Proposals must be submitted by July 1st to make it to Convention 2008 in November. They will be voted on at Convention. If it passes it will go into effect in 2010, unless the Board says otherwise.
How many of you would support a Rule Change Proposal?
- Thread starter skanzler
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Proposals must be submitted by July 1st to make it to Convention 2008 in November. They will be voted on at Convention. If it passes it will go into effect in 2010, unless the Board says otherwise.
Ok i guess there is a fine line here.. Many many people tie horses even at home in tie stalls overnight. I myself have even done it with my horses. I do think that sounds aweful that the horse is tied so short that it cannot do anything. and they are always either pastured or exercised daily when in a situation like that. All mine are tied with enough lead to be able to put their head to the ground, which means it's also able to lay down. if your worried about entanglement rig up the rope so that it is a pully system with weight on the opposite end so when the horse stands the rope tightens up and when the horse lays down or puts it's head down the rope extends. As for shavings eating you could still tie the horse long enough so it could touch the ground but brush the shavings back under the horse more where the horse can't reach it or put rubber matts under that particular horse. I do think tying it very short over a long period of time is not a nice thing and that person should really rethink that wisdom.....but i also don't see how a rule such as that could be worded to enforce it.
tinacvt
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I am all for not tying them so they can't lay down. I didn't know this was practiced at mini shows it is the norm for big horses, they are tied high overnite so they are tired the next day and show better in under saddle classes.
Minimor
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I don't believe in having a horse tied so short that he cannot lie down, & leaving him that way 24/7 for the duration of the show, but I think wording a rule against this will be difficult to do, or at least difficult to enforce. You will for sure have to differentiate between the horses that are tied this way 24/7 and those that are tied this way while waiting for an upcoming class.
If you are suggesting that horses shouldn't be tied at all, that will never fly. Around here we still have barns with things called tie stalls. You see them in use at boarding barns, training barns and every horse show. At the biggest shows there will be horses using tie stalls. These horses are comfortable, tied long enough to eat, drink and lie down. It's rare to see a properly tied horse tangled in his rope. I do shudder when I see some that are tied way too long, and there are always one or two of those in any show barn.
Yeah, some big horse trainers do believe in tying a horse with its head up high & leaving it for hours to tire it out--something I have no use for--but that sort of abuse is quite different from a horse being properly tied in a stall.
If you are suggesting that horses shouldn't be tied at all, that will never fly. Around here we still have barns with things called tie stalls. You see them in use at boarding barns, training barns and every horse show. At the biggest shows there will be horses using tie stalls. These horses are comfortable, tied long enough to eat, drink and lie down. It's rare to see a properly tied horse tangled in his rope. I do shudder when I see some that are tied way too long, and there are always one or two of those in any show barn.
Yeah, some big horse trainers do believe in tying a horse with its head up high & leaving it for hours to tire it out--something I have no use for--but that sort of abuse is quite different from a horse being properly tied in a stall.
hobbyhorse23
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I'm assuming you mean stock horses. Light horse breeds usually want as much snort and blow as possible!
OH!Leia
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Erica
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I'm sorry but I just treat my horses as I would like to be treated if I were in their shoes......my horses are only tied at home for an hour after workouts/cooldown for learning patience, and then they are tied in between classes if it's a long enough break, but not too long. Several times especially at Nationals I have enough time to dress the horse and give them an hour break before I have to get them out; sometimes at the local shows it's so crazy I don't even have time to tie them I just have to hand them to someone to hold as there is not enough time to make it back to the stalls, showing 10 horses yourself things tend to be chaotic at times.
There is no way I'd tie a horse up overnight in my barn - jmo
There is no way I'd tie a horse up overnight in my barn - jmo
Well everyone that has posted have good points. Whether they agree with my original post or not.
Yes I understand that the wording on this rule would need considerable thought. Yes I know that it might be difficult at first to regulate. But come on folks. We are talking about living breathing animals. These horses give us 110%. They have given up thier basic instincts and what they would love to be, to benefit us. How can we not at least try to give them a better life.
OK many have said "well they probably do it at home", does that make it right. Does that mean that we have to watch as these horses are put through the stress of being hauled to a strange environment, pressured to show and then not even give them the courtesy of being able to lye down to rest, or walk around and stretch thier legs?
No I am not saying, nor did I say that horses could not be tied for a short amount of time. And I think that any good show manager with any common sense can see that a horse has been tied for more than a reasonable amount of time. And to me a reasonable amount of time is one hour. After that the horse should be allowed to be loose in it's stall. If you are too lazy to reblanket your horse between long stretches of time, then you need to rethink your time management at shows.
I have usually 10-15 horses at a show and mine never stand tied in their stalls for more that 30-40 minutes. As Erica said, sometimes it is difficult to run the horses back and forth, but if you need help then either hire it or find someone that is willing to help. If you can't do it then rethink the amount of horses you either take into training or that you personally take to a show. Why should the horse pay the price.
Our horses travel for 2 1/2 days to get to Nationals. They must stand for long periods of time on the trailer, but we stop every hour, not only for them, but for us to take a break. We stop and offer either food or water or both. We check each horse on the trailer to make sure that they are as comfortable as possible. We off load each night and put them into a comfortable stall so that they can relax before being placed back on the trailer. The trailer is cleaned and rebeded each day. When we arrive at the show, the first thing we do is check the horses and offer water. We then get to work bedding the stalls and getting the water buckets in. The horses are off loaded and placed in their stalls. To roll, relax or sleep. They are left alone to just be horses for the day. The next day we start clipping and bathing. But they are never tied to prevent them from getting dirty. That is what a bath is for. If they have an early morning class we bath that evening and sleezy and blanket them. They are released into their stall to relax for the night. If they have shaving in their manes and tail the next morning we brush them out. If someone with white legs layed in the only pile of poop in the entire stall, we have arrived early enough, not 10 minutes before first call, we take them to the bathing rack and wash the poop off.... Time management and good horse care practice. It is not rocket science.
As for eating shavings, there are a couple of simple solutions.....Either retire that horse to pasture and don't show it, if it is that high a mantainence, as you stated. Or buy an inexpensive muzzle and place it on the horse during down times. Replacing a muzzle or leaving them out to be a horse, breeding stallion or broodmare would be much better than loosing them to a unfortunate accident.
Horses will be horses and just because it has never happened to you, don't think that it won't. There may come a time that you will lose one of your horses to an accident. And it happens very quickly. It is heartbreaking. Take it from someone that knows. And she was only tied for about 5 minutes. And yes I was in the barn, only about 100 feet away. And yes she was tied safely.
This original post was to get ideas on a possible rule that could be put into place to regulate horses being tied for long periods of time. Not to regulate whether they could be tied at all.
This person, by the way, was told the minute I saw that the horse was down. He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh, I am sure he is fine. He did go down and get the horse up. I have heard that his practices at home are no better. But that does not mean that we should stand by and watch it happen. If no one says anything and no one will stand up and say that this is not the way an animal, any animal should be treated then when will it end, and where will it stop. The next thing you know we will say keeping water from them for 24 hours gives them that night tight look. No, it is called dehydration, but hey it got me a blue ribbon...... Yeah that makes sense.
Yes I understand that the wording on this rule would need considerable thought. Yes I know that it might be difficult at first to regulate. But come on folks. We are talking about living breathing animals. These horses give us 110%. They have given up thier basic instincts and what they would love to be, to benefit us. How can we not at least try to give them a better life.
OK many have said "well they probably do it at home", does that make it right. Does that mean that we have to watch as these horses are put through the stress of being hauled to a strange environment, pressured to show and then not even give them the courtesy of being able to lye down to rest, or walk around and stretch thier legs?
No I am not saying, nor did I say that horses could not be tied for a short amount of time. And I think that any good show manager with any common sense can see that a horse has been tied for more than a reasonable amount of time. And to me a reasonable amount of time is one hour. After that the horse should be allowed to be loose in it's stall. If you are too lazy to reblanket your horse between long stretches of time, then you need to rethink your time management at shows.
I have usually 10-15 horses at a show and mine never stand tied in their stalls for more that 30-40 minutes. As Erica said, sometimes it is difficult to run the horses back and forth, but if you need help then either hire it or find someone that is willing to help. If you can't do it then rethink the amount of horses you either take into training or that you personally take to a show. Why should the horse pay the price.
Our horses travel for 2 1/2 days to get to Nationals. They must stand for long periods of time on the trailer, but we stop every hour, not only for them, but for us to take a break. We stop and offer either food or water or both. We check each horse on the trailer to make sure that they are as comfortable as possible. We off load each night and put them into a comfortable stall so that they can relax before being placed back on the trailer. The trailer is cleaned and rebeded each day. When we arrive at the show, the first thing we do is check the horses and offer water. We then get to work bedding the stalls and getting the water buckets in. The horses are off loaded and placed in their stalls. To roll, relax or sleep. They are left alone to just be horses for the day. The next day we start clipping and bathing. But they are never tied to prevent them from getting dirty. That is what a bath is for. If they have an early morning class we bath that evening and sleezy and blanket them. They are released into their stall to relax for the night. If they have shaving in their manes and tail the next morning we brush them out. If someone with white legs layed in the only pile of poop in the entire stall, we have arrived early enough, not 10 minutes before first call, we take them to the bathing rack and wash the poop off.... Time management and good horse care practice. It is not rocket science.
As for eating shavings, there are a couple of simple solutions.....Either retire that horse to pasture and don't show it, if it is that high a mantainence, as you stated. Or buy an inexpensive muzzle and place it on the horse during down times. Replacing a muzzle or leaving them out to be a horse, breeding stallion or broodmare would be much better than loosing them to a unfortunate accident.
Horses will be horses and just because it has never happened to you, don't think that it won't. There may come a time that you will lose one of your horses to an accident. And it happens very quickly. It is heartbreaking. Take it from someone that knows. And she was only tied for about 5 minutes. And yes I was in the barn, only about 100 feet away. And yes she was tied safely.
This original post was to get ideas on a possible rule that could be put into place to regulate horses being tied for long periods of time. Not to regulate whether they could be tied at all.
This person, by the way, was told the minute I saw that the horse was down. He just shrugged his shoulders and said oh, I am sure he is fine. He did go down and get the horse up. I have heard that his practices at home are no better. But that does not mean that we should stand by and watch it happen. If no one says anything and no one will stand up and say that this is not the way an animal, any animal should be treated then when will it end, and where will it stop. The next thing you know we will say keeping water from them for 24 hours gives them that night tight look. No, it is called dehydration, but hey it got me a blue ribbon...... Yeah that makes sense.
Katiean
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IMO If you make a rule like this, you are forcing YOUR view on everyone. This is not like saying "you must supply food and water" You are trying to dictate to everyone the way they will handle their horses. I feel this is NOT something that would pass as what they are doing does not "HURT" the horse. If you don't like the horses being tied like that "Walk Away". Owners have the RIGHT to tie or not at their discretion.
Millstone Farm
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I would never ever tie a horse and leave him unattended. Perhaps you could word you rule proposal that way? A horse can injure himself in a flash, and I just can't imagine taking that risk.
The only times my horses are tied is after w orkout or when I am clipping or grooming them. Ot if a horse is sharing a stall with a buddy, they will be tied so the quicker eater doesn't share his friend's food. But I am always right there.
The hunter/jumper barn I grew up in had standing stalls, but the horses could lie down (and did all the time). The were tied, but had a butt bar behind them. I wouldn't advocate that now, but it seemed to work for the school horses who were used to it.
I can't imagine intentionally tying a horse overnight so it would be tired for its classes the next day...
The only times my horses are tied is after w orkout or when I am clipping or grooming them. Ot if a horse is sharing a stall with a buddy, they will be tied so the quicker eater doesn't share his friend's food. But I am always right there.
The hunter/jumper barn I grew up in had standing stalls, but the horses could lie down (and did all the time). The were tied, but had a butt bar behind them. I wouldn't advocate that now, but it seemed to work for the school horses who were used to it.
I can't imagine intentionally tying a horse overnight so it would be tired for its classes the next day...
Cathy_H
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I haven't read all of the comments so I don't know if this has been mentioned or not but if there is such a rule then these exhibitors will find a way around it ----- such as putting drapes all around the stalls so that you cannot see inside to determine what or how they have their horse situated......... I don't think tying for a short while is bad but I would not want my horse tied for the length of the show especially at night.
wpsellwood
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Well I believe that is cruel to leave any horse tied for days. But I also think its cruel not to have any shavings in the stalls and they are on pavement or cement. Just enought to cover the pee spot. Are there going to be rules stated that we need x amount bags of shavings. How about dirty waters Im at Worlds and nationals and see filthy dirty buckets but thats ok. How safe is it to leave a halter and muzzle on a horse?? My friends mini hung itself. Couldnt get much crueler then that. I never leave halters on. How about the 2 per stall rule, I think its cruel when one is horse is constantly getting picked on by the other. Most dont seem too. So I see lots of things that go on that I think is cruel in my mind but Im not going to go around making rule proposals for every thing that comes up. Everyone has different ideas on whats cruel or not.
Katiean, the rules of an association ARE ALL "someone's views," namely, those who voted on them. skanzler is only trying to get a feel for what some members here may think about this proposal. Obviously everyone has a right to do whatever with their animals, but when you bring them from your home to an association show, you must follow the rules set forth by the governing board as well as those of the grounds. Making a rule like this within the AMHA or AMHR and enforcing it would be no more complicated than other rules already in place for show animals, such as not leaving driving horses hitched up and tied. Obviously some people may tie their horses up hitched all the time at home, and some may still get away with it at shows even with the rule in place to prevent it, but at least when someone sees it they can do something about it should the owner decide not to.
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disneyhorse
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I don't agree with tying a horse for an extended period of time with no option of laying down.
I am QUITE familiar with "tie stalls" (stand stalls, whatever you want to call them) because I have a background with draft horses. Draft horses often are kept in tie stalls, particularly in the midwest and Canada, because of the increased ease in husbandry and bedding conservation.
In a true tie stall, the horse often has a manger with food and water in front of it, and the stall is deeply bedded so the animal can lie down at will. The horse is tied at such a length that the horse can lie down and put it's nose down and rest it's head.
I agree with Mininik... when you show, you show under the Association's rules. A trainer may use "action aids" at home on their miniatures to increase action but are forbidden to do so on show grounds. Many people may find this cruel, but the Association has chosen to not use these methods to represent their breed on public grounds.
At a horse show, it is not only exhibitors that may be cruising around on the show grounds. Any person of any background may be at the show to gain an interest in the breed. The purpose of the breed is to PROMOTE IT in a positive light. What would YOUR first impression of the breed have been if you went to a show and saw the miniature horses with chains on their feet, tied up too short after classes had ended hanging themselves off the walls of the stalls trying desperately to sleep, or other methods of "best advantage showing" going on in the barns?
I think somewhere to START with this rule, if you wanted to go ahead with it Skanzler, would be that no horses could be tied one hour after the last class of the day had ended, and tying could resume two hours before the first class of the day is scheduled to begin. This would allow a horse at a multiple-day show at least the opportunity to lay flat out and sleep during the night.
I have been to horse shows where I showed my miniatures out of my trailer... classes started at 8am and the last class ended after 10pm and my horses were tied the entire time... even yearlings. Sometimes tying is a necessity, but it should not be EXCESSIVE.
Stalls are provided so horses can be free to lay down and sleep. Otherwise you could just get a tack stall and tie all of your horses in the aisle for the whole week. It's hard enough on the horses to have had to stand in the trailer for up to DAYS just to get to the show, and look forward to MORE DAYS to get home from the show. It is stressful on horses to show, and we should make every effort to be humane and fair to the animals that we are using.
Andrea
I am QUITE familiar with "tie stalls" (stand stalls, whatever you want to call them) because I have a background with draft horses. Draft horses often are kept in tie stalls, particularly in the midwest and Canada, because of the increased ease in husbandry and bedding conservation.
In a true tie stall, the horse often has a manger with food and water in front of it, and the stall is deeply bedded so the animal can lie down at will. The horse is tied at such a length that the horse can lie down and put it's nose down and rest it's head.
I agree with Mininik... when you show, you show under the Association's rules. A trainer may use "action aids" at home on their miniatures to increase action but are forbidden to do so on show grounds. Many people may find this cruel, but the Association has chosen to not use these methods to represent their breed on public grounds.
At a horse show, it is not only exhibitors that may be cruising around on the show grounds. Any person of any background may be at the show to gain an interest in the breed. The purpose of the breed is to PROMOTE IT in a positive light. What would YOUR first impression of the breed have been if you went to a show and saw the miniature horses with chains on their feet, tied up too short after classes had ended hanging themselves off the walls of the stalls trying desperately to sleep, or other methods of "best advantage showing" going on in the barns?
I think somewhere to START with this rule, if you wanted to go ahead with it Skanzler, would be that no horses could be tied one hour after the last class of the day had ended, and tying could resume two hours before the first class of the day is scheduled to begin. This would allow a horse at a multiple-day show at least the opportunity to lay flat out and sleep during the night.
I have been to horse shows where I showed my miniatures out of my trailer... classes started at 8am and the last class ended after 10pm and my horses were tied the entire time... even yearlings. Sometimes tying is a necessity, but it should not be EXCESSIVE.
Stalls are provided so horses can be free to lay down and sleep. Otherwise you could just get a tack stall and tie all of your horses in the aisle for the whole week. It's hard enough on the horses to have had to stand in the trailer for up to DAYS just to get to the show, and look forward to MORE DAYS to get home from the show. It is stressful on horses to show, and we should make every effort to be humane and fair to the animals that we are using.
Andrea
disneyhorse
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Also, I did want to add...
BWminis... I also bought a horse from this person but the horse didn't have a problem "hoovering" shavings or other things. My friend bought several ponies from them and I don't think she's mentioned a problem with shavings, either.
Muzzles would certainly reduce the amount of shavings the horse could ingest. And yes, some horses ARE too "high maintenance" to show. Not all horses make great show horses not matter how pretty they are or how amazing they move. Show horses ARE high maintenance anyway!
Andrea
BWminis... I also bought a horse from this person but the horse didn't have a problem "hoovering" shavings or other things. My friend bought several ponies from them and I don't think she's mentioned a problem with shavings, either.
Muzzles would certainly reduce the amount of shavings the horse could ingest. And yes, some horses ARE too "high maintenance" to show. Not all horses make great show horses not matter how pretty they are or how amazing they move. Show horses ARE high maintenance anyway!
Andrea
Andrea thank you for your thoughts on this topic. Your suggestion is an excellent place to start. Anyone that is interested in submitting written input can certainly PM me. I can use everyones input on this.
I think many of you understand what I am getting at with this. It isn't about telling people what they can or can't do with thier horses. It is looking out for the welfare of our horses. Those of you that feel that this rule is an injustice to owners and trainers, thank you for your input too. All I can say to those individuals is, I would hate to be your horse. If you would "just walk away" from a horse in distress, you don't deserve to own one of these exquisite animals.
Yes I see plenty of cruelty at shows, in many forms, both to animals and humans alike. And no I don't proclaim to have answers to all the problems, but this is one that I don't feel I can walk away from. If one person drops a stone into a pool the ripple will grow..... If I can prevent one horse from being injured or possibly killed by this practice then I will push for this rule.
All of us seem to be so afraid to rub someone wrong with these types of things. This is not an insult to anyone, this is not slandering anyone, this is not forcing someone to do something that is illegal or inappropriate. This is being done for the benefit of the horses that we all say we love.
Do you think the people to that do this and other things worry about how you feel or what you think of them? If they did they would hide these things not put it out there for everyone to see. They obviously feel that if you don't like it "walk away".
I think many of you understand what I am getting at with this. It isn't about telling people what they can or can't do with thier horses. It is looking out for the welfare of our horses. Those of you that feel that this rule is an injustice to owners and trainers, thank you for your input too. All I can say to those individuals is, I would hate to be your horse. If you would "just walk away" from a horse in distress, you don't deserve to own one of these exquisite animals.
Yes I see plenty of cruelty at shows, in many forms, both to animals and humans alike. And no I don't proclaim to have answers to all the problems, but this is one that I don't feel I can walk away from. If one person drops a stone into a pool the ripple will grow..... If I can prevent one horse from being injured or possibly killed by this practice then I will push for this rule.
All of us seem to be so afraid to rub someone wrong with these types of things. This is not an insult to anyone, this is not slandering anyone, this is not forcing someone to do something that is illegal or inappropriate. This is being done for the benefit of the horses that we all say we love.
Do you think the people to that do this and other things worry about how you feel or what you think of them? If they did they would hide these things not put it out there for everyone to see. They obviously feel that if you don't like it "walk away".
Minimor
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Andrea's suggestion is a good one, and might work. Specifying a time when tying must stop and then may start again is enforceable. Making a rule which states no horse may be tied for more than one hour would be very hard to enforce, because who is going to go around noting times? If you see a horse tied, then return two hours later and he is still tied, how do you know he's been tied there the entire time? He could have been taken away, shown, watered & then put back--you may be sure he has stood there the entire two hours, but it's difficult to prove.
hobbyhorse23
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I think that's an excellent suggestion, especially if you add the caveat that they can't be tied unattended in their stalls after those hours. The intention after all is to prevent people from leaving their horses tied overnight, not to keep people from grooming after hours.
That is what I'd been thinking. Of course there are times when everyone knows the person did NOT move the horse, but how do you prove it? And you'd have to be able to or innocent people would get nailed instead. Much better to have a clear rule than something that allows the violator to say "prove it" and then laugh in your face when you can't do anything in spite of the new rule. Where does it end, video cameras in all the barns and Show Police?
SKanzler, I can see that you feel very strongly on this topic and I appreciate what you are trying to do for the horses. I'm getting a little tired however of being told that if we're not 100% behind a rule that we are cruel owners or too lazy to dress our horses or otherwise evil. When I'm at a CDE Kody spends most of the day tied to the trailer under supervision on a long enough lead to graze. Would I rather he were out in a paddock somewhere? Sure! But in that case tying him outside in the fresh air is preferable to putting him in a dusty, dark, boring stall where he can't see out. Am I being cruel? I don't think so. Kody prances all the way to the trailer and drags his feet all the way back to the barn. When I haul I don't stop every hour as you do. I don't do that because it is my belief that it is easier on the horse to go for a couple of hours at a stretch than to be interrupted constantly and get their hopes up that it is time to leave the trailer. I base this on studies I have read and my own personal experience with a horse whose welfare and happiness means everything to me. Anyone who knows me knows I would never ask Kody to do anything I wouldn't myself. So am I evil because I make him stand there for two or three hours? I hope not!
I guess my point is that while you are right that some things simply are not relative, they are WRONG, the attempt to write a specific rule for each and every one of them can cause more problems than it solves. I agree with whomever said to EDUCATE, not legislate. Are a lot of these people going to listen? No, of course not. As someone else said if they thought they were doing something wrong they'd hide it or stop doing it. But perhaps the weight of combined disapproval from all those educated individuals around them will convince them to change. It will at least prevent someone else from thinking it's a good idea and following suit! I believe the existing show rules against cruelty should apply to a situation like this or be reworded so the show officials have the power to insist on a change in the animal's condition or risk expulsion from the show. Muzzle them and turn them loose, or gosh forbid this fellow should realize that it is not normal for adult horses to put everything they see in their mouths and look at what management practices he uses at home to cause this psychosis. I believe in children it's called "picca" and it is not healthy! Perhaps the show veterinary could be called in to assess whether the horses are in more danger from being tied to the point of exhaustion for five days or from wearing a muzzle- I don't doubt which way he'd rule and those horses would be turned loose or taken home.
I think we have the power to make a change and I agree with you that by tolerating this sort of thing we are sanctioning it. Make a rule but please be careful how you phrase it! Give more power to enforce the rules we have, not just blocking one single way to be cruel. You know they'll just find some way around it- people always do. The good guys are always trying to catch up, chasing after the "bad guys" with law after law until everyone else is too hedged in by rules to move! My local Fair is proof of what happens when you go down that slippery slope and it isn't pretty.
These are just my thoughts and are not meant to endorse the specified behavior or say I don't agree with you that it's reprehensible. I do. I just want to make sure any rule you put forth is actually enforceable, which means concrete and provable. It doesn't do any good if it doesn't change anything.
By the way, from the sound of things I would have no trouble shipping or having one of my horses show under you. And that's saying something as I am generally NOT fond of halter trainers of any breed!
Leia
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txminipinto
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I would have a hard time supporting such a rule proposal. It would have to be specific. And a time limit of no more than 5 hours (not 1 or 2). I haul by myself and haul anywhere from 4-10 horses. There are times where some of these horses are standing tied for a couple hours due to batheing, clipping, and grooming. Obviously, no horse should be left tied over night unless it's a danger to itself in the stall. A friend had one stallion last year that had to be tied the entire show because he was rearing up and shoving his legs through the bars on the stall. Her owner wouldn't have been very happy if she came back with a stallion with broken legs.
This is a rule that will be very hard to pass and very hard to enforce.
This is a rule that will be very hard to pass and very hard to enforce.
