Just some thoughts on type, show quality etc

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I breed appaloosa minis and find their traits attractive. I've been breeding for 14 years and have culled along the way. I line breed and it's been very successful. The group I have now (9) are pretty nice (if I do say so myself- LOL!) and of minimal faults. Yes, there are things that I could change (fuller manes/tails, smaller or larger overall size ect but those can fall under personal opinion) but as long as I make the right choices in breeding crosses I've been very successful at producing babies that I want. I don't show anymore but the babies I have sold to others that showed I am proud to say are doing or have done extremely well with Ch. and All stars. That having been said just as you can get an incorrect impression from photos because you've caught that horse at one moment in time from only a few angles. Same goes with real showing- you caught your horse on a particular day with particular development of structure and muscle at that day, you've got a judge with specific personal opinions that are added to the judging guidlines that will always affect opinions on placings.

I'm pretty proud of my little group and to me (and I stress TO ME) I do have some horses I would not change at all because they are exactly what I'm breeding for. Those are few are far between but the others are pretty close too.

All horses, no matter what they look like can do something in life that we can enjoy be it breeding, show, driving, pet, companion, teacher or whatever. Different jobs take different conformational types. As long as we as mini breeders are not specialized in just halter or just one job we'll always have different traits and some with like certain traits and some will not.
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No flames please- Just me two cents
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Tammie
 
I can say with high confidence that none of our mini's are show quality. However I do think that some of our horses are beautiful horses... and others... not so much at all.
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There are a variety of different "markets".... and a variety of preferences in "type" refined/stockier, etc.

Our focus is on high-quality companion and family horses. Looks & Confirmation are important. But even more important for us is personality. That said, we do consider pedigree in our program. ( We have a stallion who’s grand-sire is Boones Little Buckeroo. ) And, we also select each mare/stallion match… based on our best evaluation. But it really all comes down to what my husband & I like.

Below is our one & only foal we have this year. We are giving this darling little guy to a dynamite girl who is dependant on a wheelchair.

He is Not "show-quality" (I know.) But, she has dreams of showing him, and I do think he will be quite good-looking. So if she does.... she just may do well in a local show. But show or no-show... win or no-win..... one thing is for sure..... she will love that little guy to death. And, he will help make her life all the richer. (Just like the mini’s of Everyone here..... enrich all of our lives
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I believe many of us have different objectives..... but that all of us strive to breed beautiful & sound mini's in the continued best interest of the mini breed.

-Becky

P.S. Here is our little guy.

I just can't help myself....
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I'm really curious to know who it is you think thinks they have perfect horses? I know I'd love to check out their herd and maybe even their sales list.

There are no perfect horses. If I had a magic wand, there are things I'd fix on every single one of mine from my grade gelding on up to the ones who have National wins.

However, some horses are more perfect than others. When someone asks what the forum thinks of a horse's conformation, I think to comment and not be honest is a disservice to that poster and to the 100's of readers who are trying to learn.

That said, I never saw a horse that had nothing nice to comment about. I think many / most of us do not just rattle off this that and the other that is "not good" about the horse, but point out both the possitive and the negative.

When somebody asks what we think of the conformation, of the horse as a show prospect, or as a breeding animal, if I reply, I am honest. It's really because I was able to learn from some people who were honest with me that I built a herd that, if nothing else, is a lot nicer than it was 5 years ago.
 
I'm really curious to know who it is you think thinks they have perfect horses? I know I'd love to check out their herd and maybe even their sales list.

There are no perfect horses. If I had a magic wand, there are things I'd fix on every single one of mine from my grade gelding on up to the ones who have National wins.

However, some horses are more perfect than others. When someone asks what the forum thinks of a horse's conformation, I think to comment and not be honest is a disservice to that poster and to the 100's of readers who are trying to learn.

That said, I never saw a horse that had nothing nice to comment about. I think many / most of us do not just rattle off this that and the other that is "not good" about the horse, but point out both the possitive and the negative.

When somebody asks what we think of the conformation, of the horse as a show prospect, or as a breeding animal, if I reply, I am honest. It's really because I was able to learn from some people who were honest with me that I built a herd that, if nothing else, is a lot nicer than it was 5 years ago.
I agree 100% don't put them up for evaluation if you don't really want to know an honest evaluation is how we all learn and for someone to flower the picture will only confuse the ones on here that are trying to learn. Also make sure to use good angled pictures don't expect anyone to evaluate them from poor pictures. Some things are obvious even to an untrained eye so if you don't want to have neg coments on your horse then don't post pictures of the ones that have obvious flaws unless you want them pointed out for a learning process for others .
 
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It really isn't that anyone has perfect horses but I think more in how some people can come across when they are doing a critique. I am not going to name names but I do read and I do consider what is written by others. Perhaps it is the attittude some take that no one should be breeding anyhting less than perfect but still have their own that are less than perfect. Maybe a persona???? It's "I done it this way and look what I have and doing it right ......." Now this is strictly my opinion from reading so don't come down on me. I see how some one may be giving advice because they don't want someone else to make the same mistakes they did but others who really haven't had that much experience may give the imprssion they know it all and they are doing it all the right way while someone else is not. I guess the point is we all learn one way or another and one that speaks as if they are an expert has no doubt made their share of mistakes also ...... Mary

I'm really curious to know who it is you think thinks they have perfect horses? I know I'd love to check out their herd and maybe even their sales list.

There are no perfect horses. If I had a magic wand, there are things I'd fix on every single one of mine from my grade gelding on up to the ones who have National wins.

However, some horses are more perfect than others. When someone asks what the forum thinks of a horse's conformation, I think to comment and not be honest is a disservice to that poster and to the 100's of readers who are trying to learn.

That said, I never saw a horse that had nothing nice to comment about. I think many / most of us do not just rattle off this that and the other that is "not good" about the horse, but point out both the possitive and the negative.

When somebody asks what we think of the conformation, of the horse as a show prospect, or as a breeding animal, if I reply, I am honest. It's really because I was able to learn from some people who were honest with me that I built a herd that, if nothing else, is a lot nicer than it was 5 years ago.
 
I think there are many here who are learning about conformation just as all the ""Experts"did one horse at a time one area of the horse at a time. As for the dont breed dont breed mentality I would like to know if the Experts have always bred National Champions or if that took many years of culling and replacing and making wiser decisions. Some have been lucky enough to live in an area where there are many mentors to help. When we started 7 years ago there were very few minis in the whole state and no one to mentor us. We have learned and changed what we do accordingly but it didnt happen overnight and we still arent there. We bred no horses for this year and only have 3 bred for next year and one of those we bought in foal another is bred to our BTU grandson so we have high hopes for next year but it hasnt happened overnight and it is still in the culling upgrading stages. The only thing I am really sure of is that my horses are horses I like wether they win ribbons or not. I still bring them home and love them.
 
Tammie---I meant no offense about appies. I love them. But I will honestly say my mare has an big head and when the appy mottling and the snowflakes it does look a little odd. The snow flake pattern kinda washed out her pinto color so its just a strange combo.

I do agree if you put your horse up for critique you better be prepared to hear all kinds of opinions. I have also critiqued my own many many times especially on the youth forum when we do conformation over there. Im very passionate about conformation (probably why i wrote a book on it LOL) But I am very reluctant to critique anyone elses horse and stopped doing it years ago.

A few weeks ago I did jump in on one and agreed with other posters that a mare was over at the knee. It VERY much looked like she was from the pictures. Then the poster privately emailed me more pictures and the mare was not at all over at the knee. I was really shocked as I was so certain she was. I apologized and learned my lesson again that a poorly taken picture can make a horse look horrible. There is a reason why famous stallions and Mares are not allowed to be photographed and posted on the forum etc. Smart business in my opinion.

But my main point was maybe we all shouldnt be so quick to jump on other people and that all horses have faults. I totally agree with Mary that sometimes its not what you say but how you say it. And just because a horse hasnt won a championship or just because its an older horse doesnt mean it has nothing to contribute to the breeding pool.

And lastly something that drives me nuts. Conformaton and Type are TWO TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. A horse can have excellent conformation and be quarter horse type. I think these two issues get confused a lot when people are doing critiques.
 
Kay- you are so right and it is a pet peeve of mine. I rarely post, but this is one of those that fire me up.

Conformation and Type is not the same. Period.

Conformation, IMO, must come first, then type. I hear often at non-sanctioned shows, when they don't like the placings in the mini classes " well the judge isn't a mini judge" . What the heck is that supposed to mean, he is a licensed judge? I always have to laugh and say to myself..so what exactly does a mini judge look at differently than a full size judge. If I am wrong ,please correct me, but I could have sworn that conformation is judged first and then if two are alike they go to height and type. I do personally like the quarter type, but they still should have all the proper angles in hip, legs, shoulder, etc. Type is just type, I know mine are not National caliber halter horses because of the type I like. but that does not bother me. They are very useful in the performance arena which is what I prefer.

And as for the critiques, I think the problem is they don't stop at the critiquing of the horse, some continue on and tell you what they think you should do with them even when not asked...which many times is Don't breed them or geld immediately.

But anytime someone wants to drop off one of those perfect horses at my place, please feel free. But then again I am waiting for a blue unicorn as well. LOL
 
That is one of the thing's I keep saying.. Type and conformation is not the same thing! Nice to know others think the same.

As for having perfect horse's... and all I can really talk about is mine... are mine perfect?

No... I know every fault they have, is I just don't talk about it.

But I also know Maggie can produce better than herself, because I was very careful in choosing the right stallion for her.

If one is going to breed...even one with minor faults..it is important to find that mare's match...one that will give a chance with the foal to be improved upon.

For critique from Photo... I do not like doing it. There is no way to see the whole horse as a package..temperament and conformation. There are times when I see a horse in the photo and go..yuk..but in person the horse is outstanding.... can be strange. Anyway.. am talking about a horse with a good enough conformation to start out with.

Then what do you say when you see a horse with some major..and I mean major faults...what does one say without coming across rudely?
 
Everytime someone talks about conformation.

I go check out their mare page
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There is no perfect horse. We can only try to correct their faults.
 
I agree that conformation and type are of course different however.. conformation is not the same all across the board. Some things are the same but others are not depending on the breed and what the horse is used for so yes I think it is a fair statement that just cause someone is a judge they may not be able to judge all horses equally.

For example the hind end of a QH will look different then the hind end of a Arabian it is really IMO more then type when you consider the roundness of the croup or lack there of and WHY it is that way in a particular breed -meaning what the breed is used for. Or a neck tie in ect.. so while some of it is type again without knowing what the horse is used for and what is accepted in the breed it can be hard -

in other breeds like gaited horses there hind end is just different so what might be a conformation flaw in one breed is needed for the form to function in another breed and therefore if being judged by someone educated in that breed it wouldnt be counted against them

so I guess what I am trying to say is that in many ways "type" does matter when considering conformation cause it will give you an idea if that horse is truly suited for what it was bred for.

I realize in minis it is a bit different due to there being less options for what they actually do with the conformation they have
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Then what do you say when you see a horse with some major..and I mean major faults...what does one say without coming across rudely?
It's simple. If you want to share a pic of your special horse then post it in the photo forum. If you want a critique...post it here. If you feel uncomfortable giving an honest opinion when asked then don't reply if you feel there are obvious faults. If I came on asking I'd rather get one honest "your horse is butt ugly because...." than a million fake "oh she's so cutesie".

I don't ask for critiques myself for two reasons 1) because I''ve had horses for 44 years of my life and know what's good and not so good conformation and 2) because I'm passionate about the Celtic/Iberian breeds and love that in miniature so you won't find a flat croup, high tail set or pencil thin swan neck on any of my horses.
 
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And I think this makes an excellent point! "I'm passionate about the Celtic/Iberian breeds and love that in miniature so you won't find a flat croup, high tail set or pencil thin swan neck on any of my horses." When some are ctitiquing they will point out that the tail is either too high set or too low set, or the croup is too rounded or not round enough etc. BUT are they taking into consideration the "TYPE" of horse that particular person is breeding for or likes? In miniatures horse I have often thought we need to study each breed and know waht is correct and isn't correct for each if we are going to be breeding and want a certain type.....otherwise we look at the mini standard and try to achieve that . Mary

Then what do you say when you see a horse with some major..and I mean major faults...what does one say without coming across rudely?
It's simple. If you want to share a pic of your special horse then post it in the photo forum. If you want a critique...post it here. If you feel uncomfortable giving an honest opinion when asked then don't reply if you feel there are obvious faults. If I came on asking I'd rather get one honest "your horse is butt ugly because...." than a million fake "oh she's so cutesie".

I don't ask for critiques myself for two reasons 1) because I''ve had horses for 44 years of my life and know what's good and not so good conformation and 2) because I'm passionate about the Celtic/Iberian breeds and love that in miniature so you won't find a flat croup, high tail set or pencil thin swan neck on any of my horses.
 
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IMHO:

I believe that a good horse is in the mind of the buyer. We all want different things and that is why we have so many to choose from. I come from a "big" horse farm and if I wanted to spend all that money on a famous well known trainer that no matter what I took to him, since he would be so well known that my horse would win everything it was shown in, I wouldnt do it. The ugly horse can win with a trainer, I have seen it happen. If you dont have a name you rarely place in the big shows. When I buy, I look for something that will cross well with either of my two stallions. They both have different qualities. I also will look at a pedigree but then again I dont ride a pedigree nor do I ride these 2 or more national and world champions. I am just me and I like what I like.

Every horse has their faults, mine included. Breed to improve each others faults and you are in the right direction.
 
A little off topic but ..

How is that book on Miniature Horse Conformation coming along for small horse press?
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What I would love to see is a thread on well conformed horses with real life examples. I often hear, "I breed well conformed horses but rarely see examples although one notable is Lyn who has posted pics and done a wonderful service for this forum by critiquing her own.

What are people really looking for, I often wonder? Minis have no clearly defined "use" other than driving, halter and breeding it seems. I would want different things in each, for example I've seen few brood mares that would win a halter class in breeding condition, and halter horses that don't have the movement of an excellent driving horse. It seems to be the rare one that can crossover.

ETA: Ooops! Now this one was not quite finished but somehow it posted all by itself. Please see the remainder below.
 
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Shirley, that would be good but we are still going to see differences of opinions as to correct conformation for the reason mentioned....conformation can be different for differnent type of horses. That is what makes it difficult for newbies.....correctness is going to be "type" and we have different types of minis so I would think a thread for correct conformation for types of minis would be interesting. Then we are going to probably see that there is going to be variences in opinions as to what is correct for a certain type! That is why I say it seems necessary to study different types of horses to know what is correct for each type....be it Quarter horse, Morgan, Arabian etc. Just a thought, mary

"quote name='TriggynBluenDaisy Too' date='Oct 17 2007, 06:37 PM' post='901403']

What I would love to see is a thread on well conformed horses with real life examples. I often hear, "I breed well conformed horses but rarely see examples although one notable is Lyn who has posted pics and done a wonderful service for this forum by critiquing her own.

What are people really looking for, I often wonder? Minis have no clearly defined "use" other than driving, halter and breeding it seems. I would want different things in each, for example I've seen few brood mares that would win a halter class in breeding condition, and halter horses that don't have the movement of an excellent driving horse. It seems to be the rare one that can crossover.
 
What I would love to see is a thread on what others think are well conformed horses with real life examples. I often hear, "I breed well conformed horses but rarely see examples although one notable exception is Lyn who has often posted pics and done a wonderful service for this forum by critiquing her own.

What are people really looking for, I often wonder? Minis seem to have no clearly defined "use" other than driving, halter and breeding. I would tend want different things in each. For example I've seen few brood mares that would win a halter class in breeding condition, and halter horses that don't have the movement of an excellent driving horse, etc. It seems to be the rare one that can truly crossover and that is not in miniatures alone, many big horse breeds face the same issues.

About the only thing the "breed" for the most part has been able to agree on is the height requirements for each division. Is that to be the fate of the miniature horse, nothing but a height registry? It becomes little more than breeding for some other unimportant attribute, like blue eye or a specific coat color but does nothing to improve how the horse is put together. I also wonder how many breeders have read or know the standard of perfection and make it the focus in their programs. I don't mean that as an insult but just an observation and query.

I recall reading many years ago about the demographics of the average mini owner being a middle aged woman with no real prior horse experience but retaining a love of horses from their youth. Minis being small and easier to handle helped them finally realize that dream. So it follows in my mind, that the expertise about what really constitutes betterment of the breed may be lacking in most breeding programs at least at the outset.

Now this is a radical concept I'm sure few would agree with here I think but one of the most responsible breeders I've ever met in any species would never consider producing a litter of pups unless the parents were bonafide champions at the highest level. She is breeding dogs that not only reach her standards but those of her peers as well. It's not that she couldn't put two nicely conformed dogs together and not get quality pups but that is not her goal. Her sole goal is for betterment of the terrier breed not to pump out pups to make her living from. Not every pup she produces is perfect so she will only give papers when the dog has either reached it's championship title edited to add, she offers to show the dog to it's highest level under her kennel and offered this with my Dillon. I wasn't interested in a show dog so he got neutered but he could have had his chance at becoming a stud dog had he earned his title or proof of sterization has taken place so you will never see her kennel name on an AKC registered dog whose parents are not champions. To me this is the highest level of responsible breeding and if more thought along those lines I doubt we would have the glut of every species you can name.
 
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I may annoy a few people with this but here goes. It does not matter what species is being shown this same discussion goes round and round. Competition does this. Each wants to be the winner, the best, and each person believes firmly that they have the best, or are working toward the best.

The people who are successful buy and breed the best they can, then present them the best they can. They pay attention, they watch and they learn. They then try to do better. The key is being open to knowing no matter how much you know, no matter how great yours is, there is always something to learn and there is always an improvement to be made.

When striving for an unattainable goal this is the only way to succeed. The art of breeding is the attempt to create perfection therefore an unattainable goal, it is the challenge that is supposed to be gratifying.

I have yet to meet anyone who said "I am going to buy the worst horses I can find and produce losers"
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I understand different types have some bit of different conformation, however the basic angles should still exist. For example, there should be a certain angle at the shoulder that should also match the pasterns. Also, the legs should be straight not over at the knee or behind, hock action should be snappy, and the big one for me, is there must be a strong hip. As someone previously mentioned, the standard of perfection was written for a reason. Yes, there is some interpretation that can be done, but the basics are the basics and must be there no matter what type the horse is and should be evaluated first. I believe there is nothing wrong with breeding for a performance horse as opposed to a halter horse, as long as you strive for the best. You still need the proper angles for the movement that is needed, without the perfect chiseled head and absolute refinement. Now if you can do both, more power to you. Look at the quarter horse world, a high end cutting horse will rarely place in the halter ring and IMO what is so wrong with that, as they both have a purpose and a very large market.
 

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