Measuring...Solutions???

[Whitestar]

I have been out of miniatures for 6+ years now, but I have been on the forum since it started, still read it daily & I have also managed a couple AMHR shows. The measuring topic has always been a hot one that comes up right after Nationals....every year. So, it seems it is a problem. What suggestions does anyone have to fix it? It is easy enought to complain about a problem & leave it to others to fix it. Why dont we offer suggestions when we make a complaint, one that may just be the solution to the problem? If the problem is the owner/trainer handling the horse while measuring, why isnt there a rule in place, that the owner/trainer whoever leads the horse to a point, then a person hired by AMHR or AMHA-maybe a licensed Judge, leads the horse to the measuring area within sight of the owner/trainer but they are not able to speak to the steward ( I have heard then suggest measurements or comment on what it should measure at) & this would take care of any verbal suggestions & of course take care of any stretching, pushing, pulling, poking prodding to get the horse to measure "in". It would be overseen by another judge or licensed steward, so you would have someone that is licensed holding & setting up the horse as it should be set in the ring to be judged, a steward measuring & another licensed person overseeing & offering their opinion. Then take the owner/trainer out of the picture as it seems like they & their handling & suggestions are the real problem & if they disagree to the measuring then you can even have a another licensed steward step in & do another measurement, but in the end they have to accept the measurement. It seems like we are not talking about being a 1/2 off, we are talking about 1-2" off. It will probably end up costing more in entries, all these people having to measure, but it seems like a working solution. Does anyone else have any suggestions that they can offer?

As for the threats, my suggestion is for anyone worried about getting a threat, to carry a recording device & try to get it on tape & then prosecute the lowlife to the fullest extend of the law with the registry standing following suite, banning them for life, & denying them to ever register a horse again. No amount of punishment is enough when it comes to something like this.

 

[nootka]

I like some of your ideas.

I wish it were possible to employ an outside company/entity to do the measuring, and those people would have nothing to do with the Miniature Horse world (though they WOULD be trained in proper procedure). Ideally the measuring process would be overseen by a second party/entity that would ensure that noone was asking for any special treatment or consideration, nor were there any threats being made.

Liz M.

 

[susanne]

This is the suggestion I made on kaykay's thread earlier today:

I realize that the stewards are terribly busy at any show, yet it seems that measuring needs to be done in a more public setting, with as many people as possible watching, rather than off in an out-of-the-way hallway like at the AMHR shows I've attended.

All the shows seem to offer coffee an donuts, so how about setting up chairs and conducting measurements where these goodies are served. Nobody may have time to sit and watch for any length of time, but everyone finds time to get free food and coffee!

I think any deceptive practices or intimidation of measuring stewards would greatly decrease if it had to be done in front of one's peers.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Most of the rules are already there, they are just not being enforced.

The very first, logical step would be to DEMAND that both registries enforce the rules they have in place.

If that does not sort it out then new rules would need to be put in.

You need to see the system you already have working properly before you consider adding new stuff.

If you cannot get the procedures you already have to work, what chance is there of getting new things to work??

 

[OhHorsePee]

I am very willing to stick my neck out over this! I believe Kay is also. Just two voices will not change the issues. That is why we are asking for people who saw what went on to get involved as well. We will be making our calls tomorrow and I will also put it in writing. There needs to be a group of people involved.

If there are people who want to get involved but are hesitant to place it on the forum please pm or email Kay or I. Those that have the show evaluation forms, please fill it out with your observations. If you do not have an evaluation form and your horse was at nationals I will make sure you get one. Keep a copy of your form. By keeping a copy if we hear a "no one has complained about it" then we all have copies.

I believe that if all measuring took place, as someone mentioned before, out in a widely viewable area wouldn't work unless we have people watching the whole time.

Next year I will protest if I see it happening. I just hope I have someone willing to help watch my horses. I hope there will be a group to walk with me when I protest. As I said before a group of people is what this is going to take. Hopefully this can be fixed or accounted for before Nationals of next year.

The sad part is we all know the names of the people doing the cheating. They know that people have to see the difference and don't care. They know that the possibility of retaliation is keeping us at bay. It's time to put a stop to all of this and send a message to AMHR to enforce it!

I also think that all AMHR employees wear name tags during these events. I wouldn't know them if they came up and slapped me. I think they should be present at the classes so they are made available for such an occasion.

The judges can not fix this problem. They have to trust that the stewards are doing the correct measurements. They just evaluate what horses are sent out onto the floor.

Fran

 

[Jill]

I really don't know what can be done to fix the problem. I do remember last year seeing that some horses showed in AMHR Over Division at Nationals then went on to show at the AMHA Worlds...

What I am thinking this morning is probably dumb, but what if the measuring process involved 3 officials, from AMHR or an outside organization. You bring your horse up to the measuring spot then he or she is lead away behind closed doors by one official. Someone else measures the horse according to standards behind closed doors. Then the horse is turned over to a third official to be lead out the "exit" and back to you with his measurement card in hand and there's no dickering on if he's smaller or taller than what the officials get.

Another thing is if there were consistency in how horses are measured at shows, it would be real nice to have the adult horses "officially" measured at the first show of the season and have that be where they show all year including the Nationals. I do not care for the fact that people can kind of pick and choose if he's over at this show and under at that show.

It really sounds like it's a big mess.

 

[OhHorsePee]

One problem with that Jill is if they know them then the measuring can still be fudged especially behind closed doors.

And if they are measured and stay in the same class all year there are growth spurts. Legacy has been measured time and time again. Has grown a lot. Maybe if they were measured at each show? But if they are going to fudge the numbers then it wont matter how many times they are measured.

Either make the stewards measure correctly or get new ones.

Fran

 

[Jill]

Well, my idea is that the person measuring is to see the horse but hopefully not the handler and hopefully not recognize "who" the horse is. The horse could be identified only by registration number.

?

It really is a mess and call me jaded, but I honestly expect to see the same thread again next year following either the Nationals or the Worlds.

 

[honeycomb max]

First - this is not directed to anybody.

But what if everybody was simply honest.

There is not a handler out there that does not know what their horse measures.

There is not a handler out there that does not know that their shetland is not a miniature.

And if AMHR would simply divide up their classes by height - that would stop the "taller" horses from competing against the "smaller" ones.

I understand that you want you horse to be the tallest one out there. But at some point in time you have to realize that they have gone over the A division and now are a B division horse.

Be honest to yourself and to the horse - what good is a win if it is won by "did you see the size of that horse"

 

[Jill]

AMHR does divide classes by height within the A and B divisions, every 2" is a bracket.

 

[honeycomb max]

Jill you are correct - you just beat me to correcting the statement.

Sorry

Millie

 

[Donna]

The only ONLY way to address all the concerns whether it be a Height issue, measuring issue, or whether even a horse meets the Standard of Perfection as it is written in the rule book, IS TO SHOW UP AT CONVENTION ! I cannot be there this year , but I have been there every year prior since I have been showing and if you cant go then people get a patition going that voices the concerns of its members and get it in the hands of each Director so that they can present it to the board. DO IT!

:

Talking about it on this forum is not going to get anything changed or done, you as a member have got to stand up and be heard, this is YOUR club!! Without you putting out the money, this club can not stand!

 

[Jill]

I agree that "protesting" online isn't worth a darn. That was one of my big concerns on the other thread.

However, it really stinks that in order to make a difference you must go to the convention. I have a business to run which is for sure more important to me than any AMHR issues. I'm also a registered principal of my broker / dealer. I cannot and will not take vacation time to go to a convention.

We are living in in 2006. It sure seems like there is some current technology in existence that would allow a person to make contributions without being there physically in person.

 

[OhHorsePee]

Donna, Maybe I am not thinking straight, but in order for it to go to this years convention shouldn't it had already been presented by now in a rule change? I am new so I am not certain but thought someone had said this to me before. Not sure though.

Fran

 

[Bess Kelly]

I'm with Jane -- there ARE rules, FOLLOW THEM !!!

I'm with Kaykay -- those who are cheating KNOW IT and are aggressively advising "so what, it's ME!!"

I'm with Honeycomb -- play fair.

It is not ONLY the fellow exhibitors who do not want, or will not, protest. It is often the measurer who does not want to say "NO!" No, you cannot stretch. No, that extra winter coat you didn't clip isn't mane hair. No, I will not say it's one height, not another. NO! YOUR HORSE DOES NOT MEASURE IN THAT CLASS.

Yes, it's been years since I was showing -- and it was the SAME then. Yes, I have been protested (at Nationals, no less...I was ok! And thanked the protestor for feeling I was such a threat to his horse...we had shown all year in same class) I have protested others. I have been the measurer in the past few years and I TOLD them no, no, NO -- your horse is no longer an A horse. The owner protested. I replied "Great - now this absolutely beautiful driving mare will be revoked from A and go into the R classes, as she should! Here are the papers......because without amputating 2" on each leg she will not get into A classes" I'm very forward

: But, the big name trainer on her lead made no comment, as that trainer knew the truth; unhappy but...... We were measuring with many watching, in very obvious area of the facility.

You know what happened? (OH, the show manager was scared, fine but scared) There were SEVERAL horses who were "voluntarily" moved into other height divisions. There were some who were scratched but, very few. Ultimately the show went on and was successful. Everyone lived through it and learned.

1. Follow the rules. Post them clearly on site.

2. Just say NO...the stewards need to be strong enough to do so, honestly.

Remember, if you pay the fee to protest and you are correct, you get your fees returned.

WE ARE ALL ADULTS. Let's play fair. Let's remind any who are not, that they need to, nicely.

 

[Jill]

I think the return of the fee is almost pointless. What's the fee? I'm thinking $50? Anyone showing horses and sweating $50 shouldn't be showing horses. It's the fear of revenge not the fear of loosing the fee from what I gather.

 

[Donna]

What I am trying to get across is that if a large number of members address this ongoing problems, or shall I say problems, IN FORCE, whether it be by showing up at convention or writing your director, and all the board members, whatever, just get mad and do something about it besides complaining here!

I am not saying we need to make rule changes, I am saying, whatever changes need to be made, needs to start with YOU! YOU people that are members or just own horses registered with AMHR are the backbone and the financial stability of this organization, YOU need to be HEARD!

A small group of people will not get anything changed today, tomorrow, or even next year. Rally now and you may get something done, strike while the iron is hot!

I have made a CHOICE, I will write my director, TODAY! I will send copies to all the Directors and the Board Members. I know that alone, I will not make a differance, BUT, if everyone that has concerns does the same, then maybe, just maybe, something might get done.

Dont bash me for wanting to get members to stand up for what they believe in, I have thousands of dollars invested in this club and if things do not start changing then myself and others will be forced to stop waisting our money!

This organization is HUGE and it is growing more rapidly everyday, if someone doesnt do something, it will crash. I personally do not want that to happen, But, I will not put money into a club that doesnt listen to its members.

 

[OhHorsePee]

Yep, you are right Jill! Kay and I heard the fear in peoples voices while they spoke to us. So sad!

I have my letter to AMHR started and will finish it after I speak to the head of stewards tomorrow.

Fran

Donna you are so right! We have to take a stand now and forever over this issue. So many people were cheated out on wins. NOT ME! LOL As I told someone else Legacy pinned his ears as the judges came around. No sour grapes over my self. Just the issue.

 

[liltnt]

I thought about this a bit last year and although I have never and probably never will go to nationals, ......

They could paint colored stripes around the arena, in the size that the classes should be. All of the horses are going to pass by these stripes. and if you cant see the color at the whithers they just cant be a winner regardless of what the stewart measured them at.

That way it is on the judges, No one would have to say anything to anyone, and the entries could still be accepted if a larger horse was in the class.

 

[bevann]

I really like the idea of an outside firm doing the measuring.someone who has no connection with anything equine and not to be known before the show and not to be the same person more than 1 year.They will have to be trained by someone in AMHR or AMHA for proper procedure.Several outside witnesses also.Isn't there some sort of laser device that could be used?Mark a spot on a wall-shoot the lazer to the spot over the back of the horse.If it clears it's ok-if it hits the horse-horse is over.there has got to be a way to stop the cheating.I was not there, but really think it needs to be addressed.This could be brought up I think, under new business at Convention, but no decision or change could be made now.Changes take time, but you have to start somewhere and now is the time.