Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
No, you have a boarding contract and they are providing a service. If you stopped paying, yes, they could take your horses and sell them if they wish.
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No, you have a boarding contract and they are providing a service. If you stopped paying, yes, they could take your horses and sell them if they wish.
targetsmom
Well-Known Member
That was actually how we got my very first horse back in 1960, but I bet things are still the same. People moved away and didn't pay the board, so the boarding stable sold the mare and we bought her. They were very up-front about it.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Yup. Its called a Horsemen's Lein. You still have to go through the courts, but its easy to do.
Katiean
Well-Known Member
you do not always have a boarding contract. I boarded across the street from me for about 10 years. There was no contract. So you are telling me that because the horses were on the other peoples property with no contract, they could have taken them from me at any time saying they were their horses? I do not think so. It isn't that way in CA, NV or UT. If there is a dispute about the rightful owner, they belong to the person with the papers or proof that they are theirs. I do believe the only way a partially paid for horse dispute is settled is in court. But, if you went armed with the papers (with pictures on the back) showing they were your horses you could get them back. We even had 3 horses stolen from that pasture with a fence ripped out. I found who had my horses (they took them about 20 miles away). They said I could have them back if I bought a horse trailer (didn't have one). I told them if my horses were not back by nightfall, the sheriff would be calling. I got them back. That was in CA. Here in Nevada you have to have the brand inspector out to prove that they are your horses. So, if my horses are on your property and I want them back. I have the papers and I bring the brand inspector to verrify they are my horses. I think if I were in a state that said possession was the law, I think I would move.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Papers don't mean anything, unfortunately. Bill of sale, yes. But registration doesn't mean anything.
Katiean
Well-Known Member
That is not how it is out west. Maybe you guys need better laws.
valshingle
Well-Known Member
Certain states are Brand states (CO, NV, etc) but most are not. A Horseman's Lien is used by a boarding stable IF they have you sign a boarding contract.
Basically, whatever the situation - have a good legal contract to help address all these situations.
I personally would like to thank all the people who have let me buy horses on payments over the years - some even from out of state. I always give references of previous sellers when asking if I can make payments. I've never been late and usually pay the horse off early. So thanks - you know who you are
Basically, whatever the situation - have a good legal contract to help address all these situations.
I personally would like to thank all the people who have let me buy horses on payments over the years - some even from out of state. I always give references of previous sellers when asking if I can make payments. I've never been late and usually pay the horse off early. So thanks - you know who you are
Katiean
Well-Known Member
If you are boarding a horse or two at John Doe's house down the road, more times than not, you do not have a contract. IDK, when you boarding at "Just someones house" you do not necessarily have a contract. I know, it is kind of dumb. However, most people keeping a horse down the street, do not think of a contract. So I am saying NO contract and the person decides he wants the horses he is boarding for someone else, He can keep them because they are on their property?
I know this is off topic but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I guess I better stay in a Brand inspector state.
I know this is off topic but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I guess I better stay in a Brand inspector state.
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
Even in brand states, registration papers still mean nothing. The breed organization does not have any legal authority to proclaim ownership. They just manage their own breed records and members. They can kick offenders out of their shows and their registry, they can deny horses papers, they can kick horses out of the breed. But they can not manage ownership! In brand states, all that matters is that bill of sale (I have two sitting in my safe, I bought them in CO). But there is an issue with that. The bill of sale is not a contract (well, it is, but read on). If I sell a horse in the state of Colorado, I have to provide MY bill of sale certificate to the brand inspector proving that I have authority to sell said horse. So, if I sell a horse on payments, to another CO resident, I have to go to the horse's new home and sign off on the sale to the inspector. If I sell the horse out of state, NOBODY CARES. Colorado will not pursue the horse, its not in their jurisdiction. The other state won't care, because it was sold out of state. And if I did want to get a brand inspection bill of sale, I'd have to bring the horse BACK to my house, have it inspected, then send it back to the state where it was purchased. Who would do that?!
Moral of the story. Don't let a horse out of sight until its paid for!!
And you're just silly if you board ANYWHERE without a contract. Just plain ol silly. Yes, 90% of the time everything will be hunky doory. But when you have an issue you have NOTHING to stand on.
Moral of the story. Don't let a horse out of sight until its paid for!!
And you're just silly if you board ANYWHERE without a contract. Just plain ol silly. Yes, 90% of the time everything will be hunky doory. But when you have an issue you have NOTHING to stand on.
Katiean
Well-Known Member
Nathan, I know you "think" you are totally right. But you are NOT! What I am saying about the papers is not to get the registry involved, but to prove that this is infact the horse in question. I have 1 mare that on her temporary were her foal pictures. You could still tell that it was THAT horse and she has no white marks. When you say registration papers mean nothing, you are wrong. It is proof of ownership. What about the horses that you breed and do not have a bill of sale on? Then what you have is the registration with the discription of the horse and PICTURES. So, if you have a time pay contract, record of payments that were or were not made, and the registration papers. You have proof that the horses in question are infact still yours and you have the right to recover them. End of subject.
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StarRidgeAcres
Guest
Here's my thought on the papers...
They are not a bill of sale, I get that. And the registries probably aren't going to get into the middle of a legal battle over ownership, but having those papers in hand does give me some leverage. I can contact them, as in this case, and make them aware that no work orders should be executed without contacting me, and includes transfers. They are great documents for describing the horse...pictures, dob, height, sex, markings, etc. They show a chain of custody in many cases with the list of owners.
And in my case, having the papers, the buyer having no bill of sale, me having a signed contract stating the papers stay in my possession until paid in full...it all adds to the clarity of my case should I need to go to court. The sheriff was sure interested in seeing who had them in hand - me or the buyer. In this case, me!
They are not a bill of sale, I get that. And the registries probably aren't going to get into the middle of a legal battle over ownership, but having those papers in hand does give me some leverage. I can contact them, as in this case, and make them aware that no work orders should be executed without contacting me, and includes transfers. They are great documents for describing the horse...pictures, dob, height, sex, markings, etc. They show a chain of custody in many cases with the list of owners.
And in my case, having the papers, the buyer having no bill of sale, me having a signed contract stating the papers stay in my possession until paid in full...it all adds to the clarity of my case should I need to go to court. The sheriff was sure interested in seeing who had them in hand - me or the buyer. In this case, me!
Nathan Luszcz
Well-Known Member
What if I buy a horse from you, and don't transfer papers? Does that mean you still own it?
Or in my case, I didn't register my mini with the WCMHA, I registered him with the PtHA. Does that mean that the person who did register him originally with the WCMHA still owns him? Or, what if I stole him, and hardshipped him into AMHA or PtHA, does that mean because I have papers he's automatically mine?
Or in my case, I didn't register my mini with the WCMHA, I registered him with the PtHA. Does that mean that the person who did register him originally with the WCMHA still owns him? Or, what if I stole him, and hardshipped him into AMHA or PtHA, does that mean because I have papers he's automatically mine?
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Carolyn R
Well-Known Member
Parmela, you are doing a good job putting this info together. I don't think any one of these factors could stand on its own, but between the emails, the contract, the papers, it starts to paint a picture. There is no reason to needlessly get yourself frustrated by playing the Devil's Advocate of "what ifs". (heck, life is full of what ifs, like What if, God forbid, you go to pick them up and the BIG GUY says its your turn. Life is funny like that, you just never know what is going to happen.)
Meeting with the authorities, with info in hand, and possibly going to the farm with the authorities may be enough to end things peaceably.
Point being, all you can do is take it step by step, document things, and approach it with a rational mind set, which you are already doing.
Meeting with the authorities, with info in hand, and possibly going to the farm with the authorities may be enough to end things peaceably.
Point being, all you can do is take it step by step, document things, and approach it with a rational mind set, which you are already doing.
Reble
Well-Known Member
I agree with Carolyn R, go with the authorities and see what happens, court can be a long drawn or deal.
Good Luck and keep us posted.
Have as much info as possible to show them.
I am going through the same thing with a "friend" of mine. We had an agreement that I would buy the horse and she would buy it from me. That was September. The horses Bill of Sale and papers are in my name. She has since gone off the deep end and doesn't consider me a friend anymore. I sent her a letter saying that she had until the 1st of July to pay in full or "legal action will be taken to return the horse to it's legal owner". Nothing thus far. Getting anxious!
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StarRidgeAcres
Guest
So sorry you are going through this too. I hope the best for you. Are the horses at her farm and is it far away?
I the 3 months since I posted I have received $125 total from my person. So that's $125 since November of 2010. Toward 3 horses! I have made her send pictures of the horses with a sign stating the date so I could see their condition. They look fed and trimmed so that was relieving.
my situation is not exactly the same but I did sell a horse to a friend (ha!) on payments , she paid nothing for the first year less than a hundred euro in the second year and nothing since , its 3 yrs ago now , she never answers emails or phone calls and completely blanks me , Ive done nothing wrong , I have been completely polite and civil to her when Ive asked for payment (and that has been hard for me to keep my mouth shut) but she acts like Im the bad guy !
Please everyone, make sure you get ALL money up front. We have come across a couple of people the past few years who make a down payment, ask the owners if they can take the horse and make payments and then the person is never heard from again. It's an awful situation to be in.
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