]

Proper channels all the way.

: Kay has the pictures Frankie sent her. She has been extrememly busy and trying to rest today. Was up all night with the delivery of Code Red. I just got to speak to her for a few minutes.

Must not have seen the name tags.

:

Fran

 

[ruffian]

I guess I dont get the whole, not allowing shetlands to show..........heck every mini goes back to shetlands. My opionion I dont care what breed they are, if they are under 38 let them show

Shetlands have their own show --It's called CONGRESS! I've been in minis for 20 years, and am very upset by what's happening to the BREED. Sorry, I don't see this as a Height registry, no matter what anybody says. If a pony is a registered pony - SHOW IT AS A PONY NO MATTER WHAT SIZE IT IS. I breed my horses according to the MINIATURE standard of perfection, not the Shetland one! While I was unable to make the R Nationals this year, I've heard from folks that were there that it was a definitely a "Pony" show. I have miniatures because I want miniature horses, not Shetlands, or Hackneys, or Quarter Horses or Arabians.

OK nuff said about that.

On to measuring. In Michigan, the measuring is done right out in the open, between the barns and the show office, so people are going by all the time. AND, Jeannie is our show manager, and believe you me, she don't put up with nothing from nobody! She may be tiny, but she's like a mini stallion thinking he's a Warmblood! There's not going to be anything going on that Jeanne hears about without her taking action. BUT she has to know about it at the time, not days or weeks later on a web forum.

If you want an accurate measurement, measure were the rest of the entire equine world measures - at the top of the withers. It's much more difficult to change the height by stretching or pushing down. Unclipped hair left in a line down the backbone can be mistaken for mane hair, and measurements can be taken inches below the withers and actual mane.

 

[susanne]

Regardless of whether or not there is an actual problem with measuring, there is a most definite PERCEIVED problem that must be addressed.

Again, I suggest very public measuring at all AMHR shows, not just Nationals. Just like sunshine laws in government, being in full view of the public would not only discourage cheaters, but would emphasize the integrity of stewards and (hopefully) quiet the gossip about those who have measured in fair and square.

It may not eliminate underhanded techniques, but it would go a long way toward that goal, and it is a very simple way to enforce the existing rules.

 

[Ashley]

So your saying a horse that is registured AMHR as well as Shetland should not be allowed to show?

Well if that is the case I guess many people in the show world will be ticking you off next year and years to come.

Me personally dont care. The best/nices horse is going to win. I have seen R only horses be the double registured ones. It can be done, it all comes down to the best horse.

 

[kaykay]

I know a few people are wondering why i havent posted. wellllll been gone for almost a week from my family while in tulsa then came home and stayed up all night to mare stare then had to go to a horse meeting today etc. I kinda have to spend some family time or they are all going to divorce me lol.

Anyway I want to address a couple things. If people are too afraid to even post on this thread is it any wonder they are petrified to protest at nationals??? I cannot believe how many people have called and emailed me but simply cannot participate in this thread for fear of being black listed at the shows next year. That to me speaks volumes. (and pls keep emailing and calling me!)

I along with many others are trying to come up with the best way to resolve this. Not sure yet if its a rule change or something else. But I figure this many people putting their heads together should be able to come up with something.

Belinda the only thing I take issue with that you said is regarding shorter horses having to show against tall ones in the championship class etc. That is only one class. If we all didnt care what a horse measures and if a great horse should be able to beat any other horse regardless of size, then why have any size division at all?? Then maybe we should just go by age and totally drop the size divsions?? Now we all know that just isnt going to happen. Because while it could and probably has been done it will be extremely rare to see a 28" horse beat a 38" horse. I thought that was the whole reason for the size division classes?? If im wrong please tell me. And I just want to say thanks again for making the cmhr auction so fun

This was my first nationals. I never saw where the measuring was done. I never saw anyone with an amhr name badge on. I have no idea what the steward or jeanne look like. Its really hard when your new to a national show and have no idea where anything is or who anyone is. I do know at our club show we had the steward and manager etc wear specific shirts so they would be easily identified. That could help??

There are still two different issues being lumped into one. There are the people not happy with shetlands showing and people just not happy with the measuring. Two totally different issues. My horse was BORN with both amhr and aspc papers. So was my other aspc/amhr stallion. So to say that they shouldnt be allowed to show is ridicules in my opinion. But they should have to honestly be able to measure in at 38 or less

ps i will post pics of us cleaning belindas stalls tomarrow on the cmhr forum. just too tired to resize and load right now

Kay

 

[jdhand]

Any of us that have an issue about the National Show, Measurement, Standard of Perfection, ect. YOU MUST PUT IT IN WRITING TO THE DIRECTORS OF AMHR AND THE PRESIDENT. ANYTHING YOU SEND MUST BE DONE IN WRITING. READ YOUR RULEBOOK. I ALWAYS SEND THIS KIND OF STUFF CERTIFIED MAIL. I AM GOING TO WRITE ABOUT MY CONCERNS. IF WE DON'T GET ANYWHERE WRITING OUR ONLY OTHER WAY TO GET THEIR ATTENTION IS TO NOT ATTEND THE NATIONAL SHOW. AMHR makes lots of money off of all the minature horses that attend the National Show. If we don't get answers then we just all need to boycot the show next year and that will get their attention. This is just my opinion.

 

[OhHorsePee]

There you go, Dinda! It's going to take letters from a lot of people. Mine will be by certified mail. Someone has to sign for them that way.

Ron and I stood Legacy and my ASPC/AMHR filly up. Both measure 34" at the last true mane hair. We both stood back and you can tell they are the same measurement. Yes, one has a longer neck. Can still tell the backs are the same height. We noted no illusion in height by the neck. That is speaking of our two horses. Can not say what other people perceive of their own, but you could tell the true height of ours.

Fran

 

[Donna]

Guys, I am with Balinda on this, I was in the barn where the measuring took place. I saw allot of horses being measured and by stewards WITH name tags. I never saw a horse stretched out, and believe you me, I walked by that table allot. As far as a public place of measurement, well, the table was located just beside the mens and ladies restroom, ok, thats public! I had horses that measured tall, I took them back, clipped the hair off, rasped the hooves and took them back again, allot of people did. Did I stretch out the horse, nope, did I get them under, two yes, one nope. My stallion Cassanova, as a yearling went over, only by a 1/4 inch. I showed him and yes he looked like he was so small in the class. Did the otheres go over but were measured down, I dont know. I do know that I got an 8th with him!

I personally did not see any measuring that was not done right. I did however see horses that did not meet the Standard of Perfection as described in the rule book. I do not know the height of these horses, but I doubt they will be shown again at the AMHR National Show. The horse that carried home the Championship ribbon and Crystal bowl was clearly a Hackney. The nose upon its face was obvious. Don't get me wrong, the horse was Beautiful! But, not the breed of horse I desire.

For four years I have shown my minis at Nationals. For four years there has been this garbage debated back and forth with no evail. I know that directors, trainers, stewards, other judges clearly saw the horses being shown. If they did not, they should pull the videos and look at them. Every class is videoed, (sp).

I have been to the convention and gotten copies of the year end reports. You can reguest of copy if you are a member. The minis are carrying this club. That is no secret. Thousands of dollars come into the club just from this show. Congress usually goes in the hole. I am not saying that Congress should be deleted. I totally support the Congress, I think it is wonderful, Although, I do not have any horses registered ASPC. I think that possibly one day I may. Those horses are beautiful, the breeding is incredible, the necks are LONG and upright. But, in my opinion, they are not minis. I know that minis came from breeding down ponies, thats a given. Most ASPC horses that I see at the National show, MOST, will outgrow their AMHR papers.

My suggestion would be, and this is only MY suggestion and opinion, "If you have a horse double registered, AMHR and ASPC, then you have to choose where you want to show that horse and once the choice has been made you will not be allowed to crossover. If you choose AMHR Nationals to show that horse and the horse measures over at that level, then your eligibility to show AMHR is no longer an option and you cannot take that horse then to congress.

By making a choice of where you want to show your horse you would be placing it into the proper show according to the height you think your horse will show best.

This was my only beef with the way Nationals went. I know that allot of people think that ponies cleaned up, well allot of ponies did, that was obvious, However, there were allot of fine bred horses there, horses that will not go over. My minis are very nice and I have always been able to show in the ribbons, but even I can see as a breeder, that my program has to change to keep up with the breeders that are winning.

The miniature horse as we knew it years ago has been improoved,with proper nutrition, selective breeding and overall better care.

 

[MAB]

Ok, I have never posted here but would like to put in my 2 cents worth. Just got back from Nationals where I showed 3 halter horses and 1 driving horse. My suggestion..............hire judges that have/like Miniature Horses, not Modern Shetland. Like an old timer once told me, you pay your dollar for one persons opinion. And that person will choose the horse that is appealing to them.