How can some people show Amt?

[myminis]

Why do trainers spouses and significant others allowed to show in amt? I see this happening a lot in amha and Im confused how they can be amt.

 

[Mominis]

According to the rulebook, the spouse of a trainer cannot show amateur.

 

[minimomNC]

They can't in AMHR but they can in AMHA. And its suppose to be because the spouse isn't part of the training of client horses. Its a very thin line.

 

[wpsellwood]

Looks like the rule needs to be re written so its a little more clear or changed. AMHR got that one right!

1. For horse show purposes, a person is considered

an amateur when he or she is no longer eligible to

compete in youth classes and has not engaged in

any activities, except as a youth, during the past

five (5) calendar years which are listed below.

a. Having accepted remuneration in the last five

(5) years for showing any horse at halter or in

performance competition, training, schooling

either horses or other persons.

b. Having accepted remuneration in the last five

(5) years for having conducted seminars, clinics,

given instruction in showing, training or

judging.

c. Having accepted remuneration in the last five

(5) years for judging or being a horse breed

association judge or horse show association

judge.

d. An individual who has had entry fees paid or

has received premium money would still be

considered an amateur.

 

[Charlotte]

I would like to see that tightened up in AMHA too. When Frank 'went pro' I gave up my amateur status also. I felt it was the only ethical thing to do since I live with him and I benefit from the money paid to him for training and the show horses are right here in the barn where I am all the time.

Why doesn't someone write up a rule change? That's the way to get it done.

Charlotte

 

[txminipinto]

As a married trainer, I agree and disagree with this rule in AMHR/ASPC. While I am a professional, my husband is NOT!! He would like to show but isn't comfortable getting out there against other pros so I do all of our own farm showing. He has occassionally handled a client horse in the ring, set up next to me, with me coaching the entire time (and beat me!

). But if left to himself, he couldn't show his way out of a wet paper bag!

I'm not sure how he's any different than my clients who show amt. and walk a horse that's been in my barn right into the ring. Either way, I think he's happy to sit on the sidelines and groom occassionaly.

 

[wpsellwood]

I would like to see that tightened up in AMHA too. When Frank 'went pro' I gave up my amateur status also. I felt it was the only ethical thing to do since I live with him and I benefit from the money paid to him for training and the show horses are right here in the barn where I am all the time.

Wow now there is some integrity and nice to see. I agree 100 percent.

 

[Sandee]

Isn't fairness why AMHA has the different levels for AMT? I personally know breeders that have shown for so long that they have the skill of a trainer but show AMT. However, in AMHA after so many points (or years), they move you from level 1 to level 2 so that the REAL amateurs stand a chance when they start showing.

 

[minimomNC]

I dont' have any issues with real amatures showing in amateur classes. If you don't take payment for training, showing, judging or clinics, then you are an amateur and you have every right to show. I don't find that to be a problem, showing against the ones that are really good just gives us a goal to shoot for, beating them. We have on occasion, not often but we are working on it. The big issue to me is you just don't know who does what on a trainers property and to me a spouse could just as easily work client horses as the trainer can, its not out of the realm of possiblities, and then still show amateur. If I had a trainer lease any part of my property to train horses, but they never came in contact with mine, I still couldn't show AOTE because the possiblity is there in someones eyes. While I know there are honest trainers and spouses there are some that bend the rules as far as possible. So even though some are doing it the right way, its the ones that aren't that will cause the rule to get changed.

 

[epetrilli]

This is an interesting topic to me, because as an amature I have often wondered about this myself. I have gone into the ring as a Level 1 amt and had spouses of trainers in my class and while some of what txminipinto said might be true, there are some spouses and relatives that can get out of the paper bag and onto a world win-LOL! To me if a trainer can have 2 horses in an one class (and accept renumeration on both horses) by having their spouse or significant other showing it, then in my opinion that is directly benefiting the entire operation. It seems that the rules on AOTE horses clearly specify that direct family or same household of a trainer can not show, so I guess my question would be how is one division of Amt any different than the other in respect to being considered related to a trainer. The loose terms and/or thin line interpretation of these rules will eventually lead to a much larger can of worms in the future.

Client horses should not be allowed to be shown in Amt classes by anyone other than the Amt OWNER or a relative to that owner who is present at a given show. So while Txmini's statement "I'm not sure how he's any different than my clients who show amt. and walk a horse that's been in my barn right into the ring." is something I can see as a compelling defense, I also see the flip side and wonder where the line is drawn in per se client horses being "leased" or co-owned by family of trainers? Where is the rule to prevent that from coming into play?

It seems that the rules between Amt and AOTE should be somewhat consistant in clarifying the regulations on who is considered an Amature and what exactly constitutes "benefit of renumeration". Bad analogy here but is it safe to say the Spouse of the President is not directly involved or does not benefit from the position held by the President although that is not her primary profession? It is called "First Family" because the whole household is involved. Now I do understand that some trainers do not have the benefit of having spouses and family assist in the day to day activity of working with the horses, but they do have the benefit of "training" or coaching their spouses to help them when needed and I believe that may be the concern to which this post was directed? At least that would be my personal take on the concern???

 

[georgiegirl]

Part of the reason that they are showing in amateur is because no one has stepped up and contacted the associations about the fact that they are breaking the rules.

All I can say about it is that if you plan to step up and make a move, you had better have all your ducks in a row and all the proper information in hand. You had better have people, who are willing to testify, you need canceled checks, and a ton of absolute information.

I went this route a long time ago and got someone suspended, indefinitely, from a breed association. Yes, I did have everything in order, all kinds of absolute proof. A hearing was held and the individual was asked to return all winnings and was fined $500. The name appears in every breed magazine, and has been for a number of years as suspended.

What did it get me? A threat to murder my horse and a lot of hate filled people, even though I was correct and won. I quit showing my horse where I knew this person would be because I knew the threat was real.

I think it is too bad that associations dont look a little more closely and enforce their own rules. It certainly is a real problem.

 

[wpsellwood]

Part of the reason that they are showing in amateur is because no one has stepped up and contacted the associations about the fact that they are breaking the rules.

All I can say about it is that if you plan to step up and make a move, you had better have all your ducks in a row and all the proper information in hand. You had better have people, who are willing to testify, you need canceled checks, and a ton of absolute information.

I went this route a long time ago and got someone suspended, indefinitely, from a breed association. Yes, I did have everything in order, all kinds of absolute proof. A hearing was held and the individual was asked to return all winnings and was fined $500. The name appears in every breed magazine, and has been for a number of years as suspended.

What did it get me? A threat to murder my horse and a lot of hate filled people, even though I was correct and won. I quit showing my horse where I knew this person would be because I knew the threat was real.

I think it is too bad that associations dont look a little more closely and enforce their own rules. It certainly is a real problem.

I think they were just asking how they were showing in amt. I dont think anyone is pointing fingers or trying to get anyone suspended. I think a rule change would clear up the matter

 

[myminis]

Yes wpsellwood that's all I was asking. It would be nice to see the rule changed. Thank you all for your opinions I'm glad to hear that a lot of people would like to see the rule changed as well.

 

[Charlotte]

I can't find anything in the AMHR Rule Book about spouses of trainers showing as amateurs. Would someone please give me the page that is on?

Thank you,

Charlotte

 

[Karen S]

Good Evening to All,

From the 2008 ASPC/AMHR rulebook, Section III, Part 1-Definitions, Amateur, page 36

H.:

A husband, wife, or significant other of a professional trainer who solicits, advertises whether it be in magazines, newspapers, handout, websites, on vehicles and or trailers or any other means of communication to the public, who trains equine in/for any other equine association (this would include donkeys and zebras) may not hold an amateur card in the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR nor can they show as an amateur in any sanctioned ASPC/AMHR/ASPR show unless they have notified the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Registry in writing the date of which the training facility has been closed, all advertisments of soliciation of training have been removed from publications, websites, handouts, and any other form of public communications and the professional trainer along with their husband or wife or significant other must wait a period of one (1) year from the date of which said letter is received and recorded by the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Registry. A letter from the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Registry to the trainer along with their husband or wife or significant other giving them the official date of which they can reapply for their amateur cards and waiting their one (1) year period and meeting all qualifications of an amateur.

If anyone has any questions regarding the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR amateur program I will be happy to visit with you anytime.

Sincerely,

Karen Shaw

Chairman

ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Triple A Amateur Advantage Program

817-426-0262

Email: [email protected]

 

[sfmini]

I haven't seen the rules broken in AMHA. The spouses show client horses, but in the open classes. An ammy MUST own or be a family member to show a horse in ammy. To get around that minor detail, they start co-owning horses with clients of their spouse trainer, and then they can show ammy.

We can keep writing rules to get around it and people will still find other ways to beat the system.

In AMHA we at least have the AOTE division.

 

[Charlotte]

We can keep writing rules to get around it and people will still find other ways to beat the system.

Sad to say, I'm afraid Jody's words are true. No matter how many or how good the rules are there are always those who want to get around them. We need to close as many loop holes as we can, but in the end the best thing we can do is to follow the INTENT of the rules as they are written and let our concience be our guide. (that makes any placing we receive Oh So Sweet)

I realy don't know if writing a new rule regarding spouses will have any effect.

Charlotte

 

[Karen S]

Good Point in regards to the AOTE. That is why you have two different registries so that you can have options as to which amateur program you want to participate in. If you show AMHA you follow their rules regarding their amateur program. You show ASPC/AMHR you follow their rules. Each set of rules are for THAT associations members to adhere to, not to try to make one into another.

As chairman of the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Triple A Amateur program I have spend countless hours going over the vast different amateur programs that are out there. Each association has their good and bad points, but over all they do cater to the amateur. One thing you all have to keep in mind, the ASPC/AMHR is a member of the USEF not only for the Miniature Division, but the Shetland division as well. If you haven't spent time looking over the USEF rulebook's amateur section, you will find that the majority of the ASPC/AMHR amateur rules come straight out of that rulebook. This was done waaaaayyyyyy back before I was appointed as chair and those rules have been working and still do.

I have always encouraged anyone to notify me in the event they think a person is violating our amateur rules. I do investigate to see. If I find they are in violation of our amateur rules I go through proper proceedures to pull amateur cards. Has it been done, yes it has. I applaud people like Charlotte who took the iniative to do the right thing with dropping her amateur status when her husband turned pro. Rules are there for a reason, not to be stretched by any means, but there are people out in the world today who will push the envelope to see how far they can get...all for what....a blue ribbon. Cheaters only hurt themselves in the long run.

Karen Shaw

 

[myminis]

Thanks Karen, I'm glad your out there protecting us.

 

[georgiegirl]

I know that was just what they were asking, however, I just wanted everyone to know that, before they try to do anything about a professional showing in ammy, that they need to think carefully about what they are doing.

The consequences can be bad in spite of the fact they may be correct.

The associations need to step up and do the questioning.