Gelding my aged stallion

[MOJO]

What a nightmare of a morning...after much consideration and reading all the good posts about gelding aged stallions...I finally made the decision to have my 11 year old stallion gelded. I still have a mare and a filly, just not interested in breeding anymore. So, to make his life less frustrating the appointment was made for this morning. Doc arrived at 10 am proceeds to do her exam all is good so it's a go. First IM tranq around 10:30, next IV 10:45, another IM, says she's going for another shot. OK this will be the 4th so I'm asking about the safety of this, she assures me it is ok just will be down longer after the surgery. This fellow is still standing and aware, yes he's groggy but aware of what's going on around him. The vet decides to get shot 5 ready, says she's going to try something different, because he had maxxed out the safe dosage on what was already being used.

I'm about to have heart failure at this time because I'm afraid it's going to kill him...she assures me it's safe, so after she injects him with this one she informs me that if this doesn't do it she will have to come back on Monday. It is now 2 hrs after his first injection and this doesn't do it either, at 1:30 she says she will come back Monday morning and start off with a double dose right off the bat and he should go down. I told her no, I feel this is way to soon after all of this to even consider tranquilizing him again. I just came from the barn to check on him and he is still snoring, still intact, and I think he will just stay that way, it is 3 hours after the last injection. I have no idea when he is going to wake up.

I was just trying to make his life easier and look where he is, I could kick myself. It would be different if he was an aggressive stallion, but he is such a good fellow, a handful when amorous but not a mean bone in his body. I am so sorry I put him through this.

 

[ohmt]

We had a little bit of trouble with our 16 yr. old stallion that we gelded a few months ago. He had a reaction to one of the meds the vet gave him and it looked like he was having a seizure. Vet said it was not life threatening, but that he'd be sore from all the muscle spasms. Poor little guy. He also woke up for the last couple of minutes-that almost made me cry. Vet wouldn't give him any more meds because of his age and also because of his bad shoulders. After all of that, he stood up, paced his stall a few times and started eating his hay. He had little bleeding, no swelling, and healed very well. He is now running around with my mares and foals and will be the youngun's 'nanny' this winter. He is SO much happier being able to run around and have friends. Despite the setbacks, I am very happy with my decision to have him gelded at his age.

I am very sorry about the setbacks you are having with your boy. Have a talk with your vet when your boy is awake and you've had time to calm down a little. Talk to the vet about a 'plan' to have IF you should decide to give it another go. You can set limits and the vet can prepare and I'm sure it'll make you feel better. Then make a positives and negatives list...they always help

HUGS!

 

[txminipinto]

WHY was she giving anesthetics IM?? Of course he was still standing! There is NO REASON NOT to give anesthetics IV. As an anesthesia technician at a vet school, I would love to know what she was injecting and the volumes of such. Many vets either under estimate or over estimate miniature horse weights with horrible outcomes.

Our standard protocol is xylazine IV, head to knees, Ketamine PLEASE.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

I was present at an attempted gelding. The vet gave the horse as much as was safe and there was no sign of him going down. He sent the horse home and told the owner he would call the OSU animal center, order a special "cocktail" and make a new appointment.

There was no more trouble after that. The hrose came through fine and all is well.

Do you have someone else who could stay with the horse during the surgery? If I have to do another, I think I will ask my husband to go with the horse, and I will wait at home to take care of followup care.

 

[MOJO]

Thank you ohmt for your kind thoughts. Carin, around her it is common practice to start with xylazine IM, wait for woozy the go to the Ketamine cocktail IV. I've assisted on quite a few castrations, and only saw this when a generic was used. I don't have the "list" of drugs used but plan to get a copy. I think this needs to be in his record in the event he needs to be tranqued in the future. I think she waited too long after the IM injection, to come back with the IV Ketamine. I did the weight equation and came up with 400 lbs ahe taped him at 415 and dosed to that. He is definately no cheap date. I have lost faith in this doctor, she was not as prepared as she should have been, which I think caused her to lose the opportunity to begin with, idk, it was just bad...any idea how long it will take him to come out of it?

Carin am I right to think Monday is way too soon to consider another attempt?

 

[disneyhorse]

Sorry you had to go through that... I hope your guy recovers quickly. The nice thing about gelding is it is a one-time-ONLY sort of thing! I would find another vet to attempt it! That situation sounds highly odd to me... to sedate the horse so much and yet not proceed with the surgery???

I'm not sure why so many drugs had to be given... I've had a couple "fighters" (one a stallion that needed to be knocked out to have a tooth root pulled out, the other was a two-year-old colt that was being gelded) that had to have a little extra dose given but once they were knocked out they were down and out yet came to pretty quickly.

I also find it uncommon for a vet to leave an animal (small or large) still tranquilized. Mine have always stayed around to ensure the animal was up and functioning. Usually they recommend to keep the head up for a little bit (to prevent bleeding at the IV site I think?) and to remove food until they are pretty awake.

I did have a small animal vet release a still-sedated cat to me after an abscess flush, and I did NOT go back to that vet EVER. Very unprofessional.

I am fine with sedated animals, it's not traumatic to me and I've dealt with them quite a bit, but I also expect my vets to be professional about it too!

Hopefully you can find another vet to perform the procedure properly. I don't think your situation is the norm by any means.

Andrea

 

[MOJO]

Marsha, I don't have a problem being there for it. I kind of got tickled at that. I do appreciate the concern, but I worked for an equine vet for over 10 years and assisted on quite a few of these. I will admit it is much harder to deal with when it's your baby. Now having the background that I have, that's the reason I said no more. I knew we were treading into dangerous territory, I'm not a vet tech but she trained me pretty well.

The male side of this equation agreed to let me have him gelded and was willing to help, now with the problems... I have been told to never mention it again, lol. We'll see what happens, I know he'll be happier, but I need to interview some different vets.

 

[~Lisa~]

I had the exact same thing happen..we gelded an older stallion and no matter what the vet gave that horse would notgo out. We could get him down but within seconds before we could even clean the area he was way to awake.

The vet game him as much as he felt he safely could but this stallion was fighting way to hard. We waited (and yes he was very groggy for quite some time) for a few days brought him into the clinc where he felt he would be able to use different stronger drugs and have more options all the way around on hand and he was gelded successfully with no problems at all.

I was nervous at all the drugs given to him but trust this vet and said well I guess go till you feel you can not safely go more which is exactly what he did. Vet was pretty shocked that we could not get him out but whatever he did different at the clinic worked and all went off without a hitch.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

WHY was she giving anesthetics IM?? Of course he was still standing! There is NO REASON NOT to give anesthetics IV. As an anesthesia technician at a vet school, I would love to know what she was injecting and the volumes of such. Many vets either under estimate or over estimate miniature horse weights with horrible outcomes.

Our standard protocol is xylazine IV, head to knees, Ketamine PLEASE.

The most my vet does is 3 shots, all 3 IV. Most of the time it just takes 2 shots and they go down. If you do this again please find another vet I think giving it IM was a waste of shot IMO. I sure hope you didn't have to pay for all those shots.

 

[dannigirl]

I just told Dave about this and we are wondering why IM injection. Our vet has done many, many geldings here and always starts with injection IV and then another. Only time a third is used is on the really tough ones and then it is only a third.

 

[HGFarm]

I too wonder about the IM. Sorry it didnt turn out right today. I would check with some other vets and hopefully it will done soon without further trauma to the horsie owner, lol. It can sure be nerve wracking, eh?

 

[Minimor]

I agree - get a different vet for the next attempt. I've had a vet botch the drugs--we always give the rompun IV & then the ketamine. One vet, though, stuck the first needle in, got a vein in & then tried to shove it all in, without working the needle to make sure that it still had the vein. Horse got groggy, but when the ketamine needle went into his neck he went nuts. I was glad he was a small horse; a full size horse would have gotten away--the vet wanted to give more rompun but I said no--without a good explanation of what went wrong I wasn't going to give him any more drugs. I put him into a dark stall & let him settle down & left him there until the drugs wore off. A different vet later gelded him--gave him rompun and ketamine in the usual way and the horse responded exactly the way he was supposed to.

The vet I use now uses a little bit extra rompun and a little bit less ketamine--that eliminates the muscle spasms that the ketamine can cause. I know some vets will "top up" with ketamine only but the vet I like always uses some of both if a top up is necessary--I have seen it done both ways, and the second way is far better.

Some people seem to get away with using extra doses and then still more drugs....but sometimes it doesn't work so well. I've known two people that each lost a horse because the vet gave extra doses of drug when the horse wasn't responding to the initial dose. For me, if the horse gets to overdose level, that's it--he doesn't get any more. I am not taking the chance.

Mojo, has your fellow woken up by now?

 

[txminipinto]

First, you weight taped him at approximately 400lbs?? I'm very surprized at that. We did a loose research project weight taping minis that came in and then weighing them. The tape was always off around 50lbs which is a lot for that size animal. We raise shetlands and my 42" shetlands weigh about 350lbs. Is your guy obese? Reason I ask, if he's obese and she gave IM injections she probably injected into FAT which is why they didn't work/took a long time to work. And another excellent reason to give all sedatives and anesthetics in the vein.

2nd, always always sedate IV! IM takes way too long.

3rd, did he ever go all the way down? It was unclear in your post. If he just stood there with his head hanging, many vets leave. But if he actually went down I've never worked with a vet who would be comfortable leaving a horse under anesthesia unattended. So much could go wrong.

Monday should be fine for a 2nd attempt. That's more than 48 hours. Perhaps, she should try some dormosedan and ketamine or maybe add just a touch (1-2 mg) of ace. You can never really wait too long after xylazine but you can give the ketamine too soon. But when that happens you usually end up with a horse having a seizure. During anesthesia and following anesthesia it is normal to have some muscle tremors. That's not a seizure, just the metabolization of the anesthetics. We see it frequently with arabians.

On the heading holding, on a standing horse that has been heavily sedated they will hang their heads almost to the ground. If they are slow to recover, this will cause edema on the head and can be very painful when they recover. That's one of the reasons why we don't like to see their heads hang for long. Another side effect is bleeding of the nose.

 

[MOJO]

Thanks to all who replied to this post. My guy finally woke up enough to eat and drink around 6:30 this evening. I had been checking him every half hour and wetting his mouth and tongue the last hour and a half. He was able to move about around 5ish, but his head didn't rise above his knees.

I know some may not agree, but I would rather deal with the paceing and occassional screams than to risk losing him. I've owned him since he was a yearling and he has never been a problem. I just thought it would be easier on him to not have to deal with the hormones. I may try to find a gelding to put with him so he can have a companion...much to think about...he likes cows so may get a small steer to pasture with him, lol. long story, for another time.

 

[disneyhorse]

First, you weight taped him at approximately 400lbs?? I'm very surprized at that. We did a loose research project weight taping minis that came in and then weighing them. The tape was always off around 50lbs which is a lot for that size animal. We raise shetlands and my 42" shetlands weigh about 350lbs. Is your guy obese? Reason I ask, if he's obese and she gave IM injections she probably injected into FAT which is why they didn't work/took a long time to work. And another excellent reason to give all sedatives and anesthetics in the vein.

On the heading holding, on a standing horse that has been heavily sedated they will hang their heads almost to the ground. If they are slow to recover, this will cause edema on the head and can be very painful when they recover. That's one of the reasons why we don't like to see their heads hang for long. Another side effect is bleeding of the nose.

Thanks for the info on the head holding.

My Shetland pony is almost 46" tall and he weight tapes at 380 pounds. He's short backed but has a big body to him. I can't imagine a 400 pound mini! It would be like my guy, with legs chopped off at the knee!

Andrea

 

[MOJO]

Carin, I didn't see your post when I posted the other reply. Thanks for the info, I was getting very concerned about the head hanging so long. Yes he is overweight, I would say about 50 lbs or so, he's 36" tall. Just a very easy keeper, I did not know about the nose bleed possibility, I've never had this issue before. He was given the xylazine IM then I'm confused because she said one had ace, just not sure if it was in with the ketamine or the xylazine...dormosidan was in the last injection with another drug. I'm waiting for a reply from her, asked for a list of drugs and amounts for his records. I need that in case he ever needs to be put under for anything else.

He never went down fully, he kind of sat down twice and I would normally give a little push back and sideways to encourage the front down, she hollered when I tried to do it. She doesn't do it that way,hmmm. so I let her take the lead, he went down, almost on his side and she pulled his head up, I was ready to cushion his eye and cover the other and she pulled him up. That was my last straw. I did not allow any more drugs at that point. I'm upset with this doctor and will be looking for another.

 

[txminipinto]

I agree, find another doctor. Xylazine and Dormosedan are very similar drugs. So to give the full dose of one and then start giving another is very dangerous because they react to some of the same receptors in the body. It sounds like she prefers to do standing castrations which is fine if you are doing a full size horse and are comfortable with the drugs you are using. And perhaps, she could have done the surgery on your guy since he never went down. So I'm at a loss to what she was trying to accomplish with her protocol if she didn't want him to lay down! Ace would have normally been mixed with xylazine. I would be interested to know the combinations she used.

I think your guy would be much happier gelded, but I think YOU would be happier to find another vet to do it. Personally, I would not be comfortable castrating a much older stallion standing. They require more time in the emasculator and more sutures. It would be best if he was laid fully down to give the vet plenty of time to ligate.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this. Sometimes, SOME horses are resistant to some drugs. But in those cases, it is best to stop and try a different cocktail on another day.

 

[dannigirl]

If she wouldn't let him lay down, I am wondering if she has done a gelding before. My vet waits for them to start laying down and then encourages them to do so with me or Dave holding the rag to cover his eyes as soon as he is down. The vet will then wait until the little guy is not only up, but stumbling around a bit less and able to walk to his stall. Then we never give food of any kind for a minimum of 8 to 10 hours. (Usually overnight since vet usually gets here after 6 for geldings and anything not emergency) He says it won't hurt them, just make them more hungry at next feeding and that will ensure he is fully awake and not choke on the food.

 

[MOJO]

Thanks for all of your input Carin. I still haven't received the info from her. I did go out and tape him again (tape measure) and according to Lil beginnings info pages, his weight is approx 359 lbs. She did tape him at 415 and I'm not sure what happened with my calculations before she came, so I didn't argue with her findings..didn't work anyway. He's still overweight, but some have commented on just how huge he must be, I know he is overweight, she didn't think he was too fat tho'. I also did the weight by LB on a tall yearling filly and she is not overweight and she came in at 214 lbs, she is 34" tall.idk I don't worry too much about numbers, just how they look, and I like a body score around 6 with winter coming, the stallion will score an easy 7

She wasn't interested in doing it standing, I asked about aftercare and she said there would be no sutures, was told to just spray him with screw worm spray. I will be talking to some others and see how that goes. It's hard to move into an area and put your animals welfare into unknown hands.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Man, Mojo, that's a tough one! I'm sorry you had such a rough morning and agree completely with finding another vet. I've only had one horse gelded here (the others were already geldings when they arrived) and Kody fought it every step of the way. I'd gotten the feeling from him all along that he was absolutely NOT okay with the idea but went ahead anyway as there were many reasons to geld him and man I was in tears by the time it was over! He fought the vet, he fought the anesthesia, the vet couldn't get a vein for the second shot and spent forever trying to get a catheter in (causing lots of pain and bleeding that he clearly felt even through the light sedation), and then he absolutely refused to lay down. The vet finally decided to do him standing up but had trouble getting up there and it was just a mess. We all winced when at one point he lost his balance and stepped on one of his own testicles! No male should ever have to experience that indignity.

It was awful, completely awful, and I felt like a heel for weeks for putting him through it. Kody wasn't real happy either and gave me a cold shoulder for literally months. I've never seen a horse hold a grudge like that.

Someone who "talked" to him later explained that the idea of being a stallion, a herd leader and protector, was a huge part of his identity and he felt I'd betrayed him by going ahead with the procedure when I knew how he felt about it. It had nothing to do with the actual parts and everything to do with his sense of himself. Obviously that isn't an issue for most horses!

My current stud colt will need to be gelded next year and I'm not looking forward to it but he's the opposite of Kody. He's a gelding in a stallion's body! I'm not anticipating any problems with getting him done but will be very careful in my choice of vets and plan to listen to my instincts this time. If it doesn't feel right I'll call a halt!

Hope things go better for your boy next time with a different vet.

Leia