How small is too small?

[Beccy]

We sold a very small horse awhile back, to a family that said they wanted a pet only. He is in a fantastic home, and is beautifully cared for, and I felt very good about the situation until yesterday. I was told they were looking for "equipment" for him, and asked what for, and was told a saddle for riding, and that they would also like to drive him.

This little horse is not even 30 inches, and is very fine boned, and is also only two years old. I told them he is too small to be ridden and driven, and she said that a woman who has a few minis that she knows, told her that kids up to 50 lbs could ride him. I told her this is not correct, and that had we known they wanted to ride and drive, we would not have sold them this particular horse. My husband and I were very clear about this from the start, that he wuld never be big enough for riding, and I personally would not drive a horse this small, though I know people who have done it.

She kept saying "really? Do you think he is too small?" because this woman has her convinced that it is ok. (The person who told her this btw, does not have a great reputation in the area. I have not met her personally, but my husband and a couple of people I know have, and though she has miniatures, she is not as knowledgable as she thinks she is. We have seen a photograph of a child riding one of her miniatures, who I believe was under 30, and it really bothered us)

In the end they said they will not ride and drive this wee horse, but I still had the feeling they did not believe me that he is too small. I would doubt this horse is more than 180 lbs, and a 50lb child would be over a quarter of his weight!!! They said they wondered why they couldn't find equipment small enough!

I definitely believe he is too small for riding, but wondered how small people will go for driving? I personally would not use a horse this small, but I am not an expert and told her this. I also suggested that she join LB and ask any questions here, as she would have the benefit of the wealth of experience that the board members have.

So how small is too small?

 

[Leeana]

This how you figure it out for Horses ..i dont know how it works for minis but i guess it would be the same way for them since we also use this to figure how much we can carry on our backs.

(Horses Weight) times (.22)= how much it can carry

But you also have to take into consideration bone size ..muscle ext.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

That gives you a riding weight of 39lbs- which is too heavy IMO. I sold a mare on non breeding terms- she had lost two foals- her only two, and was 30" if you stretched her. I got a call from some people a little while back from the person who had bought both horses I placed in this "forever" home (with a strict "option to buy" clause) She wanted to know about suitable stallions and where to get driving gear!!!!! I went a little ballistic. When I calmed down I explained the situation to her "Oh Yes but we were told to use a smaller stallion" "YES.... and you think you can find smaller than 28 "???" "OH!!" THAT she had NOT been told. OK, so no breeding!!! About driving. No- she's too small (this mare was too small irrespective of how small people do actually drive them) "Oh but I was told she was very strong" Started to get a bit cross then- so it's OK for her to work her guts out trying to get you lot up a hill because she's strong?? Is she conditioned?? "Duh??" Have you been working her slowly up to the work, lungeing, long reining etc?? No, she's a Shetland she should be strong enough!! NO she is NOT a Shetland!! NO she is NOT strong enough. They then wanted to know where the papers for the gelding they bought were, as I bred him. He has luxating patellas- has he been operated on?? No it's not necessary!! Well, I would NEVER have sold to these people, but it taught me a lesson. NEVER sell a horse without a words of one syllable contract. I gave the gelding to the first owner on the understanding she had him operated on. She SOLD him to the next owner and never said a word. I failed to buy the two back- she obviously paid a lot of money for them, but, at least she has no papers for the gelding. The mare is probably dead by now. CONTRACT!!! You NEVER know what people will do. Since this is done, just send them a letter saying again how you feel and maybe even adding that you would not have sold them the colt if you had thought they would do this. And then, I'm afraid, put it out of your mind. There is nothing you can do, and you will only make an enemy.

 

[Leeana]

some ppl say your times it by 20 and some by 25 so i took what was close to the middle. 22. But like i said just take all that you know about the way the horse is built ...39 pounds does sound like allot. I personally wouldnt let anyone ride my mini if i had a bad feeling about it and he is 31inches. I have little Nephews that around 2-3 years old that i let on coco ..but he is built very well.

 

[Beccy]

Oh dear Jayne, that must have been awful for you!

You know it never entered my head to include something like size insuitability for riding and driving in the contract, but then we thought we had been clear enough at the time of the sale that he was not ever going to be big enough for that...

We did sell him on a gelding contract, and they have had him gelded. I must stress again that he is very well loved and cared for, and it is not really them I am upset with, although I want them to understand all this, it is the "mini person" who told them that 50 lb children could be riding this tiny 2yo!!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Then go back and talk to them personally, over a cup of coffee- and tell them ALL your concerns, including those about the person who gave them the advice. Point out that, even were the little chap suitable for riding he is too young and, by the time he is old enough their child will be WAY too big!! Tell them, even, that he could do with a companion and you would be happy to help find them a riding pony!!! Rescue board, here we come!! If these are decent people, they will listen. I still have nightmares about my sweet mare- if only I had kept her!! From that day on- if I could not keep it I had it put down. Sound harsh?? How does it harm a horse to be quietly PTS in my arms on it's own field. Better than being flogged up a hill in a cart with tow people (YES two!) in it, I would say.

Oh and please may I have the foal in your Avatar??

 

[Beccy]

Actually I am going to be seeing them this coming week Jayne, they are coming for a visit and to pick up the registration papers since he is now a gelding, so we will have a talk with them. She actually already knows how I feel about this other person, and that she is not an authority on miniatures.

I do have to say that even if it does sound harsh to some, I too would choose having certain horses put to sleep over placing them out if I was unable to keep them. Little Cherokee, our filly who is dragging her hind legs, is an example. If she recovers enough to live a decent life, she will stay with us, but we already have a well intentioned friend who is convinced that even if she can only get around dragging her hind end, she could still go live with him. Ahhhh, NO! If she can not walk, I will not be sending her somewhere to develop back pain and arthritis, and have no control over what is done to her. If she can not live here comfortably, she will go to sleep.

The colt in my Avatar is Trehernes Dark Side of the Moon, and he is sold, waaaahhhh

He is going to a lady who travels to Florida part of the year, and takes some of her dressage horses with her, so Moon might get a vacation in FL this winter! Wonder if I could tell her he and I come as a package!?

 

[Beccy]

BUMP...

...sorry, would still like to know what everyone considers too small for driving. I guess what I am after here is confirmation that I am not being unreasonable in telling this family that he is too small to be doing this kind of work. Riding I am convinced is out of the question for him, but how small are the smallest horses that people drive? At his age I know it would be harmful, but is a mature fine boned 28.00" horse suitable to pull a cart or a toboggan? I think it is still too small, but want to know if this is just me being unreasonable.

 

[Minimor]

If it were me, I wouldn't be comfortable driving anything smaller than 32". I can't say that a horse under 32" is too small to drive, but I (quite slim, but tall at 5'8") would personally feel silly (and look!) silly riding in a cart behind a horse that small.

I know I've had more than one person--friends usually, after we tell them we now have Minis and are going to be driving them a lot--say that they've been at some show where they've seen a Mini being driven; and they thought it looked ridiculous to see a little wee horse pulling some great big person. In at least one case the person said it looked downright mean to expect such a little horse to pull so much weight.

I know there are people that drive 28-30" horses, and I guess it does depend on a couple things--size/weight of the driver, fit of the cart & harness, and where they're being driven. If a 30" horse is being driven by a child on a relatively smooth surface, like in a nice arena or down a packed dirt road, that would be okay to me. If that same horse was being asked to pull a heavy adult in heavy going, or with a lot of up/down hill, or for extended periods of time, then no....

Our Scooter is currently just under 33"; he's just 2 years old this year and is very fine & slight--he'll be fine & slight at maturity. He's one I might drive in the show ring and in the grass training area at home, but he isn't one I'll be taking down the road for a longer drive, nor will he ever be one to pull the chore sled. Silver, our 3 yr old 33" gelding is a much stouter boy--he would pull more, but still isn't one we'll drive a lot, I'm sure, unless as part of a team; he will be able to pull the chore sled, but even then, 35" Dusty is going to be able to do that so much easier...

 

[Marty]

Beccy I"m not a fighter and I don't like to make waves with anyone. Heck, I cry over spilled milk. (no pun intended)

If there is a peacable way to do things, that is the road I would choose every time.

The way I see this is that you have a great chance at putting a stop to all of this when you next see this lady.

I would like to suggest to you that you do as much research as you can about this subject. I would like you to assemble this information in one of those little folders with holders on each side in it.

On one side, I would like you to have information about riding these little ones or what happens to them when being forced to drive/ride when they are way too tiny, and young. You can include informaton on thing such as luxation patellas, stifle problems, excessive weight straining tension on muscles and lameness. etc. The sky is the limit. You can use big horse information for some of this as well.

On the other side, print out some pictures if you can find any to help you make your point. VISUAL AIDES! Works every time. Seeing is believing.

Vet statements are always a help.

Research, reseach, research.......use some testimonials that you can get from right here on the forum too.

This way, you are arming yourself with FACT and ammunition that cannot be disputed by the other lady that doesn't know squat. Make this lady not only AWARE but arm her as well with KNOWLEDGE so she can go back and face this other woman INTELLIGENTLY with your research.

This is just so important, to heck with the lousy cup of coffee......make them a full blown dinner!

That will buy you plenty of time to go over all the notes you have prepared.

If they really want the kid to ride that bad, suggest an older nicely trained pony.

 

[Beccy]

I did email them a bit of information yesterday Marty, and she has not replied (which may just mean she has not looked at her email yet) so I am sitting here wondering if possibly she thinks that I don't know what I am talking about!

They have full sized horses and a mid size pony, and we always recommend a well schooled pony for riding over miniatures, partly because as a child grows a pony will suit them for awhile longer, and there is less temptation to allow a child who is getting heavier, to continue riding a horse they may love, but have outgrown.

I agree that this is important, and they are very reasonable people, I just think this other woman has them convinced.

They are concerned about him having a bit of a tummy, and think he should work some of it off, and we suggested perhaps a set of trotting poles, and later on a course of small jumps that the kids can run through with him.

 

[Crossbuck Farms]

THis is Flying A's Cheer Em Up Charlie. He is 37" mini gelding. He's very stout. He rides children in our biz upto 70lb.

 

[horsehug]

Hi Beccy,

My stallions Spicy and Rambo, are my two who are trained to drive are 29.5" and 30.5". Neither of them have ANY problem or are stressed at all driving. And I have given lots of kids rides or other adults also. Spicy the smaller one is VERY hard to tire out!

So in my opinion while they are definitely too small to be ridden unless by 1 year olds...... they are Great for driving.

I prefer smaller driving horses

Susan O.

 

[justaboutgeese]

How small is to small is a loaded question. IMO I have four 32 to 33 inch horses who drive down the roads and get many miles put on them. I have seen horses as small as 27 inches driven in a ring and around a paved parking area. Those smaller horses on good footing could pull a "reasonable load" well for a short distance or in a show ring. Would I hook one for a long jaunt down the road as the bigger ones are able to do ? definatly not. If a person wants to use them for that they should be leaning towards the larger A or B minis.

 

[Marty]

We are talking here about a two year old colt, right?

 

[Beccy]

Yes Marty he is only two, and very fine boned.

Dazzler I would not have any qualms about putting kids on a 37.00" horse either, but this guy will never be anywhere near that big.

justaboutgeese, I agree with you about smaller horses pulling "a reasonable load good footing", but where this horse is there is no level ground. They have trails and a short fairly sloping driveway, He would be expected to pull on trails or uneven turf I am sure.