Inexperienced driver with green horse

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Miss Gracie

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I would appreciate any helpful advice on fitting my cart and harness properly. Gracie (4-years old) is only the second horse I've started in harness. The first horse I started in harness was a 12-year old riding horse about 16 years ago. Since my riding horse died a couple of years after harness training him I never gained much driving experience.

Graice is 33.5", I was wondering how much weight she should be able to pull. I feel like she is struggling to pull the cart with me in it.

Thank you,

Carol

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I can't see you in the photo but unless you are REALLY heavy a 33.5" horse should be able to pull you no problem even though your wooden cart is fairly heavy itself. Your harness fit and hitching seems fine from what I can see as it isn't a real closeup but the shafts are level or a bit tipped up and they are centered on what appears to be the point of draft. If your horse is struggling to pull it may be that your cart is not balanced properly. When you sit in the seat have someone feel under the saddle and see if it is pressing on her back inordinately. There should be no more than 5 to 10 pounds of weight pressing there if your cart is properly balanced. If there is more than that see if you can move your cart seat back on the cart. Please don't do too much longlining with her hitched to the cart, bad things can happen if she is frightened and bolts while hitched.
 
The breast piece doesn' t look like it's in the right spot, in my opinion.

I am not an expert like some on here, so don't go by me.

I believe it's easier for a horse to pull from the chest rather than the saddle, and it's kind of hard to see just where the breast piece is positioned.

You have a nice thick pad on it, which I do as well, because my guy doesn't like feeling the "slapping" movement on his chest on rough terrain.
 
I can't advise you on the harness or the cart, but I can contribute the fact that she will have to be conditioned for her new job. I don't know if you exercise her before/in addition to her training? That might go a long way to improving her strength and stamina. Also, start her out pulling you/your weight in the cart slowly, maybe only drive her for 10-15 minutes a day, and work up from that gradually. This will help to condition her and, eventually, it won't seem like such a "chore" for her as she builds muscle and strength in these new areas of her body that she is using for the first time.
 
how many times have you driven her with you in the cart? with some of the ones i've trained i've found they tend to not quite understand going forward and pulling from the chest the first few initial times and they tend to "struggle" with it until they understand "oh it's ok to push through the pressure on my chest" (even if you drag stuff before hand your weight is bound to be more than that...its often best to have someone give the horse a jump start by leading it into movement so it gets it). they do also need to be conditioned to pull a lot just like if you were to go out and pull the cart around.you could probably do it for a few minutes (i'm talking even a well balanced cart) but then get tired. You will probably also struggle to get it started until you figure out the feel and such. if you were to do it a lot or be in shape you'd be able to do it easier and longer. Remember most mini's dont' weigh a whole lot more than most humans so i figure it's "similar".
 
Thanks for the helpful advice everyone.

Lori...I'll certainly have a friend check the weight pressure under the saddle. I'm glad I asked for advice because I had never thought about that and it wasn't in any of the video's or dvd's I watched. One of the dvd's had longlining the horse in the cart, my first thought was "THAT IS NOT SAFE". I totally agree with you on longlining with the cart hitched.

Genie...I'm going to lower the breast collar a trace to see if that makes it a bit easier for Gracie. The breast collar is slightly higher than the breaching, in the video they did say it should be even with it.

Angela...Good advice, I know Gracie isn't conditioned well for her job. I've been ground driving her in cart for about 10 minutes then I jump in the cart for 10 minutes, I do this for about 30 minutes.

Boinky...So far I've driven Gracie 7 times with me in the cart. I'm going to work hard on getting my mini conditioned to pull, I'm sure this is probably most of the problem.

I'll keep you posted on her progress.

Thanks again! Carol
 
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Your breast collar might be a bit high but i think it's the big pad that gives that illusion honestly.
 
I really don't think your breastcollar is too high, the padding is making it appear higher than it is.

Green horses tend to raise their head and lunge into the harness to get the cart moving which makes the breastcollar tighten then loosen and kind of slap into them jerking them around. You need to encourage them to keep their head down to make it easier for them to push into the breastcollar by getting their weight onto their haunches allowing them to use their larger back muscles to push with.
 
Wooden wheels do tend to haul harder...and these ones are fairly small. I think a size larger would be easier for her to pull along, and would bring your shaves level. If your cart's axel will allow wire spoked pneumatic tires, I suggest you use them for regular hacking, and keep the wooden ones for show or more "formal" driving. Pneumatic wheels don't sink into the ground near as much as wooden ones do, making the cart much easier for the horse to pull along on rough or deep footing.
 
I would not recommend lowering the breast collar. There is a bundle of nerves that sit at the point of shoulder and if you lower your breast collar it looks like it will sit on that bundle of nerves, making her job harder.

One thing, because she is a little smaller, the single tree, where you attach the traces is a little high. Which makes it hard for her to pull well. There isn't much you can do about that, unless there is some way to attach it to the bottom of the shafts instead of the top. This is not likely possible.

One thing that I have found helps free the horse's shoulder is attaching the neck strap back to the water hook on the saddle. This helps relieve some pressure on the base of the neck, which will also help her pick her head up a little bit.

I would also recommend that you raise your breeching up a bit. One hole on each side to start. Where it sits now it could potentially sweep her hind feet out from under her if she stops suddenly. The breeching should sit at the biggest part of her rear end.

As for her struggling with you in the cart, she does need to be in shape, and learn to pull with her hind end and not her back. The way you do this is to drive, drive, drive! You ask her to move forward and never pull on her mouth when she does so. Always encourage forward movement. If she breaks gate, wait a few strides, then lightly ask her to shift into a downward transition. The lighter you are on her mouth, the better. What kind of bit are you using?

Does she have a check rein on?? It looks like she has a over check in the picture, but I can't really see. She has an awful lot of stuff on her face, which may be making her uncomfortable.

The most important thing is that the horse is comfortable. I do not drive green horses with a check rein and I prefer to never use an over check. If I do show, I'll use a side check. It's more comfortable for the horse, IMO.
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Hope this helps! Feel free to email me more pictures if you would like!
 
You've gotten some great advice here and since I still can't see the picture (viewing from work) I won't comment personally, but I did want to discuss a couple things Chamomile said. Overall her advice is excellent and quite accurate; I just want to make sure a couple points are clarified.

Chamomile said:
As for her struggling with you in the cart, she does need to be in shape, and learn to pull with her hind end and not her back. The way you do this is to drive, drive, drive!
Driving by itself is enough to condition her for pulling the cart. Learning to drive CORRECTLY, however, meaning she's pushing from her hindquarters instead of pulling with her chest, takes driving correctly for many many hours. Perfect practice makes perfect!

Chamomile said:
You ask her to move forward and never pull on her mouth when she does so. Always encourage forward movement. If she breaks gait, wait a few strides, then lightly ask her to shift into a downward transition. The lighter you are on her mouth, the better. What kind of bit are you using?
I don't disagree with Mindy here, but I'm concerned that many new drivers will take this to mean that you shouldn't touch your horse's mouth. I already see so many drivers slapping along like they're in a Western movie with their reins draped and the horse up there clueless, I'd hate to see any more!
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When you ride, the horse has your weight, seat, legs and reins to tell him what you plan to do. When you make a turn he feels your shift in weight as you look the way you plan to go, your seat hopefully lightens and collects him, and your leg gives the cue. He can afford to go on a loose rein because of all that other input and if he gets scared he knows you're right there with him through the feel of your body on his back and because he can see you. When you're driving your horse is up there all alone. He's got blinkers on so the only way he knows he's got someone he can trust with him is through your voice and your hands on the lines. It's important that you hold that connection with him through the reins, a constant soft contact that "holds his hand" and lets him know you're together. Mindy's right that you don't ever pull on his mouth, or yank him or otherwise break that trust. Lighter is better, but that's lighter as in more elastic, softer, gentler, smoother- not lighter as in less contact. As your horse gets used to holding correct contact he'll actually "follow the bit down" if you give him rein, seeking that friendly feel in his mouth.

With a green horse like yours, yes, by all means feed her some rein if she's reluctant to make an upward transition. However that is only a brief phase as she gets the idea that going forward is what you want. Once she understands that you should gradually come to hold a similar level of contact through the transition as you did at the walk and she'll learn to push up under herself and round into the frame you've built for her (always soft and yielding, not a brick wall she hits!) and she'll begin to move correctly and with more energy. It's like trying to chase a riding horse into a canter- they string out and sort of fall into the next gait quite roughly and with a complete lack of grace. If you collect the horse into your quiet hands and lift them into the canter with your seat and legs (or in this case voice) they will round up, elevate the forehand and step lightly into the next gait. This is not only much prettier, but much better for the horse's body and mind.

Mindy is absolutely right about how to handle a break in pace. Don't get hard and angry and snatch at the horse's mouth but instead handle it quietly and simply request firmly that she drop back to the previous gait and praise her when she does. When you don't make a big deal of it neither will the horse and she'll soon stop trying that as she comes to understand you want her to remain at the same pace. Remember also that a green horse will try to break pace both upward and downward when he or she is tired. They may try to break to a walk, but breaking to a canter is also a way of trying to give their muscles a break. Even experienced horses will do this in deep footing because a canter gives more of a lunging motion which helps drag the cart along. Watch out for this and if the horse starts breaking to a canter for a stride every couple of strides you should give him a break. Driving is hard work!

Genie said:
You have a nice thick pad on it, which I do as well, because my guy doesn't like feeling the "slapping" movement on his chest on rough terrain.
If your harness is adjusted correctly, the breastcollar should never slap the horse in any way. It should be constantly against his chest and swinging easily forward with the movement of the shoulder thanks to the singletree.

Gracie, just give your mare plenty of time to get used to the work you're asking of her. It will help if she's also being round-penned or lunged or treadmilled or otherwise conditioned outside of driving as then her wind and propulsive muscles will be getting stronger on their own instead of her body trying to deal with everything at once when she's in harness. Cross-training is very important!

Enjoy your driving.

Leia
 
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You've gotten some great advice here and since I still can't see the picture (viewing from work) I won't comment personally, but I did want to discuss a couple things Chamomile said. Overall her advice is excellent and quite accurate; I just want to make sure a couple points are clarified.

Chamomile said:
As for her struggling with you in the cart, she does need to be in shape, and learn to pull with her hind end and not her back. The way you do this is to drive, drive, drive!
Driving by itself is enough to condition her for pulling the cart. Learning to drive CORRECTLY, however, meaning she's pushing from her hindquarters instead of pulling with her chest, takes driving correctly for many many hours. Perfect practice makes perfect!

Chamomile said:
You ask her to move forward and never pull on her mouth when she does so. Always encourage forward movement. If she breaks gait, wait a few strides, then lightly ask her to shift into a downward transition. The lighter you are on her mouth, the better. What kind of bit are you using?
I don't disagree with Mindy here, but I'm concerned that many new drivers will take this to mean that you shouldn't touch your horse's mouth. I already see so many drivers slapping along like they're in a Western movie with their reins draped and the horse up there clueless, I'd hate to see any more!
default_new_shocked.gif


When you ride, the horse has your weight, seat, legs and reins to tell him what you plan to do. When you make a turn he feels your shift in weight as you look the way you plan to go, your seat hopefully lightens and collects him, and your leg gives the cue. He can afford to go on a loose rein because of all that other input and if he gets scared he knows you're right there with him through the feel of your body on his back and because he can see you. When you're driving your horse is up there all alone. He's got blinkers on so the only way he knows he's got someone he can trust with him is through your voice and your hands on the lines. It's important that you hold that connection with him through the reins, a constant soft contact that "holds his hand" and lets him know you're together. Mindy's right that you don't ever pull on his mouth, or yank him or otherwise break that trust. Lighter is better, but that's lighter as in more elastic, softer, gentler, smoother- not lighter as in less contact. As your horse gets used to holding correct contact he'll actually "follow the bit down" if you give him rein, seeking that friendly feel in his mouth.

With a green horse like yours, yes, by all means feed her some rein if she's reluctant to make an upward transition. However that is only a brief phase as she gets the idea that going forward is what you want. Once she understands that you should gradually come to hold a similar level of contact through the transition as you did at the walk and she'll learn to push up under herself and round into the frame you've built for her (always soft and yielding, not a brick wall she hits!) and she'll begin to move correctly and with more energy. It's like trying to chase a riding horse into a canter- they string out and sort of fall into the next gait quite roughly and with a complete lack of grace. If you collect the horse into your quiet hands and lift them into the canter with your seat and legs (or in this case voice) they will round up, elevate the forehand and step lightly into the next gait. This is not only much prettier, but much better for the horse's body and mind.

Mindy is absolutely right about how to handle a break in pace. Don't get hard and angry and snatch at the horse's mouth but instead handle it quietly and simply request firmly that she drops back to the previous gait and praise her when she does. When you don't make a big deal of it neither will the horse and she'll soon stop trying that as she comes to understand you want her to remain at the same pace. Remember also that a green horse will try to break pace both upward and downward when he or she is tired. They may try to break to a walk, but breaking to a canter is also a way of trying to give their muscles a break. Even experienced horses will do this in deep footing because a canter gives more of a lunging motion which helps drag the cart along. Watch out for this and if the horse starts breaking to a canter for a stride every couple of strides you should give him a break. Driving is hard work!

Genie said:
You have a nice thick pad on it, which I do as well, because my guy doesn't like feeling the "slapping" movement on his chest on rough terrain.
If your harness is adjusted correctly, the breastcollar should never slap the horse in any way. It should be constantly against his chest and swinging easily forward with the movement of the shoulder thanks to the singletree.

Gracie, just give your mare plenty of time to get used to the work you're asking of her. It will help if she's also being round-penned or lunged or treadmilled or otherwise conditioned outside of driving as then her wind and propulsive muscles will be getting stronger on their own instead of her body trying to deal with everything at once when she's in harness. Cross-training is very important!

Enjoy your driving.

Leia
When are you going to write a book!? I want to slap my money down on the counter now!
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I love to come across your posts; you are so intelligent and eloquent and I can visualize what you say because of how you say it. The horse industry needs reference writers like you.
 
Annabellarose said:
When are you going to write a book!? I want to slap my money down on the counter now!
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When I feel I can contribute something unique and worth reading!
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Right now the stuff I say is simply a combination of all the wonderful books I've been privileged to read and my own limited experience and I know if I wrote something now, in a few years I'd be wincing because I'd learned so much more since then. Maybe someday! Thanks for the compliment though.
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Leia
 
I'm just going to jump in here and make one comment. Your cart reminds me of one I tried on my filly in her first year of driving. She could pull it on flat level surface but in grass or an area with any footing, it was just too heavy. She was still struggling with learning how to pull and wasn't conditioned enough for a big wooden cart. No matter that they are balanced they are still heavier than a small show cart or even an easy entry cart. The wooden wheels add weight and don't turn as easily as the bike wheels.

If she's just starting and having trouble with it and you can't afford to get another cart, then you'll just have to work her (even on a lunge line out of harness) on a hillside to build up her muscles. When you work her in harness you can ask for her to work from the hind end but even lunging on a hill will develop those rear muscles. Ask for a nice trot up and down or a trot up and walk down (no cantering - that's cheating on her part).

Oh, jumping will help with rear impulsion and development also.
 
Hi,

I GREATLY appreciate the input from all of you. My little Gracie will certainly benefit from the information you all have shared. I'm going to start lunging her on the hill to build her rear end up. She knows how to jump over small barrels so I'll start doing that as well. I've noticed some improvements in the way she pulled this evening. I took the noseband off the bridle. I want to trade my over check in for a side check as soon as I can.

Can anyone recommend a few good driving books?

Since there is rain in Ohio's forecast I'm not sure when I'll get to drive Gracie next. I'll try to post a better pictures soon.

Thanks again!

Carol and Gracie
 
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If you do go to the bike wheels, use Kevlar. They don'tgo flat near as often as a regular tire. Oh yeh, nice little mare
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Hi Katiean...Thanks, I'll look into the Kevlar tires.

Thanks for the compliment on my mare. :)

Carol
 

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