Is there any hope?

[Beccy]

A few years ago we bought a beautiful registered Welsh pony for our daughter. A couple of years ago, the previous owner needed to get rid of her horses and gave us the son of my daughter's pony (in desperation I think as no one else would take him!), a pretty, but absolutely horrible to catch gelding. It is not that he seems afraid once he is caught, and is quite easy to handle once he has the lead on, (although he is still a stinker to do anything with his hind feet), but getting hold of him is next to impossible unless we bring all the ponies inside, shut the door and corner him. We have tried treats, being quiet and patient, and using another pony he likes the company of to get close to him, but nothing works. Catching this boy is always a major chore as we have to bring everyone inside or he will not set foot in the barn as long as there is someone still outside. He is as awful to catch as the day he came here. Is there any hope that he will ever let us approach him without having to bring everyone inside? He will do anything not to be caught, he will go over or through a fence if he possibly can. At the previous farm they told us he once dove through an open barn window to avoid being caught! Again I will add that he does not seem afraid once you have him, I don't believe this has come from abuse. Any suggestions?

 

[Marty]

Yup I have two that have to be herded and trapped in the barn to be caught when they feel like being butt heads. Gosh what IS their problem??????

And then I have a whole pile of stinkers that pull that one from time to time. Don't feel bad. They take my treats and run for the hills.

I feel so used.

I end up bringing a bucket out with treats and set it on the ground and then when they take the bait and the head is down in the bucket, I slip a lead rope under the neck instead of over the neck as quick as I can. GOTCHA!

 

[RNR]

I have a couple that can be like that at times and one that is alwasys like that!

The worst part is when they are in that mood and I catch them then the impossable to catch ones gose behind me and lets them go!!

All I can say is stick with it don't give up on him!

RNR

 

[CountryHaven]

It might help if you could stall him and not leave him out with the other. Perhaps putting him out in a small round pen type area during the day for excersize, and lunging him, etc. Lots of hands on work. But if he is never in an area where he can really get away from you, he will (hopefully) learn to just let you catch him. I've had a couple in the past and this has worked. The problem is once they learn they can run from you, it's hard to get that knowledge out of them.

 

[kaykay]

takes a lot of patientce to retrain these kind of horses. I have found most people just wont spend the time to do it. The thing is once its done they rarely get hard to catch again. We have one now that I have been working with on being caught and shes so much better.

If a horse refuses to be caught then they have to work. And I mean work. We will start freelunging untiil the horse turns and faces me. Once they turn and face you half the battle is won. It usually only takes 10 mins but a lot of people just wont do it. Once they turn and face me i slowly approach. If the horse moves off again then again i make them work. They will do laps at a fast trot. I do not let them slow down etc until i see them turn to face me. This is a pressure on pressure off method. They will get tired of trotting and moving and will be caught IF YOU ARE PATIENT AND PERSISTENT.

If you give up too soon then you have taught them to be hard to catch. Once you do this you cannot stop. I use the lead rope that I take with me to lunge them when they wont be caught by twirling it

Now once i catch them i give them a treat and lots of scratches and pats. Then the key is to catch them give them a treat and let them go. Catch them give them a treat and let them go.

So what does the horse learn?? First he learns that its much easier and less work to be caught LOL. This works especially quick on idle/lazy horses as they tire out pretty quick and dont want to trot anymore. Then they learn that Good things happen when hes with me like food, scratches, pats.

 

[anoki]

I'm with kaykay on this one!

I have a filly that I bought as a weanling, who is sometimes VERY hard to catch. She will go through spells where she is perfectly good, then what seems like long spells of being very hard to catch. I also do what kaykay does with the free lunging. It does work....but you have to be persistant and consistant!!! The long spells that this filly goes through usually start with me not having the time to deal with it, so I cut a corner....then regret it for the next 3 weeks! She, too, is perfectly quiet and easy to work with when I catch her (heck I took her in to visit some seniors last month and it shocked the heck outta me, coz she LOVED it!!!).

~kathryn

 

[nootka]

I'd try kaykay's method and/or clicker training.

I have one like you describe. Not QUITE that bad, but she's close and she's lived here all her life so I know she wasn't beaten or anything, she just likes being ornery to catch.

Once she has the halter on, she is the most calm horse and a really easy girl to drive, just an all-around sweetheart. Luckily none of her foals have been the way she is though I do have to tie HER up in order to score some time with THEM esp. when they are new.

Liz M.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Welcome to the wonderful world of the Welsh Pony!!!!!

Gosh, this takes me back!!

He needs a "special person" that is all. Once you have found that person this pony will jump through hoops of fire for them.

In the meantime, get a breakaway halter and tie a bit of rope to it about a foot long, no more.

Leave the pony alone, make NO attempt to catch him whatsoever, in fact shun him actively.

The ONLY contact you should have for the next week is to offer him a piece of apple or carrot as you go past, a held out hand, an offer, if he does not take it, walk on.

I used to use Molasses- does anyone remember the fibre based molasses you could get for cattle??

It was like coconut matting but the horses (I had serious biggies at the time) would stand on their noses and twirl for it!!

Anyway, offer the titbit and then walk on, if possible dropping the food where you were- so long as this will not cause a riot with the others!!! (You could do it after the others have gone in and he is alone in the paddock)

You need to be on your way somewhere- so walk in a straight line and go on to the fence, twiddle with something and walk back past him without looking at him and go into the others.

That is the only contact you should have with him.

By the end of the week he will be absolutely seething that you have not been playing the chasing game with him and he will also be very keen to get the food- he should be actually taking it from your hand.

That's when you ask him to walk toward you to get it.

DO NOT TRY TO CATCH HIM!!!!!!

DO NOT touch the lead or halter.

Give him the food, talk to him and walk on to fiddle with the fence.

Each day get him to come more steps to get the food.

Once he is approaching you willingly take hold of the rope attached to he halter, walk him a few steps, give him the food and walk away.

After that he should be OK- do not ask me why but believe me I have had HUNDREDS of these wild little beasties- straight off the hills in some cases, and what I have just said worked, even for a newly gelded, seven year old stallion who had never been touched!!!

Once you get inside their heads they are yours for life- but keep looking for the special person- if it is a tiny child all the better as he will transfer quite easily to the next tiny child when the first one grows up.

Welsh Ponies were born loving kids and knowing that this was what they were made for- I wrote a book about one that I owned many years ago, doing just that.

He fought me to a standstill over everything, right down to turning left when he wanted to go right, but once he had found his family he spread his Angel Wings and never put a foot out of place again!!!

OOPS!!Sorry did not realise I had gone on so much- pleas PM me if you want more!!!

 

[Jill]

I currently have a small pony who is hard to catch if I have a halter (and he can even tell if I'm hiding one). I can hug him, lean over him, pet him, groom him whatever if i don't have a halter or lead rope. I've been lazy as to fixing this and just do what I can normally to trick him. Luckily, his feet rarely need trimming and he will suck the dewormer out of the tube like a treat (it's apple flavored ivermectin).

In the past, one of my big horses was also a pain. What worked for him and very fast was to go out and take a lunge whip and chase him. Each time he'd stop, if he so much as flinched as if not to stand still, I drove him off again. Every time he stopped, I gave him the chance to stand still and when he acted like he wouldn't, I yelled and chased him some more. Finally, with steam rising off his body and him snorting like a dragon, he stopped and stood like a statue for me to "catch" (walk right up to) him. That ended the problem. Prior to fixing it, I'd have to chase him half an hour or longer just to ride him. I know this works, it's just deciding to do it and once you start the session, not stopping until it's worked out.

The idea is basically, horses are lazy animals. As long as the horse is not truly afraid, after "awhile" they will realize it is a lot easier just to let you catch them than to keep having to be run around.

 

[ChrystalPaths]

Oh, Jane is so right! Can you post his picture? How old is he? He's upset and is playing you for sure. I love this type of challenge. If you were closer I'd be planted in your paddock working on his silly head. He truely is a good boy inside but has figured you out already. Try Jane's way if you can. Ponies almost think more than minis! They so often feel we owe them and if you say to him..oh well..you be a goof..here's a carrot..I'm off..bye! He will be absolutely baffled!

 

[Marty]

I used Kay's method all the time with big horses in the past.

Trust me, it' works.

Once the horse is working in the round pen, believe me, his lungs will say "now why the heck didn't I just stand there?" And he'll think twice about running off after that a couple of times of that.

Now why oh why don't I do that with the minis? I dunno, I have 2 good candidates for it.

Another thing also would be to remove that one from the herd and just work one on one with him by himself.

 

[Beccy]

Thank you all for the suggestions, it has given me some more things to try. We have already tried keeping him stalled and in a small area where we can easily catch him when we first got him, but last year we moved our large horses and ponies across the road to our other property, and unfortunately do not have stalls over there yet, they have one end of a large barn as a run in. Laddie is ALWAYS the last one inside. We have also tried the catch and release, catch and release, with no improvement, not even if it involves treats.

I think we are going to have to try to beat the ground freezing, get some posts in the ground for a small pen where we can work with him alone.

Age wise, we are not positive, as we did not get any paperwork at all with him. I am not even sure if he is registered (his dam is). We took him in because he had nowhere else to go. His dam was foaled in 1984, and we bought her in 1997, and Laddie was at least three years old then, so 12+ ?? We got him not quite two years ago.

This is not a good photo but here is Laddie.

and here is his dam, Sady.

Thanks again for the help, we will keep working with him

:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

This pony has got it made- and he has got the measure of you!!

Whilst yo go on chasing him around to get him in he will go on letting you.

Stalling a Welshman does not work as they know, once you let them out that you cannot corner them- they are just about the smartest breed on earth!!

If you work him in a pen he will be almost as bad once he is back in the field.

Yo have to work him in the field and you have to make him come to you.

Once he has come to you , and heaved that huge "OK ,OK, already" sigh he will be yours.

Even at 12 he can learn.

PS- he looks like a Sec "B" to me.

 

[kaykay]

I just want to clarify something. The whole key in what I am saying is getting the horse to stop, turn and face you. This is when you the battle is almost won. As soon as he does that you take the pressure off him by stopping and facing him.

Rabbit im not arguing with you as im sure food alone works too. But it only works for a limited amount of time. Because its not built on respect and training its just built on food. Once he figures out that food means halter he will once again be off and not able to catch. Ive seen this a million times especially with ponies. Yes i use food as a REWARD not an inticement. Theres a huge difference there.

I have seen this method work on horses, ponies, minis. I dont think a welsh is so unusually smart that this wont work. Really if welshes are that smart it will work even quicker. He will figure out fast that being caught is a better place to be and she will have his respect.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No, I am not arguing either Kay- whatever works.

But Welsh really are unusually smart.

It is of course possible that this one is the exception!!

And the food is a reward not a bribe, it just gets the horses attention.

 

[Beccy]

Well we have never left him in a paddock alone, partly because he is such an escape artist that we are afraid of him either getting on the road or getting hung up in a fence trying to get to the others. So I have never tried to catch him with no other horses around, perhaps if he had no one but us two leggeds for company, that might work. Anyway, in the almost two years he has been here, neither treats nor ignoring him has worked. I agree he is smart, every time we think we have it figured out how to get him, he seems to know exactly what we are planning and be able to figure out how to avoid capture.

I don't know the heights for section A and B Jane, and to be truthful I have never measured either of those two, but they are not that tall. I will measure his dam tomorrow, there is very little difference in height between the two. I do know that the man who bought them from Sady's breeder years back (two owners ago), raises Welsh ponies not far from here, and having seen them I would say they are all quite a bit bigger than these two.

 

[jess]

We have a Welsh who is just like that....We tried the keeping him in a smaller area bit.....We tried food rewards......Heck we've tried everything.....The only thing that works 100% all the time is letting my five year old daughter catch him.....I bought Ziggy for her on her fourth birthday and he is HER pony. I can catch him once in a while but I usually just give Rachel a lead rope and she drapes it over his neck and leads him to me or now that shes a little stronger she halters him herself....He is so careful with her but quite the PITA with everyone else but we love him.....When he is in one of his moods nothing works for me not even his favorite treat marshmellows...But he always lets Rachel catch him. I've worked with several breeds of horses and ponies and having grown up with both a shetland and a welsh I have to agree that they are one of the smartest breeds and can be quite a pain when they want to be but you won't find a better breed for a child......Most of the welsh's I have known form very strong bonds with THEIR person and could really care less about the rest of the world.....

 

[Leeana]

I've been lucky enough to not yet have a problem with catching a horse. Kays way makes sense to me and i think it would bring results.

The thing i see going wrong with food is (for me at least) i would want the horse to do something because he wants to do it, not because hes doing it for food ..are you catching my drift here? I think when you bring food into the picture the horses focus is on the food, not you and i think that is the same for horses in general ..no matter what the breed. I have no experience with welsh's but i think that you gain the horses respect and attention (to you, not some other distraction like food) if the focus is on you.

 

[SunQuest]

I have had horses that you can't catch for anything. And by the time I have had them a month or two, almost all can be caught at any time.

I have found that food is one of the best ways to catch them. They come to me, and they get their food. If they don't, I feed it to someone else or take it back to the barn. (bucket training) No chasing. I gave up the chasing bit as it only worked for me when in a smaller area. If in a large 2 acre field, forget it as they know that I physically can't get to them to make them run.

What works the best for me is to do simple catch and release routines. Similar to what Jayne said. I ALWAYS give a treat for being caught on those that are hard to catch. What I do is catch the horse, feed it it's grain, and then immediately release the horse. I do this for a while. Sometimes I feed it in the pasture, other times I take them out and just brush them while they are eating the grain and then put them back. No working them at first and then later on do it randomly.

You see, most likely your horse has learned that being caught means always being worked. If you catch the horse, he will have to do something. He is a very smart animal and really doesn't want to be worked. He has learned that people won't go through all that effort just to catch him and then NOT work him. So you will have to play games and do catch and release more often to help with that.

I also have taught all of my horses to eat those hard starburst peppermint candies. The reasons I do so are many, but I find that once they learn that it tastes really good, and that the wrapper making noise means they are about to get a treat, they will do just about anything at the noise of the wrapper. Plus I can carry these in my pocket for an immediate reward.

Now with all of that said and all of the good ideas posted in the other replies, I have one more suggestion.

I had the pleasure of working with a "nervous" type of horse. He was never abused and we had him from the time he was a weanling. Koin was perfectly fine once he was caught, but a real pill to catch. Running this Arab didn't work as he would just get more difficult to catch if we did that. He didn't associate the pressure on pressure off thing the way that most horses did. He just knew that we were going to work his fanny off if we showed up in the pasture he was in. And food didn't always work well either. But we finally got into his head and figured it out.

You see, he was seeing us as a preditor and he was prey. Remember, we have eyes in front of our head and this makes us preditors in a prey animal's eyes. (Funny, but kids had no problem catching this horse! Maybe Koin understood that kids are not dangerous preditors!) Anyway, what we learned was that we would look the horse in the face and square off to him and then deliberately try to walk right up to him. Now he acted on the flight instinct and of course we would chase. Hummm. Sounds like a preditor prey situation happening.

So what we did was change our approach to him. First, we only looked at his feet. Like your horse, we knew he wasn't going to endanger us, so we gave him that trust. By looking down, you are not focussing on him and not making him feel that preditory pressure. Next, we didn't walk straight up to him by facing him and squaring off to him. What we did was align our bodies so that we were facing the opposite direction he was. In other words, our left side was next to his left side so we were parallel to him in "head to tail" fashion. Again, this removed the preditory pressure from him as our body was no longer a threat to him. Now we then kind of just sidepassed over to him. This way we kind of approached at an angle with no preditory pressure.

We found that any adult could catch this horse in this fashion, halter in hand or not, and was the only thing that worked 100% of the time. I have since learned that many horses respond to this approach instead of running them. Of course I do spend the extra time with these types of individuals to do lots of catch and release work. Sometimes they get a treat, other times they just get the halter put on, petted, and they turned loose. For me, the catch and release routines are a very important part of training on the hard to catch individual.

Of course nothing may cure him. You just may have to accept that he is the way he is. And sometimes just accepting that makes a difference as well. Koin was one that we learned to accept that he would never be an easy to catch horse using a "direct aproach". We learned to accept him as he was and "slide" up to him. After many years of owning him, we found a way to meet middle ground with him.

Keep trying, and don't give up on him.

 

[runamuk]

Your mares papers will say if she is section A or B and in welsh it isn't "just" height that determines the sections it has to do with the breeding behind them as well.

I don't think he likes the barn I honestly think he is a bit afraid of it. I also think he is so herdbound that he cannot be alone. Is there a way to pen him with a very very calm buddy? I have a gelding that I have used time and again to work with the "I won't be caught types". It helps alot as my gelding pushes in for the attention and actually tries to keep the other horse away, creating a kinda reverse psychology situation.

: when the fraidy makes an effort to see why I am so interesting they get a treat and then I go. I love welsh but they are so stinkin smart and I swear they are all psychic and can read your mind....so yes he knows exactly what your planning before you execute it

: :bgrin

I think he is just adorable so who is your mare? what are her lines? and where is her picture :bgrin :bgrin

Rori

Well we have never left him in a paddock alone, partly because he is such an escape artist that we are afraid of him either getting on the road or getting hung up in a fence trying to get to the others. So I have never tried to catch him with no other horses around, perhaps if he had no one but us two leggeds for company, that might work. Anyway, in the almost two years he has been here, neither treats nor ignoring him has worked. I agree he is smart, every time we think we have it figured out how to get him, he seems to know exactly what we are planning and be able to figure out how to avoid capture.

I don't know the heights for section A and B Jane, and to be truthful I have never measured either of those two, but they are not that tall. I will measure his dam tomorrow, there is very little difference in height between the two. I do know that the man who bought them from Sady's breeder years back (two owners ago), raises Welsh ponies not far from here, and having seen them I would say they are all quite a bit bigger than these two.