billiethekid40
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I so agree with this. :aktion033:
Just some of my own thoughts and feelings
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I so agree with this. :aktion033:
disneyhorse
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Exactly, Warpony. There were two sorrel mini mules that I saw go through an auction here for $40 a piece. Not really attractive things, but they were still loving little animals that would make a good pet for someone who just wanted pets. I don't understand breeding "just because we love them and they are so cute and sweet."
Even those $40,000 show horses are cute and sweet when they are hanging out.
Andrea
Even those $40,000 show horses are cute and sweet when they are hanging out.
Andrea
CRERS
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I agree as well - there are so many Miniatures going through the auctions lately. We were at a sale last fall and the Miniature colts couldn't be given away, even those that were registered. We took a coming 2 Y/O colt, the skinniest and sadest of the bunch, and that is saying a lot because most of those poor things looked like they'd been through it and back again, but this little guy looked like he had completely given up on life. It was honestly one of the most heartbreaking sales I've ever been to. I am very happy to say that our little is in a wonderful home now where he's doted on daily, but those homes seem to be far and few between for the influx of horses going through sales.
There is a broker close to us that has a bunch of Miniatures - they get shuffled from sale to sale, broker to broker, contracting strangles & injuries during their sad journeys. Another rescue recently saved a Mini that was in a holding pen with large horses who were beating the life out of him.......doesn't get much more depressing than that. Thankfully someone was there to save his life, but that doesn't happen more than it does.
At the sale we went to last weekend, there was an absolutely ADORABLE silver dapple miniature gelding who looked like he had a heart of gold and we wanted him so badly - sadly, another broker got him from the broker selling him and loaded him off before we could bid on him. He was loaded onto a packed trailer with all large horses.....I can't imagine it was pleasant for him. The reason I know he was loaded onto the packed trailer full of large horses was because an older woman was throwing a fit about all the kicking and screaming coming from that trailer as it drove off. Imagine being that tiny and trying to defend yourself from a scared group of large horses?
Registered horses aren't guaranteed a good life, but I do believe they have a better shot than unregistered horses do in MOST circumstances. Just my opinion from many days sitting at auctions and trying to keep my emotions in check as I see who is buying up those that go through. :no:
Danielle_E.
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I have more respect for the person who says this then some breeder that breeds more than they can handle and then has to DUMP them at a low end auction. As I said if you can't afford to keep what you don't sell YOU SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING MORE MINIS!!!! It has nothing to do with quality versus non quality. I have seen excellent quality get "dumped" in all breeds. I have seen on many forums, this one as well, where what is perceived as "quality" is truly NOT! Barn blind does not discrimate to big breeders or little breeders. I know I have gone to some site of what I would call breeders with excellent quality stock and seen some that are LESS quality and the big $$$ are still attached and I think, WHAT??? You wan't $5,000 for an animal that is worth perhaps $1,000. Why? Because of your name? No way.
And this is EXACTLY why a "reputable" breeder doesn't breed more than they can handle and retain until they can find suitable home for what they are breeding. I don't know how people who breed minis and don't give a rat's patootie what happens to them... how the heck can they sleep at night? seriously. Don't get me going about "reputable" .... I won't go into details but how would you like to purchase a mare who is bred... and then find out that this mare's filly that was born after you bought her and had a breeding certificate, etc. that this mare was bred by 3 different stallions!!!! and the line "who's your daddy" truly applies in this case. More power to the smaller breeder and larger breeder that is reputable and will hang on to their miniatures and not dump them at low auctions, I have absolutely no respect for those big or small that dump them at low auctions. If you find yourself in a situation where you are in a total bind then GIVE THEM TO A GOOD HOME, don't take the chance they will end up on a meat truck!!!!
This is something I am very passionate about, since I have a rescue (arabian) in my barn and I plan in the next few years to acquire more that are at risk going for meat.
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~Palomino~
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Yah but some people forget what the TRUE pleasure of the miniature horse are and focus only on the $40,000.00 and not that it is a pet... I think Susan's point was more that just because you don't show and maybe because your intrests are somewhere other then showing (IE taking horses to nursing homes, parades, breeding, even if they arn't national champions) DOES NOT MEAN that you are irresponsible! Not everyones going to want a show horse and not everyones going to want somthing that is worth tons of money, and some people just want pets... whats wrong with that? Why does it have to be a national champion to have fun with it and be a pet?
like some people say, my horse is a national champion in my heart! Horses are not ALL about showing, and just because a registery picks up a standard of perfection doesent mean that should be the way everyone beleives in breeding...
And remember, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Rather AMHA/AMHR judges think it or not...
Don't get my wrong! I personaly want to get into showing and breeding nice horses, but just because I want to do that doesent mean EVERYONE should do that...
Gage
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Reijel's Mom
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Michelle -
Though I agree with most of your post this comment does get to me a bit. How is someone who breeds for themselves and PLANS to keep any foal any "worse" than someone who breeds and has a plan to sell, even on a very small scale? Yes, you may see to it that they are placed in homes that you believe to be responsible - but what if that home sells them, or sells the offspring of them, which is usually what happens in the horse world. In a way you are responsible, you helped to bring these animals into the world, and obviously the future generations are going to be around longer than you are - so I don't really see that as any different than a person who plans to keep any minis that they have bred and then passes away.
Interesting topic and opinions all around!
Michelle@wescofarms
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Michelle -
Though I agree with most of your post this comment does get to me a bit. How is someone who breeds for themselves and PLANS to keep any foal any "worse" than someone who breeds and has a plan to sell, even on a very small scale? Yes, you may see to it that they are placed in homes that you believe to be responsible - but what if that home sells them, or sells the offspring of them, which is usually what happens in the horse world. In a way you are responsible, you helped to bring these animals into the world, and obviously the future generations are going to be around longer than you are - so I don't really see that as any different than a person who plans to keep any minis that they have bred and then passes away.
I guess I should clarify that as I breed for myself and do keep any foal until the right home is found or they become lifers here. I have a large retirement herd.
I'm not meaning it as a condemnation of people, just a reality check. I know personally, people that do breed for a variety of reasons, some very valid and others . . . well I'm not the judge & jury, but there are those long term consequences to consider. You're right about future generations of the minis I chose to produce, too. It took me a few years to get that myself. My original 'mentor' when I got minis was a breed them all and sell them all type. My whole thoughts on breeding have undergone dramatic shifts over the years away from that. I've become much more discriminating on which horses are bred and why. Not to say I have it right, but I do try to be thoughtful about what doing and not plan purely on an emotional or for a sentimental reason. Those do come along, but are not my driving force.
As for the steps I personally take, most of the contracts we write (not all as there are a few individual horses I hope never to see again!!), state that I have a buy back clause. It isn't likely to be enforeable, I know, but I do hope it keeps people honest. I also ask and about 85% of the people comply with keeping regularly in touch so I do know how the horses are doing - I call Christmas season the check in. I usually get updates then from people I don't hear from regularly. I have also sent people elsewhere that I didn't feel I wanted to sell to.
If there was a way to safely and inexpensively spay mares, I would do that to ones that I think should not be bred. As there isn't most stay here or go to a trusted home only.
Personally, I'm not selling TV's or cars - so I do care how they are and worry about there future. I referred two different buyers today to other breeders, as I don't have what they're looking for and I'm not going to try to make something fit that won't!
Though I agree with most of your post this comment does get to me a bit. How is someone who breeds for themselves and PLANS to keep any foal any "worse" than someone who breeds and has a plan to sell, even on a very small scale? Yes, you may see to it that they are placed in homes that you believe to be responsible - but what if that home sells them, or sells the offspring of them, which is usually what happens in the horse world. In a way you are responsible, you helped to bring these animals into the world, and obviously the future generations are going to be around longer than you are - so I don't really see that as any different than a person who plans to keep any minis that they have bred and then passes away.
I guess I should clarify that as I breed for myself and do keep any foal until the right home is found or they become lifers here. I have a large retirement herd.
I'm not meaning it as a condemnation of people, just a reality check. I know personally, people that do breed for a variety of reasons, some very valid and others . . . well I'm not the judge & jury, but there are those long term consequences to consider. You're right about future generations of the minis I chose to produce, too. It took me a few years to get that myself. My original 'mentor' when I got minis was a breed them all and sell them all type. My whole thoughts on breeding have undergone dramatic shifts over the years away from that. I've become much more discriminating on which horses are bred and why. Not to say I have it right, but I do try to be thoughtful about what doing and not plan purely on an emotional or for a sentimental reason. Those do come along, but are not my driving force.
As for the steps I personally take, most of the contracts we write (not all as there are a few individual horses I hope never to see again!!), state that I have a buy back clause. It isn't likely to be enforeable, I know, but I do hope it keeps people honest. I also ask and about 85% of the people comply with keeping regularly in touch so I do know how the horses are doing - I call Christmas season the check in. I usually get updates then from people I don't hear from regularly. I have also sent people elsewhere that I didn't feel I wanted to sell to.
If there was a way to safely and inexpensively spay mares, I would do that to ones that I think should not be bred. As there isn't most stay here or go to a trusted home only.
Personally, I'm not selling TV's or cars - so I do care how they are and worry about there future. I referred two different buyers today to other breeders, as I don't have what they're looking for and I'm not going to try to make something fit that won't!
rabbitsfizz
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There is also the unfortunate assumption that if you are breeding "just for yourself" it does not matter at all that you are breeding Tommy to Daisy and that neither have anything to offer- this justifies in your eyes keeping Tommy entire, totally.
I have also had this spun as a line to me in order to get foals cheap- and I do mean CHEAP.
"Oh we only want them as pets and to breed a foal just for us- to keep for ever." Of course those animals HAVE to be show quality (all this is rhetorical by now as I have lost interest and walked off!!) and the reason they should not have to pay "show price" is because the horses will just be pets!!
Sorry, I do NOT breed "pet" animals , deliberately, and you do NOT go to a breeder, especially one who will sell you something cheap anyway if you are genuine, and try to hoodwink them.
I know a lot of people are genuine in their desires BUT you just do NOT breed indiscriminately- whatever the reason.
How often have you rushed to gently dissuade someone from breeding their (very pretty) mongrel bitch "so she can have a litter"???
Why should it be any different with horses???
If you want a foal, get a good mare and breed her out to a better stallion- the result is still a foal born at home, just for you.
And a good one.
If you buy a good little colt with your filly, have him gelded and you also have the "family unit" you so much desire.
Why on earth would you buy a grade colt and a grade filly and breed them??
It is of course your business what you do in your own backyard but, please, do not come on a Forum like this and try to justify your doing it by saying you are doing people who want "pets" a favour, or inferring that we are all snobs because we prefer registered stock capable (in theory) of showing.
No, we are not snobs we are admirers of Miniature Horses- anything without papers is a grade PONY- a Miniature Horse is only something registered as such.
Just as a Doberman is a registered dog.
Mine are now all pets.
All neutered.
They are also ALL registered.
Anything else is a Mutt.
Still loved, still adored, still totally worthwhile.
Just not a Doberman.
I have also had this spun as a line to me in order to get foals cheap- and I do mean CHEAP.
"Oh we only want them as pets and to breed a foal just for us- to keep for ever." Of course those animals HAVE to be show quality (all this is rhetorical by now as I have lost interest and walked off!!) and the reason they should not have to pay "show price" is because the horses will just be pets!!
Sorry, I do NOT breed "pet" animals , deliberately, and you do NOT go to a breeder, especially one who will sell you something cheap anyway if you are genuine, and try to hoodwink them.
I know a lot of people are genuine in their desires BUT you just do NOT breed indiscriminately- whatever the reason.
How often have you rushed to gently dissuade someone from breeding their (very pretty) mongrel bitch "so she can have a litter"???
Why should it be any different with horses???
If you want a foal, get a good mare and breed her out to a better stallion- the result is still a foal born at home, just for you.
And a good one.
If you buy a good little colt with your filly, have him gelded and you also have the "family unit" you so much desire.
Why on earth would you buy a grade colt and a grade filly and breed them??
It is of course your business what you do in your own backyard but, please, do not come on a Forum like this and try to justify your doing it by saying you are doing people who want "pets" a favour, or inferring that we are all snobs because we prefer registered stock capable (in theory) of showing.
No, we are not snobs we are admirers of Miniature Horses- anything without papers is a grade PONY- a Miniature Horse is only something registered as such.
Just as a Doberman is a registered dog.
Mine are now all pets.
All neutered.
They are also ALL registered.
Anything else is a Mutt.
Still loved, still adored, still totally worthwhile.
Just not a Doberman.
It never fails to amaze me about all the people who come to my farm, see my horses and it sparks a love and interest in them that they were not aware of. That makes it all worthwhile to me. My horses have sparked a happiness in a lot of people...from just getting their picture taken with the smallest horse they have ever seen to allowing someone who has never driven a cart to take a ride that changes their whole idea of horses!
We selectively breed our horses, not every horse should be bred in my opinion. We strive to produce the best horse possible and so far, every foal seems to be better than the last! But we planned our breeding program. To be honest I have bought horses I will probably never breed. That does not diminish my affection for them. I bought them because I loved them, not as future income producers or baby producers.
We try to produce a BETTER horse with each foaling. That makes them hard to sell. Most people want pet quality to be frank and it is hard to sell a show quality horse for 1/3 his price. But we do it for the right homes. Homes where the horse will be appreciated and loved for his intelligence and temperament and beauty if he never hits a show ring.
I will never get rich doing this. I have a good job that hopefully will allow me to continue to eat 3 meals a day.
I will certainly never pay off my son's college loans doing this. But I will probably live longer, be absolutely be happier and retain my sanity by doing this. NOTHING makes me happier than watching my horses romp and play at the end of a very STRESSFUL day. I am living a dream that most people will never get to enjoy! Thanks to God and my wonderful horse friends....
We selectively breed our horses, not every horse should be bred in my opinion. We strive to produce the best horse possible and so far, every foal seems to be better than the last! But we planned our breeding program. To be honest I have bought horses I will probably never breed. That does not diminish my affection for them. I bought them because I loved them, not as future income producers or baby producers.
We try to produce a BETTER horse with each foaling. That makes them hard to sell. Most people want pet quality to be frank and it is hard to sell a show quality horse for 1/3 his price. But we do it for the right homes. Homes where the horse will be appreciated and loved for his intelligence and temperament and beauty if he never hits a show ring.
I will never get rich doing this. I have a good job that hopefully will allow me to continue to eat 3 meals a day.
I will certainly never pay off my son's college loans doing this. But I will probably live longer, be absolutely be happier and retain my sanity by doing this. NOTHING makes me happier than watching my horses romp and play at the end of a very STRESSFUL day. I am living a dream that most people will never get to enjoy! Thanks to God and my wonderful horse friends....
McBunz
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Well going to be a nit picker just for the heck of it.. When you look at the pedigrees of a lot of top miniatures
there are a lot of unregisted horses in those pedigrees..or unknowns... and if the registeries had not closed
a lot more horses would probably be registered.. Bye the way mine are all reg. and I would not buy any that
are not.. but that is just me... Flame away if you must...
:
there are a lot of unregisted horses in those pedigrees..or unknowns... and if the registeries had not closed
a lot more horses would probably be registered.. Bye the way mine are all reg. and I would not buy any that
are not.. but that is just me... Flame away if you must...
littlesteppers
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OOOOkay..I got thoughts too...sometimes :bgrin
What IF Buckeroo never had been shown? BIG promotions going on..would he not sit somewhere in a backyard and produce just as many gorgeous foals??
Just because owners don't promote or show..and CHOOSE to be condent with breeding..there horses could be just as beautiful.
I seen some darn handsome horses in backyards..Just NOT promoted.
Now if anybody buys a "GREAT" horses offspring..are they not just riding the promotion of the horses owners??
: 
What IF Buckeroo never had been shown? BIG promotions going on..would he not sit somewhere in a backyard and produce just as many gorgeous foals??
Just because owners don't promote or show..and CHOOSE to be condent with breeding..there horses could be just as beautiful.
I seen some darn handsome horses in backyards..Just NOT promoted.
Now if anybody buys a "GREAT" horses offspring..are they not just riding the promotion of the horses owners??
horsehug
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Thanks Everyone for all your sincere responses.
I just wanted to clear up a few things that seemed to come across the wrong way, even though I was trying to say things clearly. Writing has not ever been my strong suit
I never wanted to give the impression I thought inferior animals should be bred. Several times I alluded to the fact that I think, like Littlesteppers said, that gorgeous champion quality, while it may never be shown, can just as easily MANY times come from small "unknown" farms. By the same token, I do not think every mini should be bred by any means! My reference at the beginning about showing my minis at our county fairs and saying that they were not even AMHA or AMHR sanctioned got folks going on the idea of breeding unregistered animals. What I was trying to say was that showing them at little fun shows or county fairs, ( at least in MY case) was a good way to get even more people to know about minis!
I personally have never bred unregistered minis yet. I have on occasion bought one, but I hardshipped in when I did that. I just choose not to judge those who do. I have seen unregistered foals going to absolutely wonderful homes where they are truly loved.
I also think, like I have heard said on here often, that keeping in mind there is no such thing as a perfect horse...... we each have our own checklist of which faults we consider major and therefore non breeding material, and which we consider minor, and therefore breedable but with the effort to complement with a breeding partner that is strong in that area instead of weak.
Just like we all do not agree on the "type" we prefer. I still feel like I said in my first post, for ME, it is very important to be breeding for animals with the conformation for living happy healthy lives, meaning the conformation to move comfortably, as well as eat comfortably, as well as foal easily. Many that fill these qualifcations would end up show quality for their type.
Others are breeding strictly with the hopes to excel in the show ring, and that is okay too!!
I also am sorry it seemed that I was causing a division. I truly meant that I think there are lots of ways to enjoy our wonderful little horses and I cheer on those I know who choose to show! But I also admire and cheer on those who are quietly enjoying theirs out of the public eye in whatever way they enjoy their minis. And I enjoy going to the small farms when I get a chance and seeing what fine minis many of them also have. As a matter of fact, about the only thing other than visiting my own human kids and grandson, that will ever get me away from my own small farm for any kind of vacation, is to visit other mini farms if I get a chance.
I also enjoy seeing the more well known farms' pictures........ show and otherwise, in the magazines. I always have enjoyed them!
I also wanted to say that I also tell my buyers if things do not work out, that they can bring the horse back to me. I HAVE bought back several horses over the years and either found another home for, or kept here as long as it lived. I feel I am responsible for the babies I raise........and no I would not continue to breed, if I could not find them what I consider to be good homes. But then I feel we are ALL responsible for taking care of the ones we raise. If EACH one of us did that, they would not end up in sad situations.
And yes, I try to keep in touch with those I sell to, and there are only a VERY FEW that I no longer know where they are after 19 years in minis.
I also admire those who do choose to rescue minis that are in need of rescue, because someone did not choose to take their responsibility seriously. Some people truly love doing rescue work also as their contribution and their niche in the mini world.
There will always be several ways to view any topic.
I just wanted to express mine, as I often think about lots of these things and thought that many folks are probably intimidated about expressing some of these things that I figured lots of folks probably also feel......so I thought I'd take a chance. I might have been a tad crazy, but I did it anyway.
Thanks again to all of you on all sides, and to those who pm'd me also.
I appreciate your thoughts, even those who disagree with me on various points.
Susan O.
I just wanted to clear up a few things that seemed to come across the wrong way, even though I was trying to say things clearly. Writing has not ever been my strong suit
I never wanted to give the impression I thought inferior animals should be bred. Several times I alluded to the fact that I think, like Littlesteppers said, that gorgeous champion quality, while it may never be shown, can just as easily MANY times come from small "unknown" farms. By the same token, I do not think every mini should be bred by any means! My reference at the beginning about showing my minis at our county fairs and saying that they were not even AMHA or AMHR sanctioned got folks going on the idea of breeding unregistered animals. What I was trying to say was that showing them at little fun shows or county fairs, ( at least in MY case) was a good way to get even more people to know about minis!
I personally have never bred unregistered minis yet. I have on occasion bought one, but I hardshipped in when I did that. I just choose not to judge those who do. I have seen unregistered foals going to absolutely wonderful homes where they are truly loved.
I also think, like I have heard said on here often, that keeping in mind there is no such thing as a perfect horse...... we each have our own checklist of which faults we consider major and therefore non breeding material, and which we consider minor, and therefore breedable but with the effort to complement with a breeding partner that is strong in that area instead of weak.
Just like we all do not agree on the "type" we prefer. I still feel like I said in my first post, for ME, it is very important to be breeding for animals with the conformation for living happy healthy lives, meaning the conformation to move comfortably, as well as eat comfortably, as well as foal easily. Many that fill these qualifcations would end up show quality for their type.
Others are breeding strictly with the hopes to excel in the show ring, and that is okay too!!
I also am sorry it seemed that I was causing a division. I truly meant that I think there are lots of ways to enjoy our wonderful little horses and I cheer on those I know who choose to show! But I also admire and cheer on those who are quietly enjoying theirs out of the public eye in whatever way they enjoy their minis. And I enjoy going to the small farms when I get a chance and seeing what fine minis many of them also have. As a matter of fact, about the only thing other than visiting my own human kids and grandson, that will ever get me away from my own small farm for any kind of vacation, is to visit other mini farms if I get a chance.
I also enjoy seeing the more well known farms' pictures........ show and otherwise, in the magazines. I always have enjoyed them!
I also wanted to say that I also tell my buyers if things do not work out, that they can bring the horse back to me. I HAVE bought back several horses over the years and either found another home for, or kept here as long as it lived. I feel I am responsible for the babies I raise........and no I would not continue to breed, if I could not find them what I consider to be good homes. But then I feel we are ALL responsible for taking care of the ones we raise. If EACH one of us did that, they would not end up in sad situations.
And yes, I try to keep in touch with those I sell to, and there are only a VERY FEW that I no longer know where they are after 19 years in minis.
I also admire those who do choose to rescue minis that are in need of rescue, because someone did not choose to take their responsibility seriously. Some people truly love doing rescue work also as their contribution and their niche in the mini world.
There will always be several ways to view any topic.
I just wanted to express mine, as I often think about lots of these things and thought that many folks are probably intimidated about expressing some of these things that I figured lots of folks probably also feel......so I thought I'd take a chance. I might have been a tad crazy, but I did it anyway.
Thanks again to all of you on all sides, and to those who pm'd me also.
I appreciate your thoughts, even those who disagree with me on various points.
Susan O.
nootka
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Bringing up papers vs. none, pet vs. show, big vs. small, etc. etc., is all beside the point.
If we toss all that out, our common, singular goal should be to breed the BEST, most correct and sound.
They MAY be for a pet, indeed, but if I were to buy a pet (now that I am educated), I have to say that I would still want one with good legs (no stifle problems, arthritis from poorly made joints, a nice stride), and good, long legs (not way out of proportion for the body), a nicely made neck, a pretty head, and all in proportion. I want a horse for a pet that LOOKS like last year's World Champion/National Champion. Yes, I DO.
Lets face it that many people "just" buying pets are not horse savvy. They don't know a bad stifle from a good one, nor do they recognize dwarf traits. I think it's reprehensible to take "poor" quality and breed for that type and call it "pets" as if it's something very noble. Pets are wonderful, but I guarantee you that the horse in my avatar, who is a local Grand Champion, he is relatively correct, and REGISTERED with both AMHA and AMHR (thanks to the fact that I hardshipped his dam), would make an awesome pet. He is NOT a spoiled show horse (well, he IS, but that's the Diva in him), nor are his legs "twigs that would snap." He IS a tiny bit heavier than most of the upper level champions, but it is not a fault, just an opinion-based thing. He is also a gelding, and 33" tall. Doesn't the pet market deserve at LEAST that quality? Maybe someone wants one under 28" but therein lies a difference of taste. I would be willing to bet that it exists out there.
Breeding FOR pets is merely a secondary goal, as all of them will be pets in one form or another, when it boils down to it.
If you want a pet, and then a baby, go rescue a mare that is at auction or owner-induced dispersal. Another pet? Go pick one up at the auction, but then don't throw them into a herd and start breeding just for pets. Take it up another level. You know the old "shoot for the moon you may just hit a star" way of thinking? If you're aiming low, then your "near misses" will be lower.
I would not think of trying to tell someone not to breed for their own reasons when they are responsible about it, but then it isn't very responsible to breed horses just as a companion to stand around out in a pasture, when you could likely ask around or go to an auction and find a pet there, one that needs a home, is born, etc.
Having a goal, having plans for breeding a type is not wrong, but it is wrong to be blind about it and think it is because of a snobbery relating to "registration status" or "show history" or "price of purchase." A poorly made horse is a poorly made horse. Yes, they can still be a pet, but they don't need to be bred to make more of them, no matter how sweet they are!!! And yes, many people come to look at them, and fall in love, but they also fall in love with nicer ones. I've had many large horse people see some of mine and be impressed for the nicer conformation and proportions, and maybe a light go on in their eyes, where they would tell me "Most of the minis I see are so small and short legs, long bodies, big heads, homely little things but cute." I hear that a LOT from people that know big horses, but rarely about my little guys even though they have NOWHERE NEAR the proportion I'd like, which is relative to a full-sized horse.
No, they don't have litters of babies, but there are still hundreds and probably thousands of Miniature horses out there who do need homes, including a few pregnant mares for that "have a baby" thrill.
Liz M.
If we toss all that out, our common, singular goal should be to breed the BEST, most correct and sound.
They MAY be for a pet, indeed, but if I were to buy a pet (now that I am educated), I have to say that I would still want one with good legs (no stifle problems, arthritis from poorly made joints, a nice stride), and good, long legs (not way out of proportion for the body), a nicely made neck, a pretty head, and all in proportion. I want a horse for a pet that LOOKS like last year's World Champion/National Champion. Yes, I DO.
Lets face it that many people "just" buying pets are not horse savvy. They don't know a bad stifle from a good one, nor do they recognize dwarf traits. I think it's reprehensible to take "poor" quality and breed for that type and call it "pets" as if it's something very noble. Pets are wonderful, but I guarantee you that the horse in my avatar, who is a local Grand Champion, he is relatively correct, and REGISTERED with both AMHA and AMHR (thanks to the fact that I hardshipped his dam), would make an awesome pet. He is NOT a spoiled show horse (well, he IS, but that's the Diva in him), nor are his legs "twigs that would snap." He IS a tiny bit heavier than most of the upper level champions, but it is not a fault, just an opinion-based thing. He is also a gelding, and 33" tall. Doesn't the pet market deserve at LEAST that quality? Maybe someone wants one under 28" but therein lies a difference of taste. I would be willing to bet that it exists out there.
Breeding FOR pets is merely a secondary goal, as all of them will be pets in one form or another, when it boils down to it.
If you want a pet, and then a baby, go rescue a mare that is at auction or owner-induced dispersal. Another pet? Go pick one up at the auction, but then don't throw them into a herd and start breeding just for pets. Take it up another level. You know the old "shoot for the moon you may just hit a star" way of thinking? If you're aiming low, then your "near misses" will be lower.
I would not think of trying to tell someone not to breed for their own reasons when they are responsible about it, but then it isn't very responsible to breed horses just as a companion to stand around out in a pasture, when you could likely ask around or go to an auction and find a pet there, one that needs a home, is born, etc.
Having a goal, having plans for breeding a type is not wrong, but it is wrong to be blind about it and think it is because of a snobbery relating to "registration status" or "show history" or "price of purchase." A poorly made horse is a poorly made horse. Yes, they can still be a pet, but they don't need to be bred to make more of them, no matter how sweet they are!!! And yes, many people come to look at them, and fall in love, but they also fall in love with nicer ones. I've had many large horse people see some of mine and be impressed for the nicer conformation and proportions, and maybe a light go on in their eyes, where they would tell me "Most of the minis I see are so small and short legs, long bodies, big heads, homely little things but cute." I hear that a LOT from people that know big horses, but rarely about my little guys even though they have NOWHERE NEAR the proportion I'd like, which is relative to a full-sized horse.
No, they don't have litters of babies, but there are still hundreds and probably thousands of Miniature horses out there who do need homes, including a few pregnant mares for that "have a baby" thrill.
Liz M.
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capall beag
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Susan I think writing is your strong suit
: You topics are very well written.
I just read your most recent topic and you definately sound like you are doing the right thing with your minis!
Great topic, really interesting!
I just read your most recent topic and you definately sound like you are doing the right thing with your minis!
Great topic, really interesting!
AppyLover2
Well-Known Member
Susan I, too, agree with your post.
I don't breed and probably never will (although all the gorgeous new babies this time of year makes me want to soooo bad). I only have 1 mare and 2 geldings.
There is something I keep seeing that really bugs me when people are telling others not to breed (for whatever reason ie, mare isn't good enough, stallion isn't good enough, one or the other (or both) aren't registered, the market is flooded, etc.). Over and over again (and I've seen something similar on this thread) people say things like the "big breeders don't always get show quality foals; some are pet quality". I wonder if, by making a statement like this, people are saying that the "big" breeders are producing enough of both kinds of mini, so nobody else should (or has the right to) breed?
If so, what kind of double standard is that? To say "well, I breed for 30 foals a year and if half of them are pet quality that means that other people (small breeders/back-yard breeders, call them what you will) have to breed less because of the 15 "pets" I will produce."
IMHO it isn't the small breeders who are flooding the market. I'm sure that when mini's were "new" and more "unique" there was a huge market for them, and those people who were bringing 10, 20, 30 or more foals into the world every spring filled a need. But, I think that need has been met and we're now at the point when all breeders need to re-think breeding practices. But, that doesn't mean telling other people they shouldn't do it all when we aren't willing to cut back.
Gosh....it feels good to finally put that in writing!
Edited to add - Something else that bugs me when it comes to all this talk about too many horses. How many sale ads do you read that don't say something about breeding? Darned few I'll bet. If you don't think people should be breeding so many horses, you should quit using breeding qualities as a sales pitch.
I don't breed and probably never will (although all the gorgeous new babies this time of year makes me want to soooo bad). I only have 1 mare and 2 geldings.
There is something I keep seeing that really bugs me when people are telling others not to breed (for whatever reason ie, mare isn't good enough, stallion isn't good enough, one or the other (or both) aren't registered, the market is flooded, etc.). Over and over again (and I've seen something similar on this thread) people say things like the "big breeders don't always get show quality foals; some are pet quality". I wonder if, by making a statement like this, people are saying that the "big" breeders are producing enough of both kinds of mini, so nobody else should (or has the right to) breed?
If so, what kind of double standard is that? To say "well, I breed for 30 foals a year and if half of them are pet quality that means that other people (small breeders/back-yard breeders, call them what you will) have to breed less because of the 15 "pets" I will produce."
IMHO it isn't the small breeders who are flooding the market. I'm sure that when mini's were "new" and more "unique" there was a huge market for them, and those people who were bringing 10, 20, 30 or more foals into the world every spring filled a need. But, I think that need has been met and we're now at the point when all breeders need to re-think breeding practices. But, that doesn't mean telling other people they shouldn't do it all when we aren't willing to cut back.
Gosh....it feels good to finally put that in writing!
Edited to add - Something else that bugs me when it comes to all this talk about too many horses. How many sale ads do you read that don't say something about breeding? Darned few I'll bet. If you don't think people should be breeding so many horses, you should quit using breeding qualities as a sales pitch.
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I don't think anyone means "big" as in "lots of foals." When I see someone say that, I take it to mean that no matter how great a breeder you are, no matter the quality of mare and stallion, there WILL be pet quality, and so no need to breed and badly conformed stallion to a worse mare FOR pet quality. And the horses that do come out beautifully and have great potential can also make wonderful pets WITH good conformation.
Susan, these were wonderful posts of yours here and though you say you are not good with words, I think you were great with your words. Everything you said was honest and sincere and I agree with you 100%.
I also agree with your liking the small ones as I do myself. I have dabbled with showing and one little colt I sold went on the AMHA Nationals in 1994 in Ohio and came out 4th in a stallion halter class, one of my proudest achievements with my minis. But what I enjoyed the most was my years of breeding and seeing that tiny little miracle come into life and second came the joys and happiness I see in folks eyes at parades I have done, nursing home visits and a Christmas tableau yearly which draws about 300 folks, young and old, at a local farm where I take one of my smaller mature miniatures each December. Thanks again, Susan, for this thread and I'm proud to be one of your mini friends.
Joyce
I also agree with your liking the small ones as I do myself. I have dabbled with showing and one little colt I sold went on the AMHA Nationals in 1994 in Ohio and came out 4th in a stallion halter class, one of my proudest achievements with my minis. But what I enjoyed the most was my years of breeding and seeing that tiny little miracle come into life and second came the joys and happiness I see in folks eyes at parades I have done, nursing home visits and a Christmas tableau yearly which draws about 300 folks, young and old, at a local farm where I take one of my smaller mature miniatures each December. Thanks again, Susan, for this thread and I'm proud to be one of your mini friends.
Joyce
J
just2minis
Guest
I like what Appylover2 (Donna) wrote. I am not good at putting my thoughts in writing but she nailed it for me.
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