l need driving help

[Relic]

This is him from this earlier this week and l thought he looked and did really good but l guess not. Just what exactly do you see or how can you tell when a horse is driving from the rear??? Beats me but l was told my fave guy is not a driving horse ahhhgeee seems he isn't driving of the rear... he isn't using his rear?? We worked hard training and putting miles on him over the winter he listens very well is totally safe does all his gaits but is a slow mover nothing seems to set him on fire. He's be in country pleasure but now that we've gotten an outside opinion and were told this is not the sort of horse who would make it in a class...HELP l WANT TO KNOW WHY l CAN'T SEE THIS what does it look like and HOW can we help him improve so he drives from the rear????

 

[Keri]

He looks good to me from the pic, but its hard to judge without several pics or a video. Just remember, one person's opinion is one person's opinion. So keep working hard. If you have a rougher competition up where you're at, you may drop him down until he can get more collection and leg lift.

 

[Minimor]

He is overbent, and definitely not driving off his rear end--you want to see him striding under and tracking up with his hind feet.

He will use himself better if you stop making him overbend--a horse that is overbent is on his forehand.

 

[JourneysEnd]

He is overbent, and definitely not driving off his rear end--you want to see him striding under and tracking up with his hind feet.

He will use himself better if you stop making him overbend--a horse that is overbent is on his forehand.

Well said. The horse needs to learn self carriage.

There's a great book by Heike Bean "Carriage Driving" that will help you understand what to do next far better than I can explain it.

He just needs proper training, don't give up on him.

Good luck !

 

[Kendra]

He looks so handsome!!

I think he's doing just fine for his first year in harness, he'll work more off his hind end as he gets more muscle and more miles on him.

Too bad you guys weren't coming to the clinic this weekend, you could ask your questions of an expert! Kathleen had me doing a lot of bending exercises with Hawk, he really got a lot "lighter", and I'm pretty pleased with how he's starting to track up and work forward underneath himself.

That Heike Bean book IS really good ... I've been reading and re-reading since I got it at Christmastime!

Who would tell you he isn't going to make a driving horse?! Someone who's scared to show against him?

 

[susanne]

I'm still new at driving, but what I see is a horse that is off to a great start and, like EVERY driving horse, still needs work to perfect his "craft."

Mingus started out with a pretty trot, but little impulsion. As per Heike Bean's instructions, I put him in sliding side reins. This is not a fixed rein or typical side rein, but an appliance that encourages the horse to find his/her own balance. The difference in Mingus is remarkable...he still has a long way to go, but hitched or unhitched he is driving from behind and much lighter on the forehand.

It really irks me to hear comments like you received. We're all on the road to driving excellence, and while some may be further along the way and some may eventually go further, everyone has to start at the beginning and forge ahead from there.

Good luck, have fun, and keep us posted on your progress.

 

[Keri]

Yep, working them in side reins in a round corral will teach them head collection and to push with the hind end. Its amazing to watch once they figure to push with their hind end.

 

[Magic]

Well, *I* think he looks beautiful, and with some help and work and practice, you may just be BEATING the person who told you that he'd "never make a driving horse"!

 

[dreaminmini]

I'm new to driving so not much of an expert, but you guys make a pretty picture.

So maybe he isn't driving from his rear, you can work on that, but he is well behaved, isn't spooky and you are having fun. Don't let someones sour grapes spoil your enjoyment. You should be proud of what you have acheived with him so far.

Keep us posted!

 

[Kim]

Don't give up - he will be great! In that photo he does look heavy on the front end, but keep in mind that you can't really tell a lot from only one photo, as it's taken at one split-second in time. (It would help if you had a video of him...)

The book mentioned above IS great. I lost or misplaced my copy 3 or 4 years ago, and have given up looking for it so am going to order another. It's a good read.

In the photo he looks to be heavy on the front end and overbent so he is trailing out behind. If this is how he moves all the time it may be because you have been trying for a headset before he is truly comfortable moving forward and using his back end. Headset should always be the last step in developing a driving horse. You might want to try giving up the focus on his headset for now and go back to working on forward movement and engagement and once he is moving from behind well, move on to lateral movement, then the final step is pulling it all together with a pretty headset. I can't tell from the photo if you've got a check on him, but if so, you could try loosening it or removing it - this will help him learn to push forward (and later up) from behind rather than his head and neck being pulled up artificially by the check, as that will only make him more hollow.

It takes many years for a horse to learn true collection, so really, he's still a beginner - and doing quite well, indeed. He looks like he's on his way to becoming a very elegant country horse. I would certainly show him this year and in time he will develop his frame and become lighter on the front end.

I probably did not explain my thoughts very well, but get the book...it is really good!

 

[Relic]

Thanks l was so disappointed to hear he wasn't driving from the rear

l'll have to get after her to get back to the beginning with him. l called the tack shops in my area about the book but none carried it...where did you guys get yours from...

 

[Kendra]

I got mine at chapters.ca

 

[Matt73]

I think you both look great! Not experienced at driving AT ALL. But you both make a really pretty picture

 

[mondak]

Ok here is my two cents. My driving gelding (as well as many many others) has a hard time sitting and driving from his rear. This is not a falt in any way shape or form. A horse is naturally on his forehand with 60% of his weight carried on his two front legs and 40% on his hind. It is our job as riders and drivers to help them shift there weight back. In dressage, which is what driving is mind you, a training level horse is expected to be on his forehand, this is why they are in a lower frame. As you move through the levels the horse begins to shift his weight farther back. In fact it is not until the FEI levels that a horse is expected to be fully driving from his rear...this is done through years and years of training and conditioning and there are very very few horses that can accomplish it. Now back to driving. Your horse is heavy, conformationally on his forehand, which makes the task of shifting his weight back all the more difficult for both him and you. He is overbent in this picture, which is an evasion of his to avoid sitting on his hind end. This is his way of telling you it is hard, and if he is a lazy horse this evasion will be hard (not impossible) to break. I would put him on the lunge in side reins and really ask him to start pushing from the rear by keeping the reins loose and tapping his hocks with the whip to encourage him to swing at his SI joint in his back. He will only be able to do a few steps at first but when he does sit paise the living heck out of him. In the cart again I would keep his reins loose and forget about headset. He will be nosed out, but that is fine remembering that your are really training a dressage horse and driving him back to front will set his head. By focusing only on getting him on the vertical you will drive backwards or from front to back. He has been in cart enough to start transitions both within the gait and between gaits. My warm-up with my gelding consists of simple transitions from walk to trot as well as halt trot and walk lenghtened trot trans. To get him listening to you and woken up try walking three steps then trot five steps then walk three steps. Repeat this until when you ask for the trot his pushes into it and it is exhurberent and lively. Along with the carrage driving book (which will have alot of what I just said in it) try getting some dressage books and long lining books. Hope this Helps!!!!

Courtney

P.S. Believe me you are fine!!!

 

[COTTONGRASSFARMS]

Ok here is my two cents. My driving gelding (as well as many many others) has a hard time sitting and driving from his rear. This is not a falt in any way shape or form. A horse is naturally on his forehand with 60% of his weight carried on his two front legs and 40% on his hind. It is our job as riders and drivers to help them shift there weight back. In dressage, which is what driving is mind you, a training level horse is expected to be on his forehand, this is why they are in a lower frame. As you move through the levels the horse begins to shift his weight farther back. In fact it is not until the FEI levels that a horse is expected to be fully driving from his rear...this is done through years and years of training and conditioning and there are very very few horses that can accomplish it. Now back to driving. Your horse is heavy, conformationally on his forehand, which makes the task of shifting his weight back all the more difficult for both him and you. He is overbent in this picture, which is an evasion of his to avoid sitting on his hind end. This is his way of telling you it is hard, and if he is a lazy horse this evasion will be hard (not impossible) to break. I would put him on the lunge in side reins and really ask him to start pushing from the rear by keeping the reins loose and tapping his hocks with the whip to encourage him to swing at his SI joint in his back. He will only be able to do a few steps at first but when he does sit paise the living heck out of him. In the cart again I would keep his reins loose and forget about headset. He will be nosed out, but that is fine remembering that your are really training a dressage horse and driving him back to front will set his head. By focusing only on getting him on the vertical you will drive backwards or from front to back. He has been in cart enough to start transitions both within the gait and between gaits. My warm-up with my gelding consists of simple transitions from walk to trot as well as halt trot and walk lenghtened trot trans. To get him listening to you and woken up try walking three steps then trot five steps then walk three steps. Repeat this until when you ask for the trot his pushes into it and it is exhurberent and lively. Along with the carrage driving book (which will have alot of what I just said in it) try getting some dressage books and long lining books. Hope this Helps!!!!

Courtney

P.S. Believe me you are fine!!!

\



Courtney,

Does developing "long and low" help with driving from the rear?

Kim

 

[mondak]

Long and low has been a controversial training method in the dressage world just as hyperflexion or rolkur. For some horses I would say def. long and low helps connect them and get them driving from back to front. These horses however, are the ones that get blocked or that they do not stretch there toplines. A horse who is a nervous or high strung horse tends to get blocked in there wither area which results in a very upright and curled neck and a hollow back. These horses tend to respond well with the long and low method of training as it both calms them and gets the tension out of their neck and back muscles. In a lazy horse you run into the fine line of long and low and encouraging travel on the forehand rather than encouraging implusion. This is where the controversy comes in. Some trainers believe that by teaching a young horse long and low you encourage travel on the forehand. They then become heavy in the hands when you go to pick them up because of this. A horse that is traveling "round" or stretching over his back and rounding into the saddle will only have one to two pounds of pressure in each rein (given that he is not crooked).

So there is a fine line between using this training technique for good or evil I guess you would say. While it is natural for a horse to travel on the forehand it is not what we want as drivers as the end result, therefore you use the positive reinforcement method by ignoring forehand movement and praising the daylights out of impulsion and lightness of the front end. As long as the horse is not one that easy find evasions (such as my horse, LOL) I would say yes it does have its benefits if used correctly.

Happy Driving!!!

Courtney

 

[COTTONGRASSFARMS]

Long and low has been a controversial training method in the dressage world just as hyperflexion or rolkur. For some horses I would say def. long and low helps connect them and get them driving from back to front. These horses however, are the ones that get blocked or that they do not stretch there toplines. A horse who is a nervous or high strung horse tends to get blocked in there wither area which results in a very upright and curled neck and a hollow back. These horses tend to respond well with the long and low method of training as it both calms them and gets the tension out of their neck and back muscles. In a lazy horse you run into the fine line of long and low and encouraging travel on the forehand rather than encouraging implusion. This is where the controversy comes in. Some trainers believe that by teaching a young horse long and low you encourage travel on the forehand. They then become heavy in the hands when you go to pick them up because of this. A horse that is traveling "round" or stretching over his back and rounding into the saddle will only have one to two pounds of pressure in each rein (given that he is not crooked).

So there is a fine line between using this training technique for good or evil I guess you would say. While it is natural for a horse to travel on the forehand it is not what we want as drivers as the end result, therefore you use the positive reinforcement method by ignoring forehand movement and praising the daylights out of impulsion and lightness of the front end. As long as the horse is not one that easy find evasions (such as my horse, LOL) I would say yes it does have its benefits if used correctly.

Happy Driving!!!

Courtney

Thank you. I was of the same opinion myself. My driving pony can be encouraged with long and low ( though not too low) as it really rounds him and lightens him, my riding mare on the other hand is the opposite and it only make her heavier or evasive. Thanks again.

kim

 

[Sassy]

wow, your boy looks really good!! if you stick with him and work him often to get more muscle in his hindquarters. When he gets more muscle he should be able to go longer and push foward. When he starts to "push" from the rear it will bring his head up and give him a little more movment. You have gotten past the hard part of training him, and he will never forget it. Just condition him and he will go far in the show ring!! He has a very nice head set though!!

 

[Jetiki]

as someone who is currently correcting an overflexed horse I can tell you it will get better, in my case I wanted to hold her too much, with help I am now learning to let her go. My mare has been known to be very strong, not uncontrollable but she likes to go, and I felt I had to constantly hold her back. With help I am teaching her to relax and listen and not hold so tight to her face. what is helping us, is Transitions, Transitions, transitions and more transitions and then more transitions. (in dressage arena) Walk 5 steps, trot 5 steps, walk 5 steps trot 5 steps, all the way around the arena, then we progressed to trotting the sides and walking the corners, then trotting figures 8's with walking in the middle. We are up to trotting figure 8's but sometimes making a full 8 and sometimes continuing the circle we were on, its working. At first I was thinking how's this going to work, but it really has and we have come a long way. We still have work to do, but we've come a good long way in a short time with lessons once a month for about 4 months. Its boring, but its what needed to be done.

Karen

 

[Ouburgia]

I think youre on the good way, but still a driving horse should move (IMO) from the hind quarters. He is now diving a bit on the front and I miss movement from the back.

You might be helped by lunging him double or with a "passoa helping rein"

Picture:

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0VQDpAqIZQT0...472330744722867

You can use them different ways, low, middle and High (don't know if this is something tipical european). It can really help to make youre horse "looser" in its body.

Also with single lunging: Lung him over poles which are in time about 10 cm from the ground.

Good luck!