Help!!!

[D W 2]

Hi, I have to vent and to ask for some help with an issue!!! my neighbour has this 37 inch stallion that she just loves and thinks that he has the best temperment and so on, but what really gets me is that she bought a little 30 inch mare and now has them pasturing together!!! I have tried to talk her out of it, the stud isnt papered or anything . I was wondering if anybody has heard of a seven inch gap that foaled out smoothly... and could anybody tell me what there height/breeding rule is???

 

[attwoode]

There is no hard and fast rule. It depends more on the particular mare and the particular stallion. With minis it has a lot to do with the foals head size and how narrow they are when they are born. Big heads and stocky thick-boned foals of any size can be difficult for a mare with a narrow pelvis. On the other hand, a small mare with enough room and pelvis could possibly have a taller more fine-boned foal with no trouble. Some taller mares have narrow hips.

 

[MajorClementine]

I know in breeding big horses, if you are going to cross anything with a draft you always make sure the mare is the draft. We never breed small mares to large stallions. But some people have to learn the hard way at the expense of their animals. It's really sad but we can only hope for the best.

 

[frostedpineminis]

I was told that you shouldnt go more than 4 inches

 

[Kelsey - Vandy's Farm]

Hi, I have to vent and to ask for some help with an issue!!! my neighbour has this 37 inch stallion that she just loves and thinks that he has the best temperment and so on, but what really gets me is that she bought a little 30 inch mare and now has them pasturing together!!! I have tried to talk her out of it, the stud isnt papered or anything . I was wondering if anybody has heard of a seven inch gap that foaled out smoothly... and could anybody tell me what there height/breeding rule is???

I would never ever do that. Minis have enough problems with dystocias....why would you chance that?

 

[ohmt]

There is no real 'rule'-it is more for people's piece of mind I think when they say 4". We always look at how fine boned the mare and stallion are, what kind of foals they produce, and how 'roomy' the mare is of course. The filly in my dp is out of a 29" mare and by a 34-35" stallion. The mare is very roomy with nice wide hips and she is an experienced broodmare. The stallion is very fine boned and produces really refined foals. I was not worried crossing the two of them together. Now if I took my Iowas Little Kernel son and added a few inches to him, I would never even think about breeding that mare to him as he is much thicker boned than the other stallion.

Much thought is always put into every breeding. If a height difference makes me even a little bit nervous, I don't do it.

So there are a lot of different things to look at before thinking a 7" gap automatically means bad dystocia. What I don't like is that the foal will not be registered.

So how 'thick' are the stallion and mare?

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

I personally would not do it. Too many breeders with the combined experience of hundreds of foals have said to use the 4 inch rule. I don't care how roomy the mare or how fine boned the stallion, 7 inches is too much for my comfort.

Poor mare.

 

[Candi]

While I don't think this is a good idea...

There was a VET in a town nearby few years ago that was crossing a Belgian Stallion on Shetland mares. Yes, you heard that right. Creating his own "version" of Halflingers...

Now he did this A.I. but the mares foaled out normally.

The mares were all around 11H and the stallion a good 17.2-3H. Foals came out fairly "normal" pony size - then grew to around 14H.

Did this for several years - had 3-4 foals a year - NO complications.

Asked a repro specialist vet about it one time - said that unless the mare is poorly formed (narrow hips, tilted pelvis, etc) the foals will only grow to the size the uterus will allow...

 

[bannerminis]

I have heard breeders and vets say that a foal will only grow to the size that a mare can carry. It comes down to how narrow hipped a mare is for foaling or if the foal is badly positioned then thats when you get problems.

Is it somthing I would do myself? No I dont think so as I probably would be worried for the entire pregnancy.

I know when I worked with vets there was a particular bull (charolais) and was very popular for AI but it was being used on dairy or a dairy mix cows and this bull was producing BIG babies that the cows could not give birth to naturally so that yr in particular there were a LOT of c-sections being carried out on the cows.

So I do believe that a heavier boned stallion could also have an impact on even a normal mare foaling so somthing I would also be aware of.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I'm so glad the Vet was so confident, breeding based on an old wives tale instead of firm, experience is always such a good idea

If a mare will only carry a foal that she can foal out, how come we get so many dystocias with big foals??

Larger mares are a different matter, I bred smaller Welsh mares to our Arab PB Palomino, no problem, and he was 15.2hh.

The mares never had problems.

Would I have bred these mares to a Draught horse?

No, no way whatsoever. Ever!

I suppose it comes down to whether or not you care if the mare dies giving birth, If you do not, as that Vet obviously did not, then you can afford to let luck take it's course.

With Minis you have much less room for error, and the size of the mare does not govern the size of the foal, so I would always breed a small stallion to a larger mare.

And, of course, I would never breed and unregistered foal, anyway.

What would be the point?

But to answer the original question, there is nothing you can do, it is neither your problem nor your business, so I would stand back and be glad it is not your problem

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

While I don't think this is a good idea...

There was a VET in a town nearby few years ago that was crossing a Belgian Stallion on Shetland mares. Yes, you heard that right. Creating his own "version" of Halflingers...

Now he did this A.I. but the mares foaled out normally.

The mares were all around 11H and the stallion a good 17.2-3H. Foals came out fairly "normal" pony size - then grew to around 14H.

Did this for several years - had 3-4 foals a year - NO complications.

Asked a repro specialist vet about it one time - said that unless the mare is poorly formed (narrow hips, tilted pelvis, etc) the foals will only grow to the size the uterus will allow...

May not be the most popular opinion, but I agree with the Vet. Unlike cattle, goats, and sheep; horses determine birth size by the size of the mother primarily. Also most dystocias in mares is due to positioning rather than fetal size. Breeding horses who vary widely in size is something that is commonly done with success.

Dr Taylor

 

[Jill]

I wouldn't do it, either, but they're not my horses or yours either. I do think that refinement of the stallion is a much bigger factor than the height, however, in a mini, 7" is a significant difference. I think probably most of the people who are breeding minis should not be breeding minis and it sounds like your neighbor might fit right in with a lot of other "breeders".

 

[jegray21]

While I don't think this is a good idea...

There was a VET in a town nearby few years ago that was crossing a Belgian Stallion on Shetland mares. Yes, you heard that right. Creating his own "version" of Halflingers...

Now he did this A.I. but the mares foaled out normally.

The mares were all around 11H and the stallion a good 17.2-3H. Foals came out fairly "normal" pony size - then grew to around 14H.

Did this for several years - had 3-4 foals a year - NO complications.

Asked a repro specialist vet about it one time - said that unless the mare is poorly formed (narrow hips, tilted pelvis, etc) the foals will only grow to the size the uterus will allow...

This is what my vet said

Later the baby might grow bigger than the mare but not until after it is born.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

I wouldn't do it. I had a mare that was 31-32" tall bred to a 33" stud. He was very refined and she wasn't petite. She ended up having a month early and ended being a preemie and the foal died. The stud just threw too big of babies for the mare to carry full term and I didn't know. This same mare was bred the next year to a 34" stud and this years baby is fine. So you just never know but why take the risk. Your neighbor sounds like she just wants to have a baby out of her faviorte stud without doing her homework and you probably won't be able to change her mind.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

I too would be just as concerned if not more that the neighbor was going to breed an unregisterable foal. There are more than enough grade ponies filling up the auctions already IMO. Still, you can not do a thing to prevent it from happening and every person who breeds has what they think are good reasons to do so (and the right to do it) As far a the size thing, many years ago we got our first minis at an auction. The mare was about 36" or so and she had a 3 month old colt at her side who was almost as tall as her already. Turns out the previous owner also had a quarter horse stallion and he let the mare run with him believing, so we were told

, that he would not be physically able to breed her. She delivered the resulting foal without help out in the pasture and both survived. That I believe is a matter of luck since I know a man who imported a very pretty, refined 30" stallion to cross on his mares. The mares range in size from 30" up to 34" and in the first year of breeding he covered 4 mares with this unproven youngster. When foaling season rolled around he lost 3 out of 4 (not sure what became of #4 since he sold the mare as a bred mare)foals and 2 of the mares as well. The foals were just too big for those mares to deliver even with veterinary help. The stallion just threw very big foals and no one expected that. It was an expensive year for him, not only the loss of mares/foals and vet bills for their care but also the new colt that he had imported (from the US) with all the costs associated now had to become a gelding.

 

[Reble]

May not be the most popular opinion, but I agree with the Vet. Unlike cattle, goats, and sheep; horses determine birth size by the size of the mother primarily. Also most dystocias in mares is due to positioning rather than fetal size. Breeding horses who vary widely in size is something that is commonly done with success.

Dr Taylor

I know with horses other than minis we never thought about our Stallion being smaller for breeding, just not thought of.

So must be some truth in this.

We used to breed Paso Finos and our Stallion was 15.3 hands

Mares 13hands -14 hands and never had a problem.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

As I said, I bred my Welsh mares to our Arab without qualms, BUT there is an awful lot of difference between a Mini and a small pony mare!

I do not believe I ever heard of a pony mare having a foal too big to pass- a friend Shetland ( who was AmShet type, not UK) was bred by mistake be her 15.3hh Polish (so heavier type) Arab.

She had the foal fine, although it was big, in fact HUGE it was fairly fine and she was well set up.

This rule, however, does not work in Minis as we do not yet have a set "breed".

In a Welsh Sec A, standing say, 11.2hh, you KNOW that all it's forebears, back into the mists of time have been cob ponies standing no more than 12hh (dependent on the year and the country!) With our Minis you can have a 30" or even a 28" animal with 36/38" forebears in the very near pedigree, and we all know how much difference an inch makes!

I have had mares have foals they could not pass, twice, now, and the foal had to be sectioned to get it out.

This was not a dystocia in the normal sense of the word, the foal was presented normally and should have been born but could not get through the pelvic girdle, it was too big.

So, I do actually happen to know that this can and does happen.

I had this happen twice in one mare- I only put her back in foal on the Vets advice and she did not charge me for the second foaling as she felt responsible, this mare was small, smaller than my now 30"cut off point. The other mare that had the same problem was 35" and bred to a small stallion- same problem.

I also had a 30" mare unable to pass her first foal- but she did foal subsequently, alright. The first foal, however, was just a big colt, too big to pass naturally.

 

[Minimor]

my grandfather had a draft cross mare that had a foal that was too big for her to deliver--the foal had to be cut up to get it out of her--so yes, it can happen to a horse of any size.

Obviously, from what has been said already on this thread, there are mini mares that have foals that are too big for them to deliver, even when the stallion used is smaller than the mare, and refined besides...and yes, sometimes Mini mares are bred to stallions that are taller/bigger than themselves and they have foals that are small enough to deliver easily.

Is this breeding something I would do? No, absolutely not, for more than one reason! Is it a guaranteed disaster? No, probably not--I expect there is a very good chance that this mare will have her foal without problems--and for the mare's sake I hope it is so. I do know someone here who has bred a Mini mare to a bigger Welsh stallion & the resulting foal caused no problems during delivery. I just hope that in the case described in the OP here that the owner will make the effort to watch the mare and be there for her at foaling time so that she can do the right thing shoud the mare have problems.

 

[Candi]

May not be the most popular opinion, but I agree with the Vet. Unlike cattle, goats, and sheep; horses determine birth size by the size of the mother primarily. Also most dystocias in mares is due to positioning rather than fetal size. Breeding horses who vary widely in size is something that is commonly done with success.

Dr Taylor

I *LIKE* seeing more professional opinions from MINI KNOWLEDGEABLE vets! See and hear too many horror stories or "old wives tales" from breeders and "old owners" alike to scare people.

Thank you for the candid (albeit not looking like it's the popular) opinion!