Just some of my own thoughts and feelings

[Buckskin gal]

Susan, I don't think you will hurt any feelings with what you say. I always like hearing others opinions and why they choose to do what they are doing with the miniatures. In part, I too think that people who own miniatures should have the type they want in their pasture but when it comes to breeding I think it is a huge responsibility that should not be taken lightly. You have every right to breed and raise horses but do we have the right to bring so many into the world that some might end up in the wrong places or is that just the chance a breeder takes? And even though we love those babies do we look at what future they have or are we being selfish in just filling our own desires to have babies that are a joy to us? And why so many to get that joy......would one or two not fill that joy? We all claim to love our horses but yet we do put them at risk whenever we plan for them to have a foal...we hear all the time of the terrible experiences mares can have while foaling. And there are peolple who claim to love their minis and yet aren't even around to tend to the foaling mare in case something does go wrong. We can love and enjoy our minis but is there really a need to produce so many? People do have selfish reasons for breeding and alot of people get into breeding without the knowledge to breed for sound and healthy horses. Take a cute stallion and some mares and many think that is all that is needed....people need to study which lines have faults that should not be perpetuated and minis do have them....I totaly agree with you that there is something wonderful about having healthy, beautiful foals ...they make our hearts swell but should a horse be bred just to fill our need of wanting to enjoy those foals when it is a fact that way too many foals are being brought into the world that will end up being abused or not wanted, after a time? For me, there is a huge difference between loving our horses and loving to have foals. We all have the "right" to do what we want to with our horses and I would never want to see that right taken away. Too often rights are abused though and animals suffer for it.

I think the reason many people don't encourage using some of the stallions that are pictured is because they aren't seeing the whole picture of that stallion. Can't look into that mouth, can't see if it has bloodlines that may produce dwarfs or other horrible faults and I also think there are people who just plain think that not every person makes a responsible breeder. I could go on and on as to why breeding should be limited but I would much prefer each person who thinks about breeding to really evaluate why they want to breed a horse and know that the foal will always have a quality life after leaving the breeder. I think too many people look at breeding as a fun, entertaining, profitable thing to do without thinking of the life they have brought into this world. I do understand the enjoyument a mini can bring....have all kinds of ways we enjoy them but we also love our horses and don't want to breed them just for the pleasure of having foals to love on. And Susan, I really doubt that you are going to the "beat of a different drummer"...not with the replies you are getting. I do agree that each person should have the type they want in their pastures but when it comes to breeding, more than type needs to be considered.....health, disposition, the market, the life of the horse and if it will always be a joy to someone etc. I just hope that no one takes breeding animals lightly and will be responsible for the horses they bring into the world. Would love to see your horses, someday. Mary

"I believe that in the "overall big picture", the vast majority of mini owners do not show, and also a huge number of mini owners have their own stallions. I am one of those. I used to show close to home years ago, but my heart has always been much more in the breeding and foaling end of it. I think those who show and love it should definitely be showing. I have friends who do, and I cheer them on!

I also think those who have their own stallions and mares and choose to raise foals each year and get tremendous joy out of that, should do that. Miniature horses have SO many ways of bringing joy and we each have to find our own niche."

.

 

[Reble]

I believe we all Agree to Disagree

Different

by Vincen Tabatha

How are we so "different"?

If "different" is just a thing.

If we all have certain features,

What does "different" bring?

People filled with hatred,

Can't possibly see,

That there's not really "differences"

Between you and me.

Looks can't show "difference",

If they're just there to be seen.

If you don't look like someone else,

Why are they so mean?

If being "different" is what is wrong,

I'd rather not be right.

And I'd want to finish living,

Doing the "different" fight.

 

[kenna]

Why do we have to be a breed that is only about breeding?

:aktion033:

 

[palsminihorses]

Susan,

I just want you to know that I am one of the ones who agrees with you 100%! And I'm sure that there are hundreds more who agree also, but you'll never know it because they won't post it here.

Thank you for a great post from another small breeder!

Pam C.

 

[HGFarm]

I agree with Rabbits

I do not understand the comments regarding the 'champion out of control horse' or the 'neurotic' show horses.

I show. I have been to Nationals and plan on being back this year. I have driven in big parades and tiny town parades. I have shown at open shows against other breeds. I belonged to a driving drill team for over two years. I pleasure drive at home. I would love to learn more about the CDE's and other fun driving events. My horses are my pets. My 'show' horses have the dispositions to go to a nursing home or other facility if I so desired. In no way are they out of control or neurotic. I also breed. I know that all foals are not going to be 'show' quality, but are hopefully just that- QUALITY.

It was always drilled into my head by old time breeders with other breeds to always try to BETTER your stock and the breed. Hopefully a stallion and/or mare will 'nick' and should out produce themselves. The goal was to make the breed better and improve it. It was never to create animals with worse faults than what you already have/had.

We had full sized horses, some of which we did not show. They were used for ranch work, trail riding, roping, hunting, my daughter learned to ride on some of them. They were good quality, healthy, versatile and could have probably done ok in the show ring, had we decided to that- we sold a couple of the foals who went to show homes and qualified for the World several times. At that time, we had no interest and no time to go to that level but were proud that they did.

I have known many dog breeders with various breeds that have the same breeding standards. You breed for the best and it doesnt matter if the dog ends up a loved pet or in the show ring. Good quality is a must to keep the breed alive and going, no matter what the ending result 'job' that animal may have.

Quality and careful breeding is what hopefully helps keep conformation and health issues to a minimum (if you had two lovely dogs but they both had hip dysplasia, would you breed them to create a litter of pups that is 99% sure to get it?) so when the animal does end up as a loved pet or neighborhood family driving horse, it is healthy and happy and the owners are not passing it off from one to the next because of other issues. And yes, some conformation problems as we know, can cause health issues. It is not all about 'looking pretty'.

I understand completely the value of a loved pet- mine are all part of the family, and so were our big horses. But I would not dream of breeding an animal that I did not think could contribute something positive to the breed.

Two champions can produce a horse that will never see a show ring. We all know that. It will make someone a fabulous family pet or whatever.... Since this occurs on a regular basis already, from top horses, why would we want to downgrade and breed even lesser quality and backslide on our breed?

To have a Mini as a pet is great- most of us do- but I would not consider breeding for less than top quality- or as high a quality as you can, as you are going to get a lot of nice 'pets' from those crosses anyway.

Just my opinion - flame away, I have my suit on.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

well I dont know how to fix the problem but a huge part of it is.. most ofther breeds(disiplines) have different circuits A circuit B circuit and schooling shows

There are hunters I know of who have been on the B circuit or schooling shows all there lives and when they sell they sell for BIG money they know there job may not be good enough to go out there and win on the A circuit but can pack a kid around a course like nobody's buisness.

They get the kids to where they are ready to move up and get sold to another new kid and do the same thing.

This happens be it in hunters, dressage, west pleasure CDE or whatever sadly our minis don't have alot of options it is Nationals or open shows and most dont even really put merit in what a horse might be able to do in a open show when it comes to pricing and marketability.

We can all agree that 80-90 percent of the people owning minis will never have the desire to even see a national show and that is not a bad thing.

There just doesnt seem to be alot of options for those that might not have top quality show horses, or the money to show in breed shows (which in most cases is WAY more expensive then open shows) so with such a huge lack of acceptable "jobs" for these horses well they end up being bred.

I don't know what the answer is to make this not be a breed about breeding and our own marketing strategy is always about either showing or breeding top show colt then breed him, wonderful broodmare prospect.. over 95 percent of our adds that we post have to do with horses that are good for BREEDING.. yet we then come back and say why are so many people breeding?

A catch 22 I realize and iwth many local breed shows struggling I realize it can be hard to even think of making and supporting other circuits but in the long run it should be something both registries are thinking about.

It would allow a place for those horses that cant cut it at top levels to have a job and still be very marketable, it would give everyone a place to start and learn which all in all makes most want to do more and learn more - going on to upper levels- and all in all would allow more people to try there hand at showing without feeling they are not good enough and are out horsed or showing against some of the top trainers in there area.

 

[kenna]

I agree, Lisa, there's not nearly as much for miniatures as there is for big horses. I'll risk being wrong by saying halter is probably the most popular "discipline" for miniatures, and halter was started to evaluate breeding stock (except in the case of geldings). I don't know what needs to be done.

 

[Danielle_E.]

I believe for too many years the emphasis with the miniature horse was more of a "halter class" type of equine. That is how the breed is still being portrayed in the magazines, look at all the glossy ads. You do see some ads of a driving mini but not as many so that is the image we are still portraying. How many ads are there of a mini jumping? And in the ads what is usually written, National Championps, halter....blah blah blah. I get caught up in seeing these ads as well but then I sit back and say to myself, there are minis out there that are just as nice conformation wise as some in these "heavy make-up", glossy pics, etc. etc. that will never see a sanctioned show or a National show... Having arabians I see the mimicking that is going on between these two equine "worlds" and in some respects I don't think it's a good thing. Often I have been quite shocked to see the picture of an National Champion mini, unclipped, no makeup, when they are "au-naturel" and not posed for "glamour shots". Until we truly start marketing this breed as a "doing" breed (driving, jumping, etc) the emphasis will always be on "breeding" and "halter". I also don't know of any other breeders of other breeds that breed 20, 30 plus horses a year. We do it why? becasuse they are small, less expensive to feed, house, etc and sell for as much if not more than a horse than can be ridden... Unfortunately we are now seeing the miniature horse in "kill pens" and it won't get better if we continue down the path the breed is going. It's like the hay day of the arabians back in the 80s when the ads, and they are still in some magazines basically saying if you own an arabian and breed it you can use that money to put your child through college/university and get a tax shelter at the same time. The marketing has to change. Now the message that seems to be going out is buy some minis, breed them, sell them, make some money. That is the message that is getting out there now and that is why you are now seeing a surplus of minis at very low $$. My philosophy is "if you can't afford to keep them than don't breed". The problem I believe is with the breeders that breed whatever amount yearly and take them to low end auctions because they "must have room for next year's foal crop". If you can't sell the ones this year but makes you think you will sell the ones next year? These animals didn't ask to be born and they deserve to be placed in suitable homes and not end up in kill pens and slaughter houses.

 

[megaroo]

Like somebody said, we all have different point of views however I agree with the topic of the post!!!

 

[KanoasDestiny]

:aktion033: Wonderful post Susan. You took the thoughts right out of my head.

:

Last Tuesday, I went to my aunt's house, and she has 21 big horses. As I was spending time with each horse, I have to be 100% honest, I could not tell which ones were registered and which ones were not by looking at them. All looked like they were equally capable of riding...and loving. And yes, there was a couple that were unregistered. My uncle pointed out the mares they plan to breed (all registered), and truthfully a few of them, I would not have chosen for myself regardless of bloodlines. They did have an unregistered mare that recently came from an auction that would have been my first choice, as she was beautiful and carried herself better than any of the "boring" mares they picked. And their stallions? They have three, and only one of them would have been one I would personally breed from. One of the others had wonderful champion bloodlines, but he was the ugliest of the three. So to each their own. No one can tell me that because one horse was registered, it was easier, more pleasing, more capable or more beautiful to ride, than one of the unregistered horses. So while I do understand that...IF your goal is to breed for a living, you want to breed "registered" horses, personally...I would want to breed a horse I was attracted to, rather than relying on a piece of paper, for my own pet or riding buddy.

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

I also don't know of any other breeders of other breeds that breed 20, 30 plus horses a year. We do it why?

This is not entirely true, there are breeders in the stock horse world who do breed large number of foals.. I have a friend working for a WP AQHA/APHA farm in Illinois and they are currently awaiting 200 of their OWN mares to foal out (plus they have quite a few who have already foaled) then on top of that they have all of their client mares, and I know they are not the only ones, but I will not mention farm names as I do not think it necessary too... I know of several other farms that breed specifically halter horses (AQHA and APHA as well) that have 20-30 foals due.. Look at all of the Thoroughbred farms, they have 20, 30+ and some of the big ones have almost a hundred or more..

I am in no means disagreeing with you, but stating that the breding for large numbers of foals DO occur in other breeds just as it does in the miniatures, however, it's not as highly common as miniatures because, JMO, the large breed foals take so much more time, discipline and training than out miniatures do.

Personally, and this is just my honest opinion, I'd like to see the minis move away from the 'araby' look and be bred for more-all around horses, the ones that can do it all, (halter, jump, drive) The legs on some of today's minis, in my opinion, look like twigs that will snap with just little pressure, and some of those fillies and mares that are winning classes I would be terrified to breed as I feel they do not have the depth and width of body to carry a foal, let alone the hips to pass the foal, and personally I think that's why there are a high incidence of dystocias, but again, just my opinion

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

Susan that was a really wonderful, heartfelt post. I do agree with much of what you wrote, but you are one of the responsible ones that has years of experience knowing what a good horse is versus many people that will use your words to validate breeding of inferior animals.

I'm in agreement with you that the majority of people do NOT show. It is the same with dogs - I had a dog breeder tell me that - Dog breeders need to face the reality no matter how good the quality of their dogs is, the majority will end up in a pet home. That is the best we could wish for a good pet home for any horse, dog or cat. BUT people should be breeding good quality horses that are close to the breed standard as far as conformation and temperament go and I truly believe those horses should have at least one set of papers (AMHA or AMHR) and be DNA/PQ tested at the very minimum.

I'm against breeding of unregistered horses for any reason - it's like breeding unregistered anything else and totally unnecessary. There are enough unwanted purebreds of every pet species out there now. It is just as easy to get a breeding quality mini that will be a beloved pet and produce higher quality foals, than a grade or pet quality mare or stallion being used for breeding.

The other argument I hate to read - "I'm only breeding for myself and I'll keep any foal". Great! You should be breeding for what gives you pleasure, enjoy looking at and interacting with and thoroughly enjoying. But does everyone that does this consider - what if you die or life changes and forces you to have to sell and you've been breeding a not so great to a not so great? Do people consider what will happen to those probably very cute and loving minis?

Breeding everything that has the equipment is reprehensible, but that is what I was told when I first 'got into minis' and I see lots of people still doing that. I bred 5 mares last year (we have 62 minis), and all our horses are AMHA (most double registered R), all breeding horses are DNA tested and all are PQ tested that I could. All our horses have straight legs, straight bites, and good conformation (I'm not vain enough to say great on anything!), but I stll don't NEED to breed them all.

I look at my current herd of minis, and the four foals we're expecting this year, will with good luck live into their 20's - I'll be in my 60's by that time. I can't know right now if I'll be alive, have a financial reversal, whatever that would force me to sell my minis, including my favorite pets. I'm not sure people think about that when they're breeding. I know I do, and have been thinking what is the responsible thing to do as I get older.

My last comment then off the soapbox. Horses are wonderful, I can't imagine living without them, but I'm not sure people consider the overall cost to keep them. If you start with a healthy, good quality horse in the beginning from sound breeding stock, you're less likely to have problems. When I get buyers that want to buy a mini for cheap - I remind them, that the purchase price is the least costly thing they'll have about owning a mini. The annual maintenance and - heaven forbid - horrific accident that can run into the 5-10K range needs to be considered.

Good post Susan - lots of room for thought for all us!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

This is not entirely true, there are breeders in the stock horse world who do breed large number of foals.. I have a friend working for a WP AQHA/APHA farm in Illinois and they are currently awaiting 200 of their OWN mares to foal out (plus they have quite a few who have already foaled) then on top of that they have all of their client mares, and I know they are not the only ones, but I will not mention farm names as I do not think it necessary too... I know of several other farms that breed specifically halter horses (AQHA and APHA as well) that have 20-30 foals due.. Look at all of the Thoroughbred farms, they have 20, 30+ and some of the big ones have almost a hundred or more..

I

The difference is though .. why yes it takes hundreds of foals to get that special "one" those large horses can go on and most do to have a usable productive life and the majority of them will not be bred.

they will be kids horses, west horses, trail horses, barrel horses, hunters, jumpers, husband horses ect the majority of people looking for large horses are not looking for a horse to breed.

the issue with minis would be that most of them are bought simply to be bred

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

The difference is though .. why yes it takes hundreds of foals to get that special "one" those large horses can go on and most do to have a usable productive life and the majority of them will not be bred.they will be kids horses, west horses, trail horses, barrel horses, hunters, jumpers, husband horses ect the majority of people looking for large horses are not looking for a horse to breed.

To a point this is true, but have you stopped and looked at many of today's AQHA and APHA halter horses? Today's halter horses are bred for muscle and bulk.. However, too many wind up with small feet and legs that can not support the mass of their body.. Sure, because the bulk is what is desired, many of these horses have succesful show careers, but after they retire from the showring or are injured and can no longer show, guess where they end up? If they were successful in the ring they get put into someone's breeding string, but unfortunately many of them are dubbed no longer worth value since they can not move well enough to be a rider..

 

[capall beag]

This is a good post and refreshing and honest.

That said I think Michelle@Wescofarms nailed on the head my thoughts!

To me she appears to be incredibly responsible and caring owner!

I am very impressed with your post Michelle!

:

 

[HGFarm]

Michelle/Wesco I agree.

Unfortunately, that is the thing about Minis. Yes, you can do anything with them that you can with a big horse, except ride them. Which cuts out cutting, barrel racing and games, English Pleasure, the hunter/jumper circuit (except at a pointed Mini show) Team Penning, Endurance and all the other things that other breeds are able to participate in.

Lucky C- I HATE that trend that has been so popular for about 20 years now! I know someone who, after losing their old performance horse (which by the way also earned his halter titles) went out and bought a high dollar halter line because it was the hot item at the time. He sold him with a year after breaking him to ride. This horse could NOT MOVE. At all!

To me, a halter horse should be judged on how it represents the BREED, not just one type. A halter horse should be an example of just how versatile and pretty the breed is. They certainly used to do that in the 'old days'. I can think of old Foundation Appaloosas that not only raced, but when they came off the track, were haltered, pleasured, roped off of and even gamed- successfully and lived to see ripe old ages soundly! What happened to those??

I do see, that the Mini world is following that trend. You have your halter horses- and then you have your doin' horses. I think this is a big mistake. I dont want a horse of ANY size, that can only stand there and pose.

I know this is going off topic, and back to what Michelle stated- things dont always work out where the little horse has a lifetime home. I have had life changes a couple of times since getting into Minis and thought I was going to have to sell them all at one point- thank heavens I didnt because I was just sick about it all and wondering what would happen to my 'kids'.

The breeders that may not be into showing is ok. I know many breeders that dont show at all and nothing says that everyone should own a show horse. But the breeders must be careful about what they breed. They know that what they are putting out there on the market, whether it is for a pet or someone else to show, better be as good a one as they can possibly put out there.

The breeders are responsible for the market in it's entirety. So the breeders have a responsibility, above and beyond what show title someone might earn with a horse, to make sure the quality is there- or the attempt to produce such, and not just toss more low quality horses in an already crowded world.

Nobody is required to own a halter horse, or a performance winner. Nobody is required to breed- ever. But those that do must be responsible about it.

I do think this is a great discussion with many good points.

 

[McBunz]

Thank you Sue... you said what I'll bet the majority ...if only silent majority would like to post.

I for one am not the least bit interested in showing.. did my stint with that with dogs... Know

what I like and will try to improve with each generation.. :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

First of all, I have to say that I'm not specifically talking about anyone in particular at this forum - I've RARELY seen anything really rude on here (check out the old alt.rec.equestrian newsgroup lists if you want to see REAL flames!)

What I have never understood is the "us or them" mentality that permeates discussions like these.

It isn't "valued pet OR show horse" - they can be both!

It isn't "correct unregistered OR incorrect registered" or vice-versa.

It isn't "Show quality horse OR decent-minded individual"

We can have all this in every horse if we settle for nothing less... and there are registered horses with prices to fit every budget!

All of this said - you can't really breed "for the good of the breed" by breeding unregistered animals, although you can breed unregistered animals if that's what you want to do... no one's stopping you. Like Michelle said, though - think about what happens to those horses when/if they leave you or if you die.

And what I mean when I say that you can not breed for the good of the breed with unregistered animals is the plain and simple fact that if they aren't registered, they are, technically, and by definition, OUTSIDE of the breed.

They may look like registered miniature horses (or German shepherds, or Siamese cats) - they may be better individuals than some registered miniature horses (or dogs or cats), but a breed is defined by it's registries.

If you're brave enough to ask for opinions in any public forum, you also need to be aware that you are going to get just that - OPINIONS.

Jane and I may violently disagree with each other about something (not that I'm aware we have!

: ) - but you can believe that we've each come to our opinions through decades of experience, and that our own individual opinions have each worked for us, or we'd have changed them along the way!

JUST because we don't agree does NOT mean that we are "flaming" each other... we're just stating our own opinions.

It's the same with all of us - we all have our own opinions and beliefs and we're all entitled to them.... and we need to respect that about each other.

If you want to breed an unregistered stallion - than do it! Don't ask for people's opinions unless you want to hear them!

And remember that here on the forum we're all fellow forum members - we are all "US" - so, at least here, there's no "us VS them"! :bgrin

 

[PaintedPromiseRanch]

well thought out post and many well thought out responses, from many different points of view, very interesting to read ! :aktion033: :aktion033:

from someone who does not show, i must agree that there are TONS of minis out there doing nothing more than bringing a smile to a family day after day... we also take our minis, both horses and donkeys, to visit retirement homes, we do pony rides every year for a special needs preschool... we love parades and hope to do more and more of them as we start our critters driving... the older i get, the less inclined i am to walk parades - this last one about did me in LOL. but EVERY time i take them ANYWHERE, there is SOMEONE who never saw one before (which i just cannot imagine!) and constantly the opportunity to educate the general public and promote these amazing animals. we have big horses too but have found there are so many people who are afraid of them, yet the minis can get through to them...

:

 

[disneyhorse]

I totally agree with Dontworrybeappy.