Measurement issue with a purchase

[Genie]

A friend purchased a mature mare advertised as 27 inches. She requested that I get some feedback from others as she is not a forum member.

After a 1200.00 transport fee the mare arrived and had grown 2 1/2 inches on the trip.

What would be a fair outcome for both parties?

There was no contract so she is at the mercy of the seller’s integrity.

All other aspects of the mare are fine, just a height issue and if your market is “tiny” and that is your program, a mare at almost 30 inches is unsatisfactory.

For our future dealings we would be pleased if forum members would advise of their outline for a general purchase contract.

 

[Matt73]

If your friend didn't sign anything or measure the mare before she bought her, isn't she outta luck? Sounds like it to me. The mare could have been 42" and she'd still be out of luck. Maybe the seller measured wrong or isn't as stringent in her measuring.

 

[Jill]

That's a hard one and unfortunately, I think your friend is out of luck

When we sell a horse, I always sweat the measuring and I'll measure and remeasure. I'll get a range of heights that way and I always try to measure "tall" so no one is disappointed or upset. But it always makes me nervous. I think in the future, I'm actually going to have H video tape me setting the horse up and measuring so that the person can see what I get and how I got it.

Hopefully your friend can re-sell the horse or decides 30" isn't too tall. I'm sorry the mare didn't turn out to be what she thought she was signing up for.

 

[Genie]

Thank you Jill and MAtt.

The horse sale was all by e-mail and phone but my friend was assured that the height was 27 inches or she would not have sent her shipper.

In future I think I would have contract that says all claims stated by the seller must be factual, and documented, or a full refund of the purchase price and any shipping costs are to be reimbursed.

Again, many thanks.

 

[minie812]

I have always measured a little to the tall side & even add 1/2 inch. Seems lately alot of "OFF" measuring seems to be happening on sales even with the BIG name farms. (have people become so desperate to make a sale that they risk their own integrity?) Used to be you could do something on a handshake and YOUR word. Sad isn't it?

Hope your friend can come to an agreement with the seller.

 

[srpwildrose]

Been there, done that!

Bought a 27" stallion......NOT!!!! He got off transport measuring 29.

The height thing really is important in this business.

So come on people......lets be honest!

People talk.........your reputation is at stake.

 

[~Lisa~]

I am not sure there is anything anyone can do short of really knowing your seller and doing research.

Sadly people are very dishonest when it comes to money which is a sad thing. If height is very important to you and of course in this breed it is.. then really your only bet is to go measure the horse yourself or hope if the horse has a show record it has been measured several times and should come in around the same each time.

I have bought only one little one in the past few years 29.00 stallion from WildOak... he is adorable- better then I expected- will be gelded pretty soon here so Raven can show him as he clearly decided she was his person within moments of getting here

and measures 29.00 she was very honest and forthcoming with everything and has other A size horses I recommed her.

Back on point without a contract and offical measurement everyone is kinda out of luck. Maybe a video like Jill suggested of them measuring or having a steward measure or meeting them at a show. Buying online is always risky and a bit of research goes a long way.

 

[Minimor]

Definitely, when height is a major issue...if you're wanting well under 30" and not just an assurance that the horse does measure into AMHA papers, or if the horse is being sold as 33" and you want to know that it really is an A sized horse...get a height guarantee written into the contract. I would even go so far as to make the wording very explicit....horse is guaranteed to measure 27" at the last mane hair when horse is standing square, NOT stretched etc etc...and get a video of the measuring process, so that you can see exactly how the horse is standing and where the measurement was taken.

Some people seem to have no qualms about stretching the horse out & pushing down on the stick to get the small measurement they are wanting--I sometimes wonder if it's truly dishonesty, or if they honestly believe that is the acceptable way of measuring. If you can get the horse at 27" anyway at all, even if it takes the horse being stood stretched with the front legs spraddled, head raised and stick pushing down hard on the back, then 27" that horse is. Depending who the seller is, it's entirely possible that they've had that exact method demonstrated to them, and they believe that is the way it's done.

 

[wildoak]

Thanks Lisa

Misrepresenting a horse can only come back to bite the seller, just makes no sense to me to deliberately mislead anyone on height or anything else. Measuring can be somewhat subjective, as we all know.....horses measure differently if they are fat, thin, cold, frisky, you name it, which is what makes it so important to get several measurements with feet trimmed etc.

In this case, your buyer is probably out of luck unless the seller is concerned about having satisfied buyers.

Jan

 

[Frankie]

So many people measure in a different way, I'm not sure it is fair to say they were dishonest.

Also, I had a similar thing happen, only the horse shrunk 3 inches, I only do AMHR so the taller height was important to me.

Is the height of the horse in an email? If you are provided information and you have solid proof of it, emails are legal, then the horse was misrepresented and there is some things that can be done. You have proof of false information. Can't remember what that law is called, but its there. Not sure about state to state though, you could check in to it though.

I would find the email where it says 27 inches. Get a judge, stewart, trainer in your area to measure,,,send the findings on to the seller and request they stand behind their 27 inch statement.

Good luck!

 

[minie812]

Wow...was telling hubby about what happened and he sometimes comes up with some off the wall stuff but what if the seller is a Steward or Judge then what do you do about the measuring stuff?

 

[Marty]

Playing devil's advocate here, it is possible that this was not done on purpose. I know that I can measure the same horse three times in the same hour and come out different every time and I hate that when that happens. So to cover my bases I not only get an extra set of eyes, but I video the measuring, the bite, the horse's movement......not bowel.... but if I had to I'd do that too!

I don't think your friend has a leg to stand on Genie, but it would be worth it to her to call the seller and discuss it and see if they can reach an agreement satisfactory of both parties without an uproar.

 

[End Level Farms]

I have only purchased one horse who was actually represented correctly in height. (From Sharman Brown)

All the others have been incorrect.

Fortunately for me height has never been an issue so long as it measures UNDER 38" and has correct AMHR papers.

When I have horses for sale I try and take them to a show and have them measured by a steward. If I can not do that then I take a picture of the horse standing and the measuring stick. Or a video. I also will have 2 or more people who have no interest in the sale measure them. And give their contact information to the interested party.

 

[Knighthawke]

It sounds like what I am going though. I traded a lady for a mare and the mare was supposed to be smaller than her dam which we got. The dam is 36. When I got her I measured her and she is 37 and only a yearling. I like B's and as long as she doesnt go over the 38 I am fine but I did tell her that she was 37 inches an she was surprised. She is new to minis and said that she must have measured her wrong. But I am stuck with her. She is nice but I just hope she does not grow out of her papers.

Barb

 

[disneyhorse]

I think I've shown every horse I've owned... so when sold, I just tell buyers the height that is on the measurement cards. If you care enough about height, you can have the seller drag the horse to a show and be measured. It doesn't cost much if anything.

Andrea

 

[targetsmom]

Disneyhorse- Interesting that you mentioned taking the horse to a show to be measured, because my experience with a horse changing 2 inches almost overnight was taking him to two shows, a month apart. He was a yearling and measured 29 inches at the first show and 27 inches at the second one. So at a time when he should have been growing, he SHRANK 2 inches.

Kinda makes me wonder how AMHA can insist it is a height registry when the measured height can vary so much.....

 

[pinck43]

When selling an amha horse, doesn't it state on the measurement, transfer papers that the buyer be present at the time of measuring? The buyer has to sign that paper. So if the buyer isn't present and doesn't sign the paper, maybe they do have a point.

 

[Little Wolf Ranch]

I have been in this situation too ---- purchased a 2 y/o stallion who was supposed to be 31.5" and when we got there and measured he was 33.5". . . . . .traveled a LONG way and since I planned on hardshipping him to AMHR anyways, he was nicely conformed, and could still be safely bred to my mares - we decided to still agree on the sale. 

Maybe 30" isnt a bad height afterall and the mares other qualities will shine through. 

 

[HGFarm]

Well, I would have to say that with purchasing horses, I have been lucky or dealt with honest people, as MOST of them were exactly as they were represented, or even a bit smaller. However, I have known many that were not so lucky.

Yes, if false information is in email or written anywhere, then I would ask the seller to make it right. I have had different measurements come up on horses that varied a little bit from one to the next, but never 2 or 3 inches or more!!! And the shippers must do something to them in transport to have so many grow in 2 days time frame by that much!!

Yes, word gets around and your reputation is pretty much what you have to rely on. I dont care how nice someone's horses are, if they are not honest, people will shop elsewhere!

 

[dreaminmini]

Has she actually talked to the seller? Maybe if she talks to her and gives her a chance to make things right she will. Most reputable breeders will even if they are legally not obligated to so that they continue to have a good name and have satisfied customers. But I guess if thre is nothing in writing there is nothing that can actually be done. Chalk it up to a learning experience.