How many of you would support a Rule Change Proposal?

[skanzler]

I have observed horses being tied short in their stalls during the entire show at both the 2006 and 2007 AMHR Nationals. Granted, the horses had access to water and food and did have shavings placed in a pile beneath them, but none of these horses were able to relax or lie down during their entire stay. I witnessed one horse attempting to lay down and it was actually hanging from it's lead in an attempt to rest. As you know, most horses will not lay down and rest in an unfamiliar surrounding. You can imagine the amount of fatigue and stress that horse was under in order to attempt this while tied. The owner was notified of this horses situation, as was show management, and no action was taken. While the owner did make the horse get up, it still remained tied short for the remainder of the show. Management informed me that so long as the horses had access to food and water there was nothing to be done.

I feel that there should be a rule made to prevent this sort cruelty. The risk of a horse injuring itself is obvious. To me this borders on abuse that an animal cannot lay down and rest or move around its stall freely, especially for such a long duration. I would like to get a concensus of who would support a rule being submitted on this matter.

 

[disneyhorse]

I remember this "big trainer" doing so at the 2004 Nationals... I would support a Rule Change Proposal.

Andrea

 

[SirenFarms]

i would support your cause! thats horrible! my horses are always loose in between classes. You can always re-groom its not that big of a deal. shavings come off easy

 

[maestoso]

While I agree that the situation you described is both dangerous and cruel to the horse, a rule like that would be hard to enforce and would cause problems, IMO. What if I have classes within a reasonable time frame, say a half hour or so? I want to let my horse munch on some hay in his stall, but I need him to stay clean and don't want him rolling until after my final class..... Does the rule have a time limit on keeping horses tied in stalls, or that you can't keep them tied at all? Does the rule say, horses tie must be at least 18 inches in length? Can you see the complications of this?

 

[skanzler]

No Matt I don't see the problem. I think that a well thought out rule proposal is what we need. And if you can't take the time to dress your horse and put him away to rest, then you don't know how to manage your time efficiently. And if you can't figure out that a person is leaving their horses tied for an entire day or entire event then you are blind.

I am sorry that this sounds harsh, but I do not feel that we should stand back and watch these horses be treated this way. There is no excuse for leaving your horse tied 24 hours a day over 5 or more days. NONE.

It is one thing to tie your horse in it's stall while it drys and you are in the area supervising it. But it is an entirely different thing to leave that horse tied all day and all night while you are not only away from your stalls,but away from the facility.

 

[The Simple Life Farm]

Count me in on this rule!!!! I would love to see the owners being treated the same way!!! I bet they got to rest and sleep in a comfy bed everynight!!!!

Did they only have one horse? Did they do this to all of their horses, or just this one??? Oh, I would have been hopping mad!!!!

I can't think of any reason for someone to do that. These are living creatures we are talking about, not machines. If they are having to keep a horse tied all day due to showing, then maybe they are doing too many classes, or don't have enough help???

 

[nootka]

I would support that rule change. It is entirely unnecessary to tie a horse for that length of time.

A few hours, maybe...but the entire duration of a show?

Liz

 

[hobbyhorse23]

No Matt I don't see the problem. I think that a well thought out rule proposal is what we need. And if you can't take the time to dress your horse and put him away to rest, then you don't know how to manage your time efficiently. And if you can't figure out that a person is leaving their horses tied for an entire day or entire event then you are blind.I am sorry that this sounds harsh, but I do not feel that we should stand back and watch these horses be treated this way. There is no excuse for leaving your horse tied 24 hours a day over 5 or more days. NONE.

It is one thing to tie your horse in it's stall while it drys and you are in the area supervising it. But it is an entirely different thing to leave that horse tied all day and all night while you are not only away from your stalls,but away from the facility.

I think Matt has a point. Of course what you're talking about is absolutely reprehensible and should be prevented somehow but how do you prove the horse has been tied up that long? I can see so many ways innocent people who are NOT tying their horses up all day could be nailed by a badly-worded rule. My local fair has been absolutely ruined by micro-management. They have a rule about not tying your horse if the owner is not in the stall with the horse...and that means you literally can't leave to go get another grooming tool, the saddle, whatever without risking Fair Officials threatening to expel you. And they really are out there patrolling, looking for that sort of infraction. It's ridiculous!

How about instead of legislating the amount of time you can tie the horse, why don't you write the legislation so that it specifies a horse must be allowed a sufficient amount of available time to lay down in each 24 hour period? That comes with its own problems but at least leaves show management some recourse to object if a horse is being tied up to the point of exhaustion.

I personally think it's bordering on abuse to heap three blankets and a sleazy and hood on a halter horse and leave them in their stall on a 90+ degree day but I see people do that all the time. Sure the horse is loose, but they're miserable!

Leia

 

[ClickMini]

I would definitely support a ruling that would eliminate this practice. That was a very upsetting situation. I do think it will have to be carefully written to avoid penalizing people who aren't doing this sort of business.

I think it should be up to the show management to enforce humane treatment of the animal, and they should be given the latitude to decide what is and isn't humane treatment. I can't see anyone supporting the 24x7 tieing of a horse to a point where it could easily be injured or worse. Not to even mention the inability to lay down and rest. I know my horses lay down a lot at a show. It is stressful enough for them and they do get very tired.

 

[hhpminis]

This would take a lot of thought and am not sure how it could be worded. This is just such a broad area and what I would consider abuse, or maybe harsh, there may be six others that feel it is routine horsemanship.

In my opinion, the bit in the premium books about no abuse being allowed should cover it. But I guess abuse is in the eye of the beholder. The claim of the person you are talking about was that they would eat shavings if left untied. I know that some horses eat shavings, but honestly, I have yet to have a horse that does. I carry a few muzzles with me just in case but have never had to use one. To me that would be the answer to this problem but to this person, this seemed like the proper thing to do and that he was protecting his stock from ingesting shavings.

I remember at one show, I was asked to hold a horse for a moment while the handler did something, I think ran back to the barn as they forgot something. I was also holding another horse in the other hand. Now granted it is better if you can find someone without a horse and hindsight is always 20/20. Well, they started to puff up and challenge each other. Well here I am with both hands full! I stuck my leg out between them and pushed one back with my foot. I did not kick them, no sudden impact at all, just set my foot against one and pushed him back to avoid an incident. You should have heard the comments about that, I think most of them were in jest but I still felt that some were not kidding.

How do you distinguish between what one person considers necessary and what one person considers abuse? Are there really people that do things to their animals and feel they are abusing them at the time? If there is a specific rule against tieing your animal than can we assume that if there is not a specific rule against an action that it is OK? How do you define "abuse". Is it true that as long as their basic needs are met that anything goes? We all know that is not the case, as having whip welts on your horse will get attention you dont want real quick. Who decides whether an action is abuse or necessary discipline?

I am not opposing your statement and would support it, I would like to see them untied as well, as a matter of fact, I too talked to show officials about this, but am seeing that this could bring a lot of controversy and possibly open a can of worms?

 

[ClickMini]

I guess in my mind that was a shortcoming of the show management to enforce a humane treatment rule. In my mind, is it more likely that a horse will be injured by being short-tied, or by becoming ill from ingesting shavings? That just boggles my mind. Honestly, I think the person BELIEVES they are doing the right thing. Clearly, there is an issue however! Yes, maybe some eat a few shavings but for heck sake just give them small frequent amounts of hay and I guarantee they will prefer it! When you are talking about livestock worth thousands of dollars WHY would someone take these risks? I just do not understand it, from any point of view. I try to apply the "golden rule" to horses, just as I do to people. Would I feel comfortable being treated like that? If the answer is No, I don't do it! Now I am not saying that they shouldn't do a job, or even stand tied for a few hours. After all, I have to sit at a desk for hours each day to earn they money to support my little dear hearts. But to leave them short-tied at all times, really does not seem right to me, on any level. If they are so concerned the horses will eat the shavings, bring a couple of layers of rubber mats to put down in the stall and leave only a small amount of shavings to soak up urine. I walked on some lovely lightweight mats in I think it was Don Maas' aisleway at Nationals and thought they would be GREAT to put in the stalls! They were so cushy! I still want to find and buy some. They come in little interlocking squares.

 

[Jill]

[SIZE=10pt]When I first read the first part of the topic post, I thought you must mean tied between their classes but I guess not.[/SIZE]

I don't know how such a rule could be enforced and how it could be monitored to know between those tied between / before their classes (for a period of time) and those tied for days? I would of course not be in favor of horses tied up for long stretches of time - the entire show

[SIZE=10pt]As someone who does show, one thing seems in sharp contrast to the apparent practice of leaving a horse tied days on end: [/SIZE]



How does the handler get that horse to SHOW for them? If the horse truly has been tied for days, how to they get them to show for halter, in hand performace, driving???? That just seems like someone (handler / owner / trainer) cutting their nose of to spite their face??? I just do not think a horse tied for days will perform and

show
for any class

As to my own hoofed wonders, I personally haven't shown them yet at Nationals but they've been to Nationals and I've got pictures of them sleeping in the stalls to proove it.... oh, and some wins pictures, too

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

All rules require thought and consideration before implementing them. But it's not rocket science folks! I would support this and even assist in wording and promoting it if you wanted such help. Maybe even updated wording to an existing rule would be sufficient. Either way, I am ALWAYS in support of better showing conditions for the horses. A person who is just tying their horse between classes has nothing to worry about with such a rule IMO.

 

[Sunny]

While I agree that the situation you described is both dangerous and cruel to the horse, a rule like that would be hard to enforce and would cause problems, IMO. What if I have classes within a reasonable time frame, say a half hour or so? I want to let my horse munch on some hay in his stall, but I need him to stay clean and don't want him rolling until after my final class..... Does the rule have a time limit on keeping horses tied in stalls, or that you can't keep them tied at all? Does the rule say, horses tie must be at least 18 inches in length? Can you see the complications of this?

I agree wholeheartedly in spirit with the original post, but I also agree with Matt. How would such a rule be implemented and enforced? Who would check the amount of time a horse is tied?

So many good points have been raised here already about how one defines "abuse" and what kind of treatment is acceptable. I personally despise muzzles, and really hate to see horses in their stalls with blankets and slinkies on in hot weather, whether they're loose or tied. (I also can't abide tail set harnesses and ankle chains, but does that mean it's cruel or abusive just because I don't like it?)

IMO, you can't legislate common sense. Show management's rules about not tolerating abuse "should" cover a situation like the one described in the original post. I don't think a "new" rule needs to be written; just enforce the current one.

 

[Yaddax3]

you can't legislate common sense. Show management's rules about not tolerating abuse "should" cover a situation like the one described in the original post. I don't think a "new" rule needs to be written; just enforce the current one.

Agreed. Common sense and existing rules should apply.

Also, if the reason for horses being tied is that they eat shavings, chances are they are being tied in their stalls at home, too. How do you legislate against that?

Instead of legislation, how about education? There appears to be more than a few people upset about these horses being tied. Why not talk to the person or people tying their horses? I'm guessing we can get their name(s) in a PM from the original poster.

 

[coopermini]

Now would be a good time to put an end to tieing 24/7 at shows before it "catches on".

If the horse eats that much shavings as possible said put in mats with no shavings over night.

I can see where if this or these horses won or did very well some one will think this is the latest and best new training fad to win. "If it worked for them I better try it" without any knowledge of why said horses may have been tied.

Wording might be to no horses may be tied in stalls from 11pm til 6am unless an attendant is grooming the horse. Something like this might be enforced?

The biggest issue is you are going to tick off a big name trainer who will have friends that in turn be peeved off to support said trainer.

My 2 cents

 

[wildoak]

This is not a new thing folks, maybe to minis but I walked away from a western pleasure trainer years ago when she suggested I leave my daughter's horse tied in her stall overnight to make her tired & take the edge off. No thanks.

I agree in principle, it's a no brainer but I also think it would be a difficult rule to word and enforce fairly. There are too many instances at a show when you are between classes or have multiple horses to show and have to tie them once they are clean and prepped. At a large show there may be a sizable wait between classes where your horse stands tied, is that abuse? I don't believe it is, assuming they are tied safely and they have access to water. Tying a horse for a reasonable length of time is a basic part of training. I also firmly believe they should have plenty of down time to be loose, relax and be horses, but everyone has their own take on how to manage that.

you can't legislate common sense. Show management's rules about not tolerating abuse "should" cover a situation like the one described in the original post. I don't think a "new" rule needs to be written; just enforce the current one.

I think this says it best - if you try to write a rule to cover every individual offense you are fighting a losing battle.

Jan

 

[Alex]

The first time I saw this was at our local fair. My farrier has driving fojiords(sp!) and halflingers. they wer tied up all the time unless they were driving. But, as Jill said, the still worked for him!?

He said it was good for driving horses to stand all the time. Yea they need to have patients, but they dont need to be tied up all the time.

I havent seen this with minis, but I havent been to nationals either.

Surely I would support this.

 

[MinisOutWest]

I'm In- but careful thought and wording must be used, no left out wording cause it will cause loopholes. We dealt with this in AQHA back in 1987, maybe I can look in the rule book for proper wording. what kind of time line are we looking at in submitting this?

 

[Katiean]

I had a horse at UC Davis Vet School and they kept her tied short in her stall for about 3-4 weeks. It did not have any ill effects on her. As long as there are periods of the horse at least being walked and they are fed and watered I do not see there is any harm. These horses that are kept tied at the shows are most likely kept that way at home. It is the norm for them. I don't see a problem.