Driving Problem

[Kathy2m]

When we are at home I can't seem to get much impulsion from Abby. When I go into the woods or somewhere new I can get a nice strong trot,(not unusual I know)

but not at home, I know because its all familiar to her but how do I get a nice working trot, without using the whip all the time? Or is that not possible? If I could get on her back I'd hook her good with my lower leg and push her up. I can lunge her and get a better trot, but because of her stifle the vet would prefer that I not keep her in a circle. Even though we are in training level, I know there will be a time I have to put her on the bit and it won't be possible with this lack of impulsion. I have a very soft bit on her a french link snaffle. I have seen quite a few minis already on the bit in training level. I was taught in ridden dressage impulsion first, then collection. HELP Any ideas? Thanks, Kathy

 

[BannerBrat]

[SIZE=12pt]Okay here's my idea.[/SIZE]

[[keep in mind I'm not expirienced.

]]

My gelding is similar but at a walk. What helped with him was to do a lot of transitions, & keep it very interesting. It was my Mom's idea, & it really helped Banner a lot. Surprisingly enough Banner doesn't like 'ring work' that much hitched, he likes it a lot longlining.

But there's my idea.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Ashley's got it right- you need lots of soft, yielding transition work to get her interest and encourage her to start getting that hind end up underneath her and engaged. I've got an awesome book called "A Horseman's Notes" by Erik Herbermann and I found the following paragraphs very illuminating:

4.24 Useful forward urgency in the horse must be awakened through tactful driving. Indiscreet whacking or spurring only results in tension - a response based on fear or resentment instead of understanding.

4.25 How can we best maintain an adequate level of energy in horses without having to drive them constantly? The answer lies in delegating. To delegate we must have a clear purpose in mind, decinding exactly how much forward energy we want, and converting that into balance through the half-halt principle. If we lack clarity, consistency, or resolve, or are asleep at the switch half the time, we will not succeed. While keeping good position attitudes in mind, we must engage our seat and effectively use our legs (backed up by the stick or spur if necessary) to animate the horse, and literally bring him up to a forward energy level of, let us say, 8, on a scale from 1 to 10. We absolutely must show the horse exactly what we mean by that 8. Then, other than providing a small shadow aid ["a small, passive, maintaining influence, an encouraging presence which helps the horse to know that he was good to respond to our last aid, and that he should continue to do that..."] we must leave the horse alone, that is, until his energy level drops below 7, at which time we must remind him of his task by saying, "Hey, down there, come on, you get back up to 8," and then leave him alone again. If we are consistent, the horses will begin to recognize that they are left alone as long as they maintain their energy level between 7 and 8. And because horses love to be left alone by the rider, they will begin to seek out that quiet place on their own, where we continue to encourage them with the gentle shadow aid and praise them for their wonderful contribution. Needless to say, the principle of delegating applies to all aiding concepts. It gives horses the space to figure things out for themselves, the confidence to act, and nurtures their desire to contribute."

Now obviously that is meant for ridden dressage but the exact same principle is directly applicable to driving. The one ironclad rule my driven dressage trainer gave me when I started with her was that every time I asked for something the horse had to at least try. When he was green he didn't have to give me more than a step or two of "forward" when I asked him to move on, but he had to make an effort or the command would be calmly repeated and promptly reinforced with a flick of the whip. "Trot on" means "increase impulsion" in her barn, not "keep lazing along"!

All I did was follow that basic principle and as my horse gained strength and experience he started holding that impulsion for longer and longer between signals. Of course I praised the heck out of him for that! Now he's at the point which Mr. Herbermann describes where all I generally have to do is set him a pace and he'll hold it until I ask for a different one or outside factors influence him (like a hill or water or something.)

So lots of soft transition work, be consistent in your use of forward signals and praise her strongly when she does it right. She'll get there!

Leia

 

[Kathy2m]

Got ya, I learned a long, long, time ago not to pick at a horse, give clear and direct cues, picking at them just ticks them off.

She is GREAT on her transition's, up and down, she starts off forward but after a few strides slows back down.

So how long did you let Cody stay in a slow trot, before you asked him move on again?

I'll try adding more transitions and see what we get, Thanks, Kathy

 

[hobbyhorse23]

She is GREAT on her transition's, up and down, she starts off forward but after a few strides slows back down.

So you catch her before that stride quality starts to fade and ask her for something else. Ask for a trot, praise her through the good strides and just before you know she's going to slow down on her own ask her for a walk transition. That way A) it's your idea, B) you can stay positive by praising her for the good transition instead of getting after her for slowing down, C) it gets her attention focused on you because you've done something she didn't expect, and D) you've rewarded her for a good trot. Hold her at a marching walk for a few strides then back to the trot again. She's smart; it won't take her long to begin to experiment with holding that good trot just a little longer each time to see if you'll reward her with a walk again. If you're consistent she'll soon be holding that good trot for as long as she can. Besides, once they start thinking they forget to be lazy!

Throw in some circles and other figures to liven it up when she's getting more consistent and keep your arena sessions short for now, always ending with a trail drive at a pace she enjoys.

So how long did you let Cody stay in a slow trot, before you asked him move on again?

I wanted to set him up to succeed so when he wasn't fit enough/trained enough to hold it for long I always asked him to do something else before he could get bored or frustrated. We developed our working trot out on the trails where he was happy to do it and then the arena work was merely a matter of teaching him to give me that same pace in an enclosed area. Since I didn't ask until he KNEW what I was asking for, every time he'd fade after a few strides I'd get after him until he'd gone past that sticking point without fading then I'd pull him up as a reward. Quality is far more important than quantity- if they're doing it right, quit! Pushing for that One Extra Stride is asking for trouble in a youngster.

Leia

Heh, had to add: It's funny when they get to the point that you can use a walk transition as a negative reinforcer rather than a positive one! The footing at the Beavercreek CDE was really bad and I hadn't driven Kody for weeks so I wanted to get him thoroughly supple before I let him trot out. We did bending exercises and leg yields and shortening/lengthenings at a nice calm walk for about 25 minutes but when I finally let him trot he got fired up again and tried to take off. I reined him in and made him do the boring exercises at a walk for another five minutes. This time when I asked for trot he behaved for about three strides then took off again and again we walked. After another twenty minutes of frequent walk transitions every time he got too forward he finally figured out maybe it was better to hold a nice rhythmic working trot! Silly horse.

 

[whitney]

hobbyhorse:

condense please...........................

What would your actual commands consist of.

My instructors, (I was riding an experienced western pleasure mare and converting her to a dressage horse) direction was this.....................

1. Ask nicely (close leg) wait a few seconds if nothing

2. Ask FIRMLY (close leg and heel) wait a few seconds if nothing

3. ATTACK (use everything at your disposal)

Do it this way EVERYTIME, attack was only necessary twice with my mare.

I kinda think this is like parents you hear in the mall: Johnny come here, Johnny come here, oh Johnny...... kid is 1/2 way down the mall and not listening at all. However my instructor would be Johnny come here, Johnny come here NOW, Parent grabs Johnny and tethers Johnny to them.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hmm, I appear to be taking over the thread again.

Isn't anyone else going to contribute??

hobbyhorse:
condense please...........................

What would your actual commands consist of.

My instructors, (I was riding an experienced western pleasure mare and converting her to a dressage horse) direction was this.....................

1. Ask nicely (close leg) wait a few seconds if nothing

2. Ask FIRMLY (close leg and heel) wait a few seconds if nothing

3. ATTACK (use everything at your disposal)

Do it this way EVERYTIME, attack was only necessary twice with my mare.

I kinda think this is like parents you hear in the mall: Johnny come here, Johnny come here, oh Johnny...... kid is 1/2 way down the mall and not listening at all. However my instructor would be Johnny come here, Johnny come here NOW, Parent grabs Johnny and tethers Johnny to them.

Heh, good example with Johnny. Mine would be (pleasant voice): "Johnny, come here please." (Sterner voice): "Johnny, I asked you to come here; come here now or you're going to lose Privilege A." (Wrath of God Voice): "Johnny, that's it, you've lost Privilege A. Now come here before I do {name something realistic but drastic}!"

Okay, so short sequence if I ask a horse for the trot and they do it but lose impulsion and start dwaddling shortly afterwards:

-Collect reins, say horse's name, ask horse to trot.

-Praise horse for trotting off promptly.

-Maintain contact on the reins.

-Horse starts to die off. Half halt, say "Trot on" and flick lightly with whip. (Horse has already been asked, this is second reminder.)

-If horse springs forward or otherwise resumes pace, praise. If he doesn't listen, get Voice of Iron, repeat name and say "TROT ON!" After half moment to respond, get after horse briskly with whip using the lash, not stock.

I've never had that not work for at least a moment (allowing you to praise and deescalate) but if somehow it didn't, I'd probably halt the horse and back him up a bit then immediately put him back to a trot. THIS DOES NOT APPLY IF THERE'S ANY POSSIBILITY THE HORSE IS SORE OR CONFUSED!! The horse must know what his job is and be physically able to do it. The absolute right thing to do in that case is get out of the cart and take the horse back to basics on the longe and long lines.

Back to the sequence:

-Once horse has responded to second correction and trotted out for a few more strides without stopping I will ask him for a walk and praise.

-Stop there and go on to something else if it's clear he's frustrated or you're in any danger of losing your temper.

-If horse is only green and seems to be getting the idea, ask him for another trot in a few minutes and praise liberally if he starts right out and goes strongly past the point he first slowed. Don't ask him/her to keep going but instead ask them to walk before it goes south. Praise and move on to something else for awhile.

This procedure eventually becomes how you ask for a lengthened trot instead of a working trot and the same aids and sequence apply to asking for a more forward walk as well. Ask-Tell-Consequence.

Leia

 

[Kathy2m]

I worked Abby tonight with all your suggestions, and even though we only got to work 20 minutes (we got chased in with a storm), we had a very productive work out, much better trot, and GREAT transitions. Thanks, Kathy

 

[mondak]

Does your mare canter? I have that problem with Koda when he gets bored and we start skipping gaits...I.E. walk to canter and trot to halt or vis versa. My personal favorite that I learned from my dressage coach at school is to walk three trot three, that is walk three strides trot three strides. This has two benefits: One is that is strenghtens that transition and two is that is gets them thinking thus gets them engaged. A horse that is bored is comfortable on their forehand because they do not feel a need to move it out of the way for their hindend. If the horse is thinking and listening to your aids, they are on constant alert for the next movement therefore they need that front end lifted in order to obey transition cues, turning cues, or (in your case) lenghtening cues or forward cues.

Courtney

P.S. if she knows turn on the hindend, try troting a line then pivoting around and trot the same line going the other way, that will wake her up!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

That's great Kathy, congrats!

Leia

 

[Kathy2m]

Does your mare canter? Courtney

I havent done a lot of canter work with her, we are in training level and no cantering allowed. I do it sometimes just for a change of pace and out on the trails.

Looking back on my training with her, I think I got so wrapped up in getting her fit for the marathon phase with long trotting sessions, I overlooked the quality of her trot until now.

 

[Sanny]

You've already gotten excellent, very detailed advice for productive schooling and training work and the only thing I would like to add is I would suggest taking a break from the "schoolwork" and find some fun and interesting places to drive where your horse will feel like it is just for "fun" and not "work" and you will be able to ask for the transitions, collection, impulsion, etc. everything you want to work on and will probably get what you are looking for and even more out of the horse without the horse even thinking about it or thinking he is even "working".

Trail driving is great, when you can do it, especially with a horse that is getting bored in the ring or just gets really lazy doing ring work. Think about children learning science from a textbook sitting at a desk inside versus going in the woods and river on nature walks to learn the exact same things. They have more fun and don't feel like they are working and they love it especially if they were totally bored with the schoolwork. Leia really knows her driving and gave you some great advice for technical work but she gets a lot out of her horse and is successful in part because she is always doing something new and different and all sorts of exercises and competing in CDE's so her horse is always thinking and alert and on his toes and listening for the next command because he never knows what might be next. I wish we had CDE or similar events in our area.

EDIT TO ADD: You must have posted again right when I was posting, it sounds like you are training for CDE and already doing a lot of trail driving so you already have all the bases covered. In that case I don't have any other sugggestions that would be helpful. One thought that did come to mind is that it may just be the personality of your horse because it certainly sounds like you know what you are doing. I know all of our horses that are old enough drive and I do know I've got a wide range of horses from horses that are always energetic and ready to go and are great about gait changes and impulsion and are always giving 110% effort with very little encouragement needed and then I have a couple of horses way over on the other end of the spectrum that are well-behaved and listen to cues but are just not self-motivated and need a lot of interaction and encouragement to keep moving out. (a nice way of saying I have a couple of sort of lazy horses too)