Help with long reining please

[Chilli's Mum]

Hi everyone!

I have recently bought my first mini after I had to stop riding due to my health (she has the best temperament of any horse I have ever had).

I would like to start her in harness next year and I have started doing a little bit of ground driving with the long reins attached to a rope halter. Things are going well but I have a few questions that maybe someone can help me with?

The main problem when I'm driving her is that she wants to stop and grab any tiny piece of hay within 10kms, how can I discourage this without her thinking I mean "back up"?

Secondly, she is used to having a bridle on but how do I make the transition from driving her on the halter to driving her off the bit?

Any help would be appreciated!

 

[mininik]

I suggest you check out the DVDs by Patty Cloke at http://www.ClokeStables.com

 

[hobbyhorse23]

First of all, how old is your girl? That dictates a lot of the answer as a younger horse needs to be handled with a bit more patience than an older one. Basically if she's old enough to have a good attention span I would keep her working at all times so she's focused on you and not on reaching down for food. If she's young enough to still be working on "walk" and "whoa" and you can't seem to stop her munching, I'd bring out the dreaded check rein (yes Fizz, I know!

) for a session or two and let her bring herself up short. Now don't get me wrong, I think check reins on a driving horse are generally speaking the devil, but they ARE useful for bringing a determined grazer up short. I have to admit to a certain sadistic glee when my normally checkless gelding hit the thing for the first time while being obnoxious during harnessing at a breed show last year. The look on his face when he tried to yank the reins out of my hand was priceless.....

And you can bet he gave up after the second attempt.

Just make sure you adjust it loose enough that all it does is prevent her from getting her head all the way down to grazing level, not much tighter than that.

Another thing, be sure you are correcting her before she goes for the hay. You can see by their ears and body posture when they aren't paying attention to you and if you get her mind back on the job then, you won't have to wrestle her head back up at all.

As for transitioning from the halter to the bit, have her wear the halter over her bridle for awhile and teach her voice commands for going left and right as well as stopping and starting. When she has those down cold you can switch the reins to the bridle and give her those same voice commands as well as gentle rein cues and she should figure it out. Be patient with her and don't push, just give her space to think about it and reward her when she makes even a move towards doing it right. It won't take more than one session with most minis!

Leia

 

[Chilli's Mum]

Thankyou both for your suggestions.

My mare is four and I have had her three months and prior to coming to me she was not really handled and running in a large broodmare herd.

Things have been going a bit better although she is very determined when she spots any snacks. I have found her a bit better when we go out of the arena and around the property, probably because she has more to look at so she goes forward better. If I use a check rein just to reinforce the no eating policy do I run it from the top ring on the roller to the back of the halter?

She is pretty good on whoa and walk on but I will work on left and right too. She is so quick to grab at anything edible (like bushes and trees now

) that I might try a check rein.

The other thing I was wondering about was when to go from using a direct rein aid ie opening the rein away from her body to and indirect aid once the reins are running through the roller rings? I know it's probably one of those "how long is a piece of string" questions but I am worried I will do something wrong and wreck her somehow. I have to say that so far she thinks this is great fun and is pretty enthusiastic

 

[hobbyhorse23]

That's great that she's enjoying her job! You must be doing something right if that's the case.

When you say "roller," do you mean a surcingle with lots of rings, the driving saddle itself, or something else? I just want to make sure we're talking about the same piece of equipment before I give you any advice. I think generally speaking running the makeshift check rein to the halter is a lovely idea. It gives you the same preventative action without interferring with the bit in any way or causing her to yank her mouth. Wonderful!

You may find only running it to the back of the halter doesn't actually prevent her from eating so be prepared to run it down to the halter rings like a regular side check.

Regarding direct rein vs indirect rein, you'll find that the answer or at least my version of it is a bit confusing. Since driving reins are always supposed to be run through some level of terret ring to keep them from dangling dangerously there really is never a direct rein in the sense that you are using it. I can see where for the first few lessons in a halter you might be doing that but I'd wean the horse off it as soon as possible by gradually bringing your hand back into the standard position until you aren't moving them sideways at all to signal a turn. The terrets supposedly keep the horse from feeling any directional reining so unlike a riding horse just about everything will be done via half-halts and balancing the pressure between one rein and the other. Now what's confusing is that right after your trainer and all the driving books out there get done telling you that, they then insist that you must still keep your hands in a straight line to the bit just as in riding and that you must keep your shoulders straight and your hands together because if you move them the horse will follow your rein!

And what's worse, they're right! OH! LOL. So they both can and can't feel directional movements of the reins when driving. Basically what is correct is to move your elbow straight back to tighten the rein, preferrably without dropping your hand. Don't move it to the outside and don't suck it inwards towards your opposite hand and chest to take up rein like I always catch myself doing.

The correct way as I've been taught it to go through a turn is this:

-Think deep and think ahead. When you are walking towards a corner in an arena, think like you are going to walk forward beyond that arena wall until you are actually ready to begin your turn. Keep your eyes up and focused ahead. Breathe deeply and relaxedly. If you start anticipating the turn, so will your horse. I've found driving and riding are both very zen-like-- when you're trotting a straight line, you're on the straight line until you're not!

Don't get ahead of yourself.

-When it is time to begin the turn keep your shoulders up and back, your body erect, and your abdominal muscles taut (pretend there is a string attached to the top of your head pulling you up). Give the horse a gentle half-halt on the outside rein to let her know something is coming and then turn your eyes and upper body in the direction you wish to go; imagine that your belly button is a flashlight and shine the light along your path. Breath!

-Your outside rein holds the horse out on the circle or path, the inside rein asks for the bend. Rather than pulling your horse into the turn with the inside rein as you would when riding you half-halt on the inside to get them to soften the jaw and bend and then as the bend is produced you feed the outside rein just enough to allow the turn. Usually turning your upper body in the manner described above will give you enough give in the outside rein but you may have to move that hand forward slightly more to follow the horse. As you complete the turn you gently take up the outside rein again (moving your hand and arm back, not shortening the rein in your hand) which has the effect of "disallowing" further turning. Think of it like steering a bicyle- you can't pull back on one handlebar without moving the other one forward. When you pull the outside "handlebar" back again you'll have to give with the inside one too, otherwise you bottle the horse up and they will break gait or stop in confusion.

-You should now be back on a straight line. Continue your relaxed deep breaths and drive to the next corner!

Now having given you all that detail let me clarify that what I've described is a proper turn as done in driven dressage. That's about as complicated as it gets!

The breed show ring has different standards and I believe from what friends have told me that they do use a sort of "opening hand" on the inside to invite the horse to step through it and over in order to turn. And of course when you're ground-driving in a halter or simply out on the trail pulling on one rein or the other works just fine. But I wanted to share the most complicated way of doing it because the tools that you use in such a turn are the foundation of everything else and may be helpful in correcting other problems as you go along. For now just remember that when trail driving you can either use a check to support the horse and the reins only signal left, right, or whoa, or if you don't have a check you MUST hold contact at all times so the horse knows they're not alone out there. Contact should be friendly, not something the horse resents. Then making turns and changing speeds is a matter of how much pressure you take up or release and that's where the type of turn I describe above comes in.

Draft-style or farm/Amish-style driving is very different because their entire set of goals, priorities, and horse-handling are different. Each one works and you've just got to pick the direction you want to go in. The style I use is called "carriage driving" and is different from "show driving" although I do compete. Don't stress too much over any of this as A) horses are very forgiving, B) she can always learn a different way to do things later, and C) right now all she's really learning is how to give to pressure. Anything more complicated than "left means left and right means right" can come later!

Hope I haven't completely overwhelmed you. Drive on!

Leia

Edited for the one typo I missed

 

[FairytailGlennMinis]

Good gosh Leia! I have been driving for 8 or 9 years now and you made me feel like a total slacker and took me back to lessons I had when I first started! I was nodding my head in agreement while remembering my very first lessons (with a goal of the Carriage Classic in the Pines in Pinehurst NC) and realized that, "oh man...I don't do ANY of that anymore!" Thanks for putting me back on the ball!!! Hmmm---how about a lesson in teaching that the whip really is used like a leg aid...? hehehe.

Amy

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Good gosh Leia! I have been driving for 8 or 9 years now and you made me feel like a total slacker...

Amy, you really had me worried for a minute there! LOL. You've been driving a lot longer than I have but trust me I slack off too and the horse certainly understands a pull on one rein as a turn signal just as well as the dressage stuff.

The only difference is that when you start with dressage you can build on it to create a prettier frame and nicer movement or just let the horse be a horse that day if that's what you feel like. If all they know is 1=1 there's nothing to build on.

I think if ya'll are finding it that useful than I'll pull the snippet above off and put it on my webpage for future reference. Thanks for the feedback!

Leia

Edited for typo, AGAIN

 

[dangerranger]

Hey Leia, while we are on the subject of learning to turn corectly, do you teach your horses "left and right" or "GEE and HAW" or some other word for turn? or does it matter as long as you stisk to one thing?Inquiring minds want to know? DR.

 

[Chilli's Mum]

THANKYOU LEIA!

That was a great help. Yes by "roller" I mean a surcingle with rings down each side. I don't yet have proper harness for her (still saving for it!).

We had a great session today and I did put the reins through string on the roller rings so we were closer to what you described but I will run them through the rings tomorrow and see how that goes. I guess it's been hard for me to make the transition from what I would have done riding a young horse to driving because it is really quite different and I hadn't really appreciated that before I started long reining and reading your post.

I'm not planning to compete but I do want her to be a good harness pony and do things correctly even if we don't go in the show ring. I'll keep working on it!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hey Leia, while we are on the subject of learning to turn corectly, do you teach your horses "left and right" or "GEE and HAW" or some other word for turn? or does it matter as long as you stisk to one thing?Inquiring minds want to know? DR.

Just pick something and stick with it. It's no good having a command if it won't roll off your tongue when you need it!

I was taught gee and haw by a carriage driving trainer when I was younger which I know now is a bit unusual, but when I started driving Kody I was on my own and the pneumonic devices I'd used to remember which way was which with gee and haw ended up becoming my turn commands. I use "Come left" and "Get right" because those are what came out of my mouth consistently and they made sense to me from the perspective of working the horse from the left side on the ground. I think most of what he notices is the "left" and "right" and I use those words in the command to pivot the cart ("Kody, step left...") or in teaching him to turn quickly while jumping in hand. I don't use them if I'm just making a gradual turn, only if I need him to turn harder than he's doing and I don't want to up the bit command. Many CDE drivers simply call "Come around!" or "Come around hard! Come, come..." when they need the horse to spin at speed.

Chilli's Mum, when you run the reins through her surcingle or roller rings make sure you use the lower ones to start with. The upper rings are considered to be for more advanced horses because it's very easy for a green horse to spin around and face you when you're using them and you've really got no way to stop them. When you use the lower rings the horse gets a clearer directional signal for learning, the surcingle is less likely to spin around their barrel from the pressure of the reins being pulled to the side, and you can drape the outside line around their rump and use it to help control their hip as they are learning. Another major difference between riding and driving as Amy alluded to is the lack of leg aids. You should have a whip in your hand at all times that you can use to tickle the horse's ribcage and invite them to move over or step under themselves with that hind leg in conjuction with your rein aids. It's an important tool in driving, or it certainly should be. If your goals don't involve competition then there's no reason you can't teach your mare a more low-key style of driving in which case you probably won't use the whip as much and may prefer to teach her to simply "step through the inside rein" more like a single draft turnout or as in the breed shows where whips aren't the norm. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as long as she stays balanced through the turns rather than falling through her inside shoulder.

We are concerned with balance even (or perhaps especially) in a recreational driving horse because balance is what keeps the horse on their feet. A balanced horse can make tight turns on a narrow trail calmly and easily, can trot sure-footedly through slick or uncertain footing, and can stop and start with less strain on the body because they are using all the power of their hind end to carry their weight. A balanced horse will stay sounder, longer, and enjoy their work. "Balanced" isn't a scary high-tech term, it simply means that at all times the horse has their legs under them and their body relaxed enough to quickly step further under themselves if they need to-- a tense horse will hollow his back, raise his head to the outside and throw himself through his turns shoulder-first and then become even more frightened because the experience of falling blindly through a corner is quite unsettling to an animal for whom falling equals death.

If the horse stays relaxed through the ribcage they can arch it and bring their head around to see where they are going as well as allowing that hind foot to step up under them and take their weight squarely. Especially when you add the shafts into the equation, I feel we owe it to our horses to show them how to do it calmly no matter what their driving style!

One last note about bending. If your horse decides to spook at something by the side of the trail your response is going to be a bit different when driving than it might have if you were riding. With a driving horse suddenly scooting sideways is very, very dangerous and we don't have that outside leg to keep the horse on a straight line. The urge is to try and hold them close to the object with the inside rein but you'll find this almost never works. They'll give you their neck alright, then continue to leap away through the outside shoulder with the shafts poking them all the way and their little brains shut down. OH! What you need to remember is the rein does not control the head. It controls the shoulder, and whichever way you push the withers the head will swing the other way. So when they want to stare at something the right thing to do is half-halt on the opposite rein and push that wither over, bringing their head back into line and allowing the blinkers to block the sight of whatever is so distracting. Voila! Instant despooking. Remember to praise the horse liberally for being so brave and allow them some free rein to relax into as a reward. The more you try to hold in a nervous harness horse the more panicky they are going to get. It's much better to use half-halts rather than a steady pull!

Leia

 

[dangerranger]

Well that explains how Ive had the horse spin around and end up facing me while ground driving. I was only using the top rings. both times she ended up staring at me like "what do we do now?". since I didnt know eather I just walked around behind her and started her off again. DR.

 

[Chilli's Mum]

Thanks again Leia,

I have printed out your advice to check back on as we go. I am looking around for someone to help me long rein correctly as I think I'm a) lucky that my pony is so good and b) that I've probably been very lucky to get away with doing things so far. I love long reining her and we are having a great time walking out on the road BUT there have been a few moments when things could have easily gone wrong.

As I've said before I really underestimated the differences between riding and driving and I just can't seem to let go of the riding habits of a lifetime. Hopefully I can find someone to help me so I can do things properly and safely with my little girl

.

 

[Jill]

I know there's a range of experience on this board.

Some people who used to ride -- they used to ride a few times in their lives on dead broke horses

And, books and email... they help but there are a lot of people on this board who think they can read, watch a video and train a horse even though some of them never even drove a trained horse before. Worse, I think there are plenty who think they can read a couple message board threads and know all they need to know to train their horse.

If possible, I'd suggest working with a trainer, especially depending on your level of experience w/ young and untrained horses. If that is not possible, a good video and a book or two would for sure help.

The mistakes I think I've heard the most are people who spend a couple days ground driving and then hook the horse up. The name of the game starts with slow and steady (and I've got a hunch you know this to be true, but a lot of others don't.) If steps are skipped, once the horse has an issue later on, it's likely to be major and it will be very hard to fix if it is even fixable.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Me too! I rode Western--and the idea of constant pressure--however slight--on the bit is very different--a major paradigm shift one might say.

Remember that in Western you are using a curb bit with a long shank so holding pressure consistently would be very uncomfortable for the horse. In driving as in huntseat riding you are usually at least starting your horse in a snaffle or non-leverage bit (remember a broken mouth does not a snaffle make, it's the way the reins connect) and the pressure from your hand to the bit is 1-to-1. That makes for a big difference!

Your horse is aaaaaall alone up there without your hand guiding the reins. Now if you're driving down a country road with fences along either side that's probably fine as you can both see where you're going. And if your horse is supremely confident and happy-go-lucky as so many minis are you're probably fine too. But a green horse, nervous horse, or one who's in an open area with no idea where to go needs you to be there for them. Herd animals don't like to be alone in strange places! You need to be leading every minute even though you're behind them.

If possible find someone with an experienced driving horse that is used to contact and give them a test spin. Green horses will confuse the issue for you as they aren't used to contact either and may object at first but the experienced horse will look for it and get annoyed if you don't give it to him. Kody makes an excellent lesson horse for that as his frame absolutely falls apart if you aren't holding contact but he collects easily and cheerfully the minute you take up the rein. He also shows every one of MY faults very clearly, but that's another lesson!

Leia

 

[hobbyhorse23]

and the pressure from your hand to the bit is 1-to-1. That makes for a big difference!

Leia--could you explain this a bit more. What do you mean by 1:1? Do you mean a direct contact?

A leverage bit is just that- something that applies force through leverage. That long shank on a Western bit allows for just a tiny adjustment in the drape of the reins to cause a big reaction by the time it reaches the horse's mouth. With a snaffle (meaning non-leverage bit) what the horse feels is exactly as much pressure as you applied with your hand. So if you've left that rein dangling...you aren't going to be able to send a signal without reeling up all that rein until you have actual contact.

Now there's all sorts of other factors involved regarding how Western horses are trained versus driving horses, using Liverpool or other curb bits while driving, the additional weight of the driving reins themselves, all sorts of things. But my point here is that holding consistent strong contact with a snaffle bit is not going to be uncomfortable for the horse like it would be with a long-shanked Western leverage bit. Hardy Zantke always describes good contact as holding hands with a dance partner to guide each other rather than shoving someone around a dance floor. That contact can be a subtle, rich, rewarding, organic thing between two partners.

Leia

 

[wildoak]

Wow, excellent thread. Great posts Leia, you have drawn me a picture of exactly what I need to be doing, although I'm already in the cart with my gelding. He - and all of my horses - tend to drop a shoulder when turning, obviously ME since they all tend to do it and I know that but it's taken hearing it 100 different ways to finally begin to master doing it right!

I did the transition from riding thing a number of years ago - it does get easier once you figure out what to do with your legs LOL and how to compensate with your hands!

Jan

 

[Chilli's Mum]

Pheew! It's good to know that I'm not alone in struggling with the transition to driving! I am having a much better time of things long reining now although I struggle with coordinating things when we trot. How on earth our horses manage four legs and all our various aids amazes me since I apparently can't manage two legs, a whip and two reins unless we are trotting in a straight line!

After much searching I have met up with someone who drives standardbreds and he has been a BIG help although we suspect the gear setup will be different once I get harness and a vehicle for my mini. We went for my first drive yesterday and after the first 10 seconds of terror I loved it

It was so much easier with a trained horse of course but the thrill was AMAZING and I am totally hooked. I can't honestly say I'd want to ride again after that experience - I could see so much more of what the horse was doing and it seemed so much freer somehow.

I did ask him if his horses try to stop for snacks and you should have seen the look on his face! Of course the answer was no! I'm still trying to find carriage driving people to help with the next stage of my training but no-one seems interested in helping so far

Bit sad when you think I was handed the reins of a horse who has won over $100,000 in races with no worries while the "carriage" horses are too precious to teach someone on. I do understand to an extent but how is someone supposed to learn???

 

[carlenehorse]

Leia thank so much for all the information I have saved every bit of your comments. I am now driving my mare I ground drove her for about 3 months before putting the cart on her. I did the same thing by putting the long reins at the top of the surcingle.

No wonder she kept turning around to me. She is a cuddlebug and loves to be next to me. I finally got her to stop doing that but it would have been so much better is I would have had the reins in the proper position.

This is great to know because I am going to start my other mare this spring.

Carlene

 

[hobbyhorse23]

I'm still trying to find carriage driving people to help with the next stage of my training but no-one seems interested in helping so far

Bit sad when you think I was handed the reins of a horse who has won over $100,000 in races with no worries while the "carriage" horses are too precious to teach someone on. I do understand to an extent but how is someone supposed to learn???

Oh dear. It sounds like we just haven't found you the right people yet! What area of the country are you located in? Have you joined the CD-L yet? That list is incredible for networking and I'm sure they could find you some driving buddies or an instructor.

I know I'm much more careful of who I let drive Kody than I would be if I had a straight-line trotter because A) as a dressage horse he makes things more confusing for a new driver as he's looking for multiple cues and it's not always obvious what he's responding to, B) he's easier to mess up, and C) he's got a short temper for bad rein handling and will tend to rear or take control and walk off if you don't handle him right! LOL. What we need to find you is someone who has a laid-back school master you can learn on instead of a young competition horse they're being careful of. They're out there, trust me. Keep looking!

Leia

 

[Chilli's Mum]

Hi Leia,

I do understand about people not wanting to upset their horses, it's just hard when I'm trying to learn. I live in Australia and I have been emailing and phoning all the people on the Equestrian Federation website in the Carriage Driving branch. I haven't been able to find anyone in my State who drives minis although I have heard there are some bu they must be hiding!

L'il Beginnings is the first website I have found that is dedicated to minis and has quite a few people who drive. It is very frustrating when I'm so keen! I am also struggling to find a vehicle manufacturer or even a second hand vehicle for my mini ARRGGHH! I have got so desperate I am considering importing one from the US. I want a nice vehicle but it doesn't have to be show quality. There is one coachbuilder in another State but the vehicles are all steel and I'm not keen on the design. Since I'm only wanting to buy one, I'd rather pay a bit more for the perfect one (if that makes sense).

It's strange that the harness is easily available but the vehicles are few and far between!