Help Needed with driving gelding

[hobbyhorse23]

I needed to hear that you thought my driving was Ok I got bashed a while back by a breed show driver(not on this forum!!) who said I used my whip too much to guide him a whip was only to be used occasionally to ask him to speed up and that I should have very tight reins and mine were too loose. I was thrilled when you said you liked my driving I needed that!!

You've got the basics sweetie, which is the right attitude and approach. Sure there's things we could tweak that might make your drives a little smoother...who doesn't have those issues??

Ask my trainer, she has to beat sense into me on a regular basis.

What you ran into with that breed show driver is a difference in styles, goals and approach. I know you lean more towards the carriage driving and it is absolutely appropriate to use your whip to guide the horse in that style of driving. There's also a big difference between "tight reins" and "contact." You may need a little more contact, but tight reins don't do anyone any good! Poor horses.

It should be a sensitive living connection at all times, responsive and soft.

You said he is a little gem. Why?? What do you see?? I need a fresh prospective on him and I have got so many helpful ideas from this post!! Things I had never thought of because I couldn't see beyond the box I had put him in in my mind. I need to go look at him again with new eyes and see if we can make a fresh go at this!! Or find someone else who can help him reach his potential!!

I bolded that line above because I'm so impressed that you see that. GOOD FOR YOU!! One of the hardest things about learning to see our horses in a new light is to recognize that we may not be seeing them clearly to begin with. This is a lesson I've had drilled into me repeatedly by experiences with Spyderman and Kody. Every time, and I do mean every time I've thought they were being unreasonable and stupid and given in to the urge to get angry and punish them I've found out later they had a perfectly good reason for feeling the way they did and I'm the one who came across as crazy in my behavior. After enough painful lessons, I think I've finally learned.

Take it from another angle too- how many stories do we all know of little girls who took horses adults scoffed at and turned them into champions simply by believing they could be? It's amazing what a little faith can do for someone.

You ask why I think this horse is a gem. I don't know for sure that he is, but it's the feeling I got from what you've said so far and what I saw in the video. Here's a little horse who's probably in pain, never really had a special person of his own or anyone who gave him reason to believe humans are going to watch out for him, maybe hasn't really understood what's been asked of him all this time, and he's still got the courage to tentatively try and connect with you. Many horses are broken by experiences like he's apparently had but he's strong enough to still retain that sense of self and what's right and wrong and be willing to fight for his own rights. At the same time, it sounds like he's kind enough to restrain himself when he senses you're listening to him and try to figure it out together. Without seeing him I can't say if that reading is right, but it's the feeling I get and I always give them the benefit of the doubt in cases like this.

Actually, given that description he reminds me a lot of Kody!

Maybe that's why I like him.

Consider also that even if he wasn't objecting to trimming because of pain in the first place, being hog-tied probably wrenched his back something awful. And if he was in pain to start with? Good lord, no wonder he doesn't trust anyone. He's trying to say he hurts and they respond by saying "we don't care" and throwing him to the ground.

Poor horse!

Leia

P.S.- How big is Joe? What registries?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Great post, Amy!

When my horse started to balk, she had me step out of the cart, cluck once, and if I didn't get a reaction give a whip tap. The tap should be as soft as it can be to get a reaction. Once you get the reaction, praise, praise, praise! Once they are reacting instantly to the cue, you can get back in the cart. This really is a HUGE safety issue. Your horse HAS to move forward on cue, and also halt and stand. If you have these two things you can get yourself out of trouble pretty easily.

This is good advice overall but MGRanch please be aware that stepping out of the cart is considered extremely dangerous by most carriage drivers. You give the horse the ability to pull the reins out of your hands and take off with the cart attached as well as inviting the balking horse to back over you with the vehicle or whirl blindly over top of you or otherwise injure you severely. You also can't use your whip properly from that position with a lot of full-sized gigs and other tall vehicles. Obviously we get away with a lot of things with our little guys (gosh knows I ground-drive with the cart attached sometimes) but we really shouldn't. Just FYI!

One more thing I noticed is that you are allowing way to much slack on your outside rein when you turn. By allowing this, your horse falls down on his forehand and loses balance. Keep some feel on the outside rein, and if you see the outside shoulder pop out, take more feel. Get your direction going by squeezing and releasing on the inside rein. Make sure he "stands up" through his turns, diving and leaning is one of the hardest things to train out of them once they establish that is the way to do it. Make big wide sweeping turns with a green horse, nothing too tight.

That's one of those "little issues" I'd noticed.

Instead of using the whip on the outside take a firmer hold of your outside rein and squeeze and release in time with his steps to keep his head and neck in line instead of letting him fall out through the shoulder and overbend. Think of it as using your outside leg while riding, trying to keep the hip and shoulder in line and the body gently arched instead of bent at right angles around the shaft.

Leia

 

[mininik]

Yep, ground driving Miniatures with the cart is great... until it isn't. I had done it for years when I was working a seasoned driving horse that way at a show a couple years ago and he didn't spook or anything, but I got a little too focused on him and not where the cart was and WHAM, I was under it with my knee dislocated. Had the horse not been so level headed I could have been injured even more than I was. I was laying under the cart, helpless, unable to do anything but hang on to the reins and hope he didn't freak out, back over me, take off and endanger himself or anyone else. Thank goodness there were others around who were able to take care of the situation for us. They had to pick the cart up off of me and carry me away.

 

[mgranch]

P.S.- How big is Joe? What registries? Joe is permenent with AMHA at 33" he is also Pinto registered. I so wish I could get to Leia or Amy or any of the other drivers that are somewhat near me for lessons!! I am self taught and I love to drive but could use some fine tuning help for sure!! I belong to a local Horse and Carriage Society and we do tons of playdays and trail drives and weekend campouts but not very much of the fine tuning driving I so need. You are right Leia I don't do much with arena driving I am a trail driver and our local club is starting HDT's next year so I am very excited about that!! That's really what I want to do. I do need help with my reins and getting my horses driving from the rear, on the bit and their headset right. We start our own horses and do everything but we need help getting them finished!! There is a big difference between training a plow horse and having a finished fine carriage horse!! Hey Leia If I can figure out how I'll post a pic of me and Lil in our new Hyperbike!! Amy thanks I know that breast collar isn't working and I didn't realize my saddle was to far forward I will move it back!! I know my reins aren't great I will work on what you said!! In our defense that turn is on pavement that is very slick and it slants downwards very steeply and at the bottom is a deep ditch!! I have had a horse plunk us in that ditch more than once!! Joe is very green and still can't seem to figure out the whole holding the cart back thing. But, he doesn't panick and he will learn in time!! The town of Bonanza that we live in is our arena!! LOL

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, I agree completely with the others...if you do not have the time or the money to do a complete fix at the moment.....don't!!!

Stop getting into the mind fix that comes with a bit of panic, there is nothing at all in the rules that says all problems must be fixed NOW!!!

In fact I would think you would all benefit from a rest.

Turn him out, give him the rest of the winter off and make sure you keep his back nice and warm at all times.

By the time Spring rolls around everything may have changed, you may have the money for a Chiropracter, you may find his attitude has settled, you may have found a trainer near you (although myself, I think you are doing fine and apart from a few harness changes, I do think you can handle this)

I say again, horses are very very rarely stubborn, mean or lazy for no reason.

Sit down, take a deep breath and look back at the history of your "Monster child".

He has always been a problem.

Maybe he has always been in pain??

OK, that's done, it's past, can't change it, my love, you can only change the future.

No point thinking you have been mean to him not realising, you looked after him as well as you possibly could, you did not reject him, you did what you thought was right and, when things went wrong, you stepped up to the plate and took him back.

Right now he could be on a boat to Puerto Rico , but for you.

So, you missed the big picture whilst looking at the smaller one, so what???

You have done a good job here, and you are still doing one, now, instead of taking each problem as it comes, step back and look at all the pieces.......

If we get involved in "nagging" at one another every now and again, please don't take it personally, we tend to wander off subject and start talking generically and forget there is actually a real live person in there!!!

So, sorry about that!!!

We are behind you, in general, we are just mildly disagreeing (and believe me this is VERY mild) about how the problems should be faced.

I would stop trying, now, and just come back to it fresh in the Spring.

Everything looks better with a blue sky!!!

 

[mgranch]

Just for fun here is a pic of my Lil and me in our new Hyperbike!! Thank You Jane I so appreciate your support!! I really appreciate you thinking I can handle this myself that makes me feel more confident in myself and my abilitites!! I can handle Joe no problem just have to remember it is not a race and we both need to go slow. I can lose my way if I get too overwhelmed but now with everyone's help and great support I know we are fine and I will work on the things I need to do and give us both a chance to start over. So, this is my plan. First get another breastcollar and move my saddle back. But before I drive him again I will get a chiropractor out. I think I want to learn some clicker training and work with him on the ground for a while just playing and getting comfortable together. Teeth are on the schedule for Spring. I agree Jane the biggest thing I have to let go of is the Monster Child image I hold of him and start to see him as the trying hard to please me little horse he really is today. Yes, I still see flashes of the bad Joe now and then but rather than panicking I need to just recognize that they are becoming fewer and farther between all the time and will disappear completely in time when he trusts me and isn't in pain and he can then learn to enjoy things!! Your words of comfort and support meant the world to me!! I can't change the past I can only make the future as good as it can be!! Thanks for being there for me as always!!! Gina

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Just remember, the "Bad Joe" moments are a defensive mechanism he developed to cope with Bad Things, not willful naughtiness. It is HARD to let go of defensive habits!!

We all, human or horse, developed them for a reason and it takes a tremendous leap of faith to let those go and risk being hurt. Just be patient with him and remind him when he does those things that you're listening to him now and will take all the time he needs so those behaviors aren't necessary anymore. Be patient and still and wait him out then praise, praise, praise when he makes an effort to move past it and respond correctly. You've obviously already been doing a great job, just keep it up.

It sounds to me, Ms. Gina, like Joe may be your Learner Horse. Those who are very lucky get one of these in their lifetimes...the tough one that drives you to tears then drives you past them and forces you to open yourself to new ways of doing things. Some things can only be learned the hard way and what you learn from him and with him will benefit every horse you work with after this as well as make you a better, deeper person. Spyderman was that horse for me, the one who taught me that there is always a reason and that most bad behavior comes from mental and emotional pain, and I haven't been the same since he and I took that Journey together. The road was much smoother with Kody for being able to apply those lessons.

If you have some spare time (ha, I know) this winter you might look into a couple of books. Try Linda Kohanov's "The Tao of Equus" and one called "Healing Shine," by Michael Johnson. I think you'll find yourself going "Oh my God, that's me!"

It is the difficult horses who have the most to give.

Leia

P.S.- You might tighten your breeching a little bit on Lil. Looks like the shafts are able to swing a bit further forward than we'd like on that downhill.

In general I'm quite impressed with your harnessing! Everything looks basically correct on both horses.

 

[mgranch]

Just remember, the "Bad Joe" moments are a defensive mechanism he developed to cope with Bad Things, not willful naughtiness. It is HARD to let go of defensive habits!!

We all, human or horse, developed them for a reason and it takes a tremendous leap of faith to let those go and risk being hurt. Just be patient with him and remind him when he does those things that you're listening to him now and will take all the time he needs so those behaviors aren't necessary anymore. Be patient and still and wait him out then praise, praise, praise when he makes an effort to move past it and respond correctly. You've obviously already been doing a great job, just keep it up.

It sounds to me, Ms. Gina, like Joe may be your Learner Horse. Those who are very lucky get one of these in their lifetimes...the tough one that drives you to tears then drives you past them and forces you to open yourself to new ways of doing things. Some things can only be learned the hard way and what you learn from him and with him will benefit every horse you work with after this as well as make you a better, deeper person. Spyderman was that horse for me, the one who taught me that there is always a reason and that most bad behavior comes from mental and emotional pain, and I haven't been the same since he and I took that Journey together. The road was much smoother with Kody for being able to apply those lessons.

If you have some spare time (ha, I know) this winter you might look into a couple of books. Try Linda Kohanov's "The Tao of Equus" and one called "Healing Shine," by Michael Johnson. I think you'll find yourself going "Oh my God, that's me!"

It is the difficult horses who have the most to give.

Leia

P.S.- You might tighten your breeching a little bit on Lil. Looks like the shafts are able to swing a bit further forward than we'd like on that downhill.

In general I'm quite impressed with your harnessing! Everything looks basically correct on both horses.

Thanks Leia I know that you are completely right!! I know that if I push myself with Joe and work thru all of this it will make me such a better horse women in the long run. Also, it will so build my self confidence!! I hate to admit this but he does scare me a bit so I have to force myself to leave Lil in the pen and take Joe out instead. I would be so proud of myself if I were to push past my fears and buckle down and work with Joe. Any ideas on where to get these books?? I would love to read them!! Since we don't have access to trainers here I love to read or watch videos to learn more for myself and my horses. It is my escape from work and family!! LOL So, not to push my luck here with even more questions but tighten up my breeching how?? Also, I have been told my shafts are a little too high and forward on the shoulder but I sent pics to Bob and he didn't think so. What do you think?? How would I fix that?? And finally should my legs be out further?? Am I setting in the cart ok?? Thanks for the thumbs up on my harnessing!! That has been the hardest thing to figure out on my own!! I have looked at pics and asked a million questions on forums and worked like crazy to figure it out!! Is my saddle too far forward on Lil too?? Please tell me what else you see I don't get my feelings hurt I am desperate to learn to do this right!! There are very few mini drivers in my area and the couple that are here won't use breeching so I have figured this out on my own. I use sidecheck because I have read and don't like overchecks. So, tell me how to be totally correct please!! I'll love you forever!! LOL Gina

 

[MiLo Minis]

In regards to shortening the breeching: if you look at the photo the shafts are ahead of the point of her shoulder and the traces are really drooping which means that the breeching has allowed the cart to push too far forward before stopping it. That means there is too much gap between her butt and the breeching when it is not in play. Take an extra wrap or two around the shaft when you tie your breeching on so that the strap is a bit snugger around her butt - should be able to fit a couple fingers or so in there but no more.

 

[Carriage]

Miss Gina, looking at the pic again I would say that you can move the stirrups out and away from you a little. This would make the HyperBike more comfortable for you. Wrapping you legs around the heater more is nice on a cold day as well........

The reason we want bend in the leg is because of the exposed stirrup. Should the stirrup run into a solid object we want the "give" in the bent knee as opposed to your hip.

I will leave the harnessing questions to the experts, like Miss Leia, as she has much time in grade on the HyperBike and knows and understands the 'Bikes many differences as compared with more traditional rigs. Also with the amount of adjustability built into the rig it is difficult to get the right "look" for all animals and body types. We try to focus on ergonomics and performance. Miss Liea has been a Godsend specific to information and feedback along these lines.

I like Miss Terry's hat slogan.

"Drive like you stole it"

Bb

Graham Carriage Works

www.grahamcarrigeworks.com

 

[mgranch]

Thanks Bob!! I do think my legs should be out further too but my husband says my legs are so long and my horse is so short my legs will be out further than her nose!! I am going to have him help me adjust my stirrups!! I do think I will have a hard time resisting the urge to put my leg on her to turn when my legs are right at her shoulders!! LOL I love my Hyperbike it is so wonderful for Lily!! Because she is so tiny and refined she had a hard time with EE carts. Now, she can do anything we want to do in her Hyperbike it is so light and easy for her to manuever that she doesn't even know she's hitched til I reach out and scratch her hinny!! Wow, that always surprises her!! Lori, I see now what you are saying about that trace hanging down. I hadn't noticed that!! Thanks I will wrap her breeching straps tighter!!

 

[Keri]

I worked with a friends 12 year old gelding last fall. He was broke to drive, but the first owner let him get away with basically anything in the cart. He would not whoa. Then he went to a trainer and was shown in everything but cart. Good boy most of the time, but he had a bad habit of pawing and just being impatient. So I started him back with ground driving. He ground drove beautiful for months and whoaed (and stood) for a long time. Then I hooked him to the cart and ground drove him. I noticed as soon as the cart was on him, he changed (just something snapped and he tried reverting back to his old ways). I ground drove him and work with him and what not for a long time. Every day he was hooked to the cart, we started back at step one (whoaing and behaving in the cart). And I eventually did drive him. But it was always everyday wondering if he was going to behave. At the end of the spring, I gave him back to my friend. Told her that she should not drive him (she's a more timid driver and doesn't need a bomb waiting to explode).

So the moral here, I could make him drive. But he was older, got away with everything, that it was a ton of work just to get him somewhere every time I wanted to drive. Not all horses are meant to be cart horses. It doesn't matter what some people say (every horse will drive). Stop driving your guy and start back at the beginning. If he doesn't respond good, then just chalk it up as he isn't cut out to drive. There is no shame in that. Minis have other potentials other than cart horses.

Hang in there!

 

[mgranch]

Thanks Keri!! I guess that is exactly where I'm at with Joe. I can work with him and he may become a wonderful cart horse but I have three others who love to be with me and do anything I ask and he is so difficult!! All we really do is drive so I have no use for a non driving horse. I appreciate the reminder that not all horses are meant to drive and that is OK. I may just part with him and focus on my others who are so wonderful and deserve all my time and attention!! That would take a world of stress off my shoulders!!

 

[Carriage]

Minis have other potentials other than cart horses.

Hang in there!

Perhaps, but not from our perspective............ wink<G>

Bb

Graham carriage Works

www.grahamcarriageworks.com

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hey, sorry it took me so long to respond this time. I went over to a friend's house Friday night, got stuck in the snow/ice/slush thaw and didn't get home until Sunday!

Any ideas on where to get these books?? I would love to read them!! Since we don't have access to trainers here I love to read or watch videos to learn more for myself and my horses. It is my escape from work and family!! LOL

"Tao of Equus" is available on Amazon.com, "Healing Shine" I found on Hoofprints.com and also on the author's website here.

So, not to push my luck here with even more questions but tighten up my breeching how?? Also, I have been told my shafts are a little too high and forward on the shoulder but I sent pics to Bob and he didn't think so. What do you think?? How would I fix that?? And finally should my legs be out further?? Am I setting in the cart ok?? Thanks for the thumbs up on my harnessing!! That has been the hardest thing to figure out on my own!! I have looked at pics and asked a million questions on forums and worked like crazy to figure it out!! Is my saddle too far forward on Lil too?? Please tell me what else you see I don't get my feelings hurt I am desperate to learn to do this right!! There are very few mini drivers in my area and the couple that are here won't use breeching so I have figured this out on my own. I use sidecheck because I have read and don't like overchecks. So, tell me how to be totally correct please!!

Gina, you're doing a great job.

MiLo perfectly answered your question about the breeching so I'll hit the rest of these. Your shafts, in that photo, do appear a little high on the body. But I think that's due to a couple of things- first, the Hyperbike itself. The shafts on a Hyperbike almost always appear to be sitting a bit high because of the way they curve up from the frame. It's worse on Lil because she's so tiny...she's just plain going to sit low between those shafts. The second reason she looks that way is because that photo is seems to have been taken on a downhill slope, making the horse sit lower relative to the cart than she normally would. Is the 'Bike itself balanced at that height? Does it show any signs of shifting up over her back as she leans into the shafts for a turn? If yes and no, respectively, then you're probably fine. If you don't already have it on the lowest wheel callouts then you can drop it down another notch, if it's as low as it's going to go I'd say you're fine, just not ideal. I think when you're moving forward your shaft tips are probably in the right place but are too far forward in that photo because the cart has rolled up. Tightening the breeching will fix that.

You appear to be sitting fine and where you put the stirrups is up to you. You want to keep some bend in your knee for the reasons Bob stated and also because that allows you to brace properly and balance through turns like a snowboarder, by bending your knees and leaning. I keep mine almost uncomfortably tight because I'm using my cart on marathon where it's amazing how quickly your legs seems to shorten as centrifical (centrifugal?) forces push you back into your seat through those fast hazard turns.

If I were only trail driving with it I'd let them out a bit so it was more comfortable. The further your leg is up the horse's side, the less of the horse is visible, but most of us bought the Hyperbike for performance and comfort for our horses, not for looks. It's up to you!

Your saddles might be a hair too far forward but nothing atrocious. Go ahead and experiment with moving them back a bit and see what happens. That's not a fair photo to judge Lil's from as again she's downhill and the saddle is doing the braking so it's probably pushed up a bit.

If you're doing ADS stuff and not breed shows you really don't need a check at all. Get rid of them! Your horses will thank you. Joe especially is going to need a lot of long-and-low stretching work once his back is fixed and he can't do that in a check, even a loose one.

I will leave the harnessing questions to the experts, like Miss Leia, as she has much time in grade on the HyperBike and knows and understands the 'Bikes many differences as compared with more traditional rigs. Also with the amount of adjustability built into the rig it is difficult to get the right "look" for all animals and body types. We try to focus on ergonomics and performance. Miss Leia has been a Godsend specific to information and feedback along these lines.

It's been fun Bob, I've really enjoyed it. You know how much I love tweaking harness!

Leia

 

[mgranch]

Thanks Leia!! Got the books ordered!! Also, I agree with you I think my bike fits pretty darn good for as tiny as Lil is!! I am in the lowest wheel callouts Bob had it set up for me when it came. I agree I do like more of a bend in my knees than some people I've seen in the Bike it makes me feel a little more secure to brace myself. Lil scoots along in it so fast I swear sometimes she is going to slide me right out of the seat!! It is very fun!! Also, you are right I need to loose the checks!! I don't show breed shows so why do I have checks on?? Thanks so much Leia for everything I so appreciate all of your help!!

Perhaps, but not from our perspective............ wink<G>

Exactly Bob!!!