~feeding help needed~

[maplegum]

I need some advice on feeding please. Bailey is 5 months old. I have had him for 4 weeks now and in that time he has managed to develop quite the ‘hay belly’.

I am feeding him the same feed that they were using at the breeders. It’s called ‘Hi Pro Horse Developer’. As I am from Australia, most of you won’t recognise this name. Listed below are the contents.

.MICRONISED SOY BEAN FLAKES

.STEAM ROLLED BARLEY

.MICRONISED LUPIN FLAKES

.BLACK SUNFLOWER SEEDS

.CANOLA OIL

.HIGH MAINTENANCE HORSE PELLETS

.SPLIT FABA BEANS

.MOLASSES

.VITAMINS AND MINERALS

And the nutritional specifications:

. DRY MATTERS 90%

. CRUDE PROTEIN 25%

. ACID DETERGENT FIBRE 12.5%

. DIGESTIBLE ENERGY (M) OF DE/KG ) 16%

. MOISTURE 9.70%

It states on the brochure that it is good for the "preparation for the sale of weanling's and yearling's. Two and three year old horses in full work. Lactating brood mares."

I've been reading that a lack of protein can cause hay belly, but this feed is very high in protein.

I feed him one cup of this along with one cup of chaff (chopped hay) twice a day. I’ve been reading that some people feed twice the amount of grain/loose feed. He finishes every last drop of food in his bucket.

He has unlimited access to grass in his field, although the quality isn’t that good and there are really only small pickings available as we are in a drought. He also gets about one quarter of a biscuit of oaten hay at night when he is stabled/sheltered.

Could it be his oaten hay causing this? I considered getting Lucerne hay.

Please keep in mind when making suggestions on feeding that I am in another part of the world (Australia) and I can’t get the same feed that you can.

Thank you in advance.

 

[Debby - LB]

Hi :saludando: Your feed, although I don't have a bag here right now to compare, sounds like our "Calf Manna". Manna Pros Calf Manna is some wonderful stuff but I wouldn't feed it stand alone or increase/decrease it according to the horses body score, a cup of it (to me) would be too much for a 5 month old since it has so much protein.

If you can try to find a good broodmare and foal feed, something 12 to 14% protein and if you can something with like 7 or 8% fat because actually at his age a cup may be enough if he is worm free, it depends on his size and his metabolism.

If you are absolutely sure he is worm free, try to find a different feed and tweak it to his body condition. In my experience horses his age with what people call a "hay belly" are either wormy or not being fed enough. Feeding weanlings, yearlings has to be tailored to each ones individual needs, I have 2 yearlings and 1 two year old here right now that live together and the two yearlings are vastly different in their feed needs....one of them gets a quarter cup of soaked beet pulp and a half cup of pellets, and the other gets 3/4 cup of soaked beet pulp and a full cup and a half of pellets. If I give the first one more than a half cup he gets too fat quick!

I feel for body condition everyday, my horses must have flat backs, I do not want a crease but they must NOT have a backbone that I can easily feel. My horses I like to see with a nice layer of fat, but you will not see their belly sticking out when you look at them from the front or from the back. Good luck, sometimes it takes a while to get a good recipe but you'll see it and feel it when you do.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK for a start I doubt that is a hay belly.

I will ask again as it is easier than searching through do forgive me if you have said on another thread- how have you wormed him??

Also my weanlings get ad lib- and I do mean ad lib- hay- well, of course they get grass when they are first weaned as I have plenty at that time of year and this winter they have eaten very very little hay but it is still there, a bale at a time, for them to pick at as they please.

I often say i do not know what a hay belly is and I am not kidding- I have honestly never had one, I am not being "funny" here.

Ad lib hay means a possible large intake if you have a greedy horse for the first five days and then they stop.

And "graze".

The Crude Protein on your feed label actually means very little- feel free to ignore it as it includes everything that can be classed as protein irrespective of whether or not it can be digested by the horse!!

Look at the D.E- which in this case is 16% which is still quite high but not astronomical.

Is this presented as pellets or a "Mix"??

If a Mix this 16% will be fine as a feed for your colt, but you may want to phase it out and use a lower D.E one next time- he is weaned now and the digestive system is maturing.

So long as he is fully wormed- sorry again but did you have a faecal count done??- and well clear of round worms- which cause the pot belly in youngsters, you will see a difference once you up his hay .

The other thing I do with all my horses that others on this Forum do not seem to do- maybe it is a "European thing??"- is to mix chaff in with all the feeds and give what we call a "long feed"

All the Sugar Beet and chaff and mix goes in together and is mixed up and dampened down well- it takes my yearlings about an hour- maybe more- to eat their feed and the longer it takes the better as far as digestion is concerned.

I know it is in our nature to worry about them, but try not to- by all means ask questions, that is what we are here for and we will always help as much as possible, but you are on the right tracks, relax a little

:

 

[kaykay]

I think hes just not getting fed enough. I have never had a horse where one cup 2x per day was enough. A cup of feed is especially pelletted feed is just not very much at all. What size is he now??

 

[maplegum]

OK for a start I doubt that is a hay belly.

I will ask again as it is easier than searching through do forgive me if you have said on another thread- how have you wormed him??

Also my weanlings get ad lib- and I do mean ad lib- hay- well, of course they get grass when they are first weaned as I have plenty at that time of year and this winter they have eaten very very little hay but it is still there, a bale at a time, for them to pick at as they please.

I often say i do not know what a hay belly is and I am not kidding- I have honestly never had one, I am not being "funny" here.

Ad lib hay means a possible large intake if you have a greedy horse for the first five days and then they stop.

And "graze".

The Crude Protein on your feed label actually means very little- feel free to ignore it as it includes everything that can be classed as protein irrespective of whether or not it can be digested by the horse!!

Look at the D.E- which in this case is 16% which is still quite high but not astronomical.

Is this presented as pellets or a "Mix"??

If a Mix this 16% will be fine as a feed for your colt, but you may want to phase it out and use a lower D.E one next time- he is weaned now and the digestive system is maturing.

So long as he is fully wormed- sorry again but did you have a faecal count done??- and well clear of round worms- which cause the pot belly in youngsters, you will see a difference once you up his hay .

The other thing I do with all my horses that others on this Forum do not seem to do- maybe it is a "European thing??"- is to mix chaff in with all the feeds and give what we call a "long feed"

All the Sugar Beet and chaff and mix goes in together and is mixed up and dampened down well- it takes my yearlings about an hour- maybe more- to eat their feed and the longer it takes the better as far as digestion is concerned.

I know it is in our nature to worry about them, but try not to- by all means ask questions, that is what we are here for and we will always help as much as possible, but you are on the right tracks, relax a little

:

Jane,

He is due to be wormed again next weekend. That is 4 weeks since his last worming. I made the mistake of using EQUEST wormer then later read here how dangerous that can be. I will NOT be using that wormer again and now am much better educated on worming.

Do I do a fecal count before OR after worming him again? Also, it states on the package that the wormer is good for 14 - 16 weeks. Is it too soon to worm again after 4 weeks after using EQUEST?

And yes, I do mix his chaff into his grain mix along with a splash of apple cider vinegar and then i water the lot down too. Its common to feed that way here too in Australia.

This feed is in a 'mix' form.

Should I also be adding sugar beet to his diet?

I know, I am worrying about him. In all the years I had big horses, i NEVER put this much effort into their feeding program, or anything for that matter!! They were lovely healthy horses too!!

: Sometimes, less is better. (worry I mean)

Kay, you asked what size he is... I'm estimating around 40 - 50 kilos ..not sure of what that is in pounds. I'll measure him tomorrow using the method I learned here. I do have a weight tape but realise it's not suitable for mini's. He's 5 months old, 25 inches tall.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The one worming is not enough to clear a foal.

I would recommend you do a five day Fenbendazole course (Panacur) and do it now.

Then 10 days later deworm with Ivermectin and then eight weeks later Ivermectin again and so on every eight weeks.

The chemical lasts eight weeks there is nothing to be gained by deworming every four weeks you are just putting chemicals in them they do not need.

I would do a faecal now, before deworming and I would deworm accordingly BUT I would be wary of any faecal count that says my horse has no worms- I do not use a vet for this I send them off in the post and get a proper printed out assessment of which worms I should be covering.

In your case I would be almost certain he is carrying a roundworm burden- not terribly dangerous but they are not nice to deal with, you are feeding the worms and they cause the pot belly- best to be rid of them.

The Fenbendazole will do it.

 

[Girrawheen]

Maplegum I know exactly how you are feeling as I was also so confused when I first got Cobalt!!

:

It has literally been trial and error in regards to feeding, but I do finally feel happy with what I have chosen for Cobalt.

Maybe you could consider using Breed N Grow. I have listed the analysis so that Jane or someone else (who really understands all of this) can see if it may be a better alternative (it may very well be not). I posted pictures of Cobalt recently after his bath if people want to see his condition from using Breed N Grow.

I give 1 cup of Breed N Grow (pelleted feed) (twice a day) WITH

4 cups of oaten/lucerne chaff (twice a day)

ACV (twice a day)

Mineral supplement (AM)

1/4 cup speedi - beet (PM) (soaked makes 1 cup)

Garlic Flakes

Warm water to moisten at every feed

BREED N GROW

Analysis (As-Fed)

Crude Protein (minimum)…17%

Crude Fat (minimum)..4%

Crude Fibre (maximum)..15%

Salt (minimum added)..1.0%

Salt (maximum added)…1.25%

Copper (added)…40mg/kg

Selenium (added)..0.5mg/kg

Calcium (minimum)…1.2%

Calcium (maximum)…1.3%

Phosphorus (minimum)...0.7%

Lysine (minimum) ...0.75%

Magnesium (minimum)...0.3%

Potassium (minimum)…0.8%

Digestible Energy (estimated)..12.5MJ/kgVitamin A (added)..10500IU/kg

Vitamin D (added)…1050IU/kg

Vitamin E (added)..100mg/kg

Thiamin (Vit B1) (added)..6.5mg/kg

Riboflavin (VitB2) (added)…11mg/kg

Pyridoxine (VitB6) (added)…3.25mg/kg

Vitamin K3 (added)…5.5mg/kg

Vitamin B12 (added)...0.035mg/kg

Biotin (added)...0.125mg/kg

Folic Acid (added)..3.25mg/kg

Niacin (added)..33mg/kg

Calcium Pantothenate (added)…13.25mg/kg

Cobalt (added)...0.25mg/kg

Manganese (added)…75mg/kg

Ferrous Iron (added)…75mg/kg

Iodine (added)…1.25mg/kg

Zinc (added)…100mg/kg

I do not think Oaten hay would be a problem at all as I give Cobalt both Lucerne and Oaten hay (usually alternate days).

I also put out two biscuits of Lucerne or Oaten hay in the PM (after evening feed) and that is for mini mare, Cobalt (mini foal) and two Alpacas. They graze at all other times (although I do not rely on this, as the drought has left minimal pasture). I really do not know how much hay you should put out for Bailey at night. What I give my animals is working perfectly for them, but Bailey will obviously need less (but not sure how much).

Hope this helps a little.

:

:

I would do a faecal now, before deworming and I would deworm accordingly BUT I would be wary of any faecal count that says my horse has no worms- I do not use a vet for this I send them off in the post and get a proper printed out assessment of which worms I should be covering.

Ha Ha Jane she does not use same vet as me lol!

Do you send your samples off in the mail? I was told they have to be "fresh" as in, almost steaming lol! :bgrin

 

[Ashley]

I agree he isnt getting enough. I know what we feed is different but my two yearlings were up until a few weeks ago getting 2 -2.5 cups of Omolene 300(each) and one flake of hay for the two twice a day. I moved them down to Omolene 200. One is way to fat and sassy, the other is just right.

 

[Sanny]

I agree with what is already said......increase his feed, do the five day wormer with Ivermectin 10 days later and if he looks the same to you (pot belly) in a month then he might be going through an awkward growth stage but I would never assume that until you have tweaked his feed and given it a chance to show a difference (at least two weeks) and made absolutely sure he is clear of worms.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Yes there is little point to adjusting all the feed to have well fed worms!!!

My weaned foals get a good five cups- which is what my scoop holds I do not use cups as a measurement as it is way too small- of mix a day- twice that when newly weaned.

I prefer a mix to a feed supplement and so do the horses

:

 

[Marty]

I would recommend you do a five day Fenbendazole course (Panacur) and do it now.

Then 10 days later deworm with Ivermectin and then eight weeks later Ivermectin again and so on every eight weeks.

PLEASE take this advice. I am willing to bet that it's worms.

I do a 5 day purge with SAFEGUARD and oh brother, it will deflate that belly in a heartbeat and follow up with Ivermectin

 

[Jill]

In my experience with raising foals (a couple from "scratch" and quite a few from weanlings), I feel that many times hay bellies are truly from "too much" hay. Since I had my first weanling in 1999, we have not ever had any "big bellies" here, with the exception of sometimes letting the non-show horses get overall too fat.

I am very, very picky about the hay all of our minis get and it must be soft and leafy. Even so, for the younger horses, a bigger portion of their diet is from complete pellets (not sweet feed, I do not use any sweet feed on any horses). They digest the complete feed very well and mine never have "hay bellies". They do get hay, but it's a smaller percentage of their diet than so for the more mature, non-show horses. My show horses are fed a similar diet to the younger horses.

Another feed program that has worked well for my young horses is to give them soaked hay cubes and beet pulp vs. baled hay or only a small handful of baled hay with mostly soaked cubes and pulp. They have looked really good when fed this way.

What I basically think is that too coarse hay or even too much soft hay is hard for a young miniature to digest, and this causes them to look bloated ("hay belly").

Additionally, I feel that foals up to 12mos or a little more should be dewormed every 4wks, vs. every 6-8wks with more mature horses and am sure to use a broad range dewormer (ivermectin based).

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Well I can only speak as I find and in forty five years I have never had a hay belly- I feed ad lib hay and have never paid any attention to how rough or leafy it is- I do pay attention to quality, but sometimes you have to take what you get.

I do not like feeding pellets instead of roughage- although they do supply some.

Rabbit is now on pellets (soaked) only and it takes a huge amount to equal the amount of hay he was eating when he could do so.

IMO foals are best off having ad lib hay, quite literally, and allowing their gut to mature, as I have seen real problems with diarrhoea and related problems from an immature gut.

I think your first port of call should be to sort out the possible worm problem and then address the feed if there is still a problem.

 

[Latika]

I am by all means not a nutritional expert! but i will just say...

for many many years, i have had my big horses on a stable BASIC diet, and they have all maintained a good weight (being that majority were naturally good do'er's

) and have been healthy for competition.

My pet hate is premix diets. All these new products... buying horse feed has become much more like buying your new cosmetic range!

Maplegum - I have sent you a PM

hope it helps!

 

[Jill]

I don't deny that many others have more years of experience in miniatures than I do. There's also a learning curve and when I give advice about something, it isn't something I'm thinking out loud about but something in which I feel confident to give advice. I'd put my advice up against some people with far longer experience but not the same level of results. I can only say what has worked for me. People can look at my horses and results, then draw their own conclusions as to how much worth there may be in my words. I can tell you also that I've seen some fabulously fit horses fed much differently than I feed my own. So, what works for my horses may not work as well for theirs. I just know what's worked for me and that I consistently receive compliments on how "good" my horses look

:

 

[Danielle_E.]

The amount of feed you are giving him in volume is quite minimal :new_shocked: and the grain type feed is VERY high in protein. As others have used the analogy before a starving child has a big belly and it certainly doesn't mean he is "fat". Is there someone you can speak to at the feed store and get some recommendations. Always feed by weight never by volume. What he was fed a month ago may not be adequate now because he has grown. You have to increase the feed as they grow. Good luck and keep us posted and yes it certainly wouldn't hurt him to deworm him as well :saludando:

 

[maplegum]

Just an update on Bailey's hay belly.

I have been slowly changing his diet over to something which I believe is a better feed after reading your replies.

Here's the breakdown:

ENERGY (DE) (MJ/kg) 13.5

PROTEIN 16%

FAT 10.5%

FIBRE 8%

He is also getting what you could almost call 'free choice' hay and lucerne.

I've started him on speedi - beet too.

It has completely changed his bowel movements even though I am introducing this feed slowly. It all looks healthy though. It's MUCH heavier. Previously, his poo didn't 'stick' together, it was little nuggets.

He is enjoying his new feed, finally! He took a while to adjust, must be the texture. He was a PIG for the 1st couple of days with all this hay there. Now he understands that he doesn't have to eat it all in one go.

I'm going to be speaking with my vet regarding worming and whats best for our area. I looked into the '5 day' purge as suggested but I'll never use that much wormer !!! It comes in a BIG bottle!

I'll let you know how he goes. I'm thinking it will take a couple of weeks to see a difference.

Edited to add that he is now being fed 2 cups of his mixed feed and one cup of speedi-beet and one cup of chaff, twice a day, along with his hay. This has doubled his intake. I have also weighed ALL of his feeds to make sure he is getting the recommended amount. I'm sticking with 2% of his body weight at the moment, will adjust if needed.