Kathy2m
Well-Known Member
If you were looking for a driving horse for CDE's and that type of driving, what type of conformation would you be looking for. How important is their behavior and size. Thanks, Kathy
Driving Horse
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I might be looking into getting a mini that would be good to do CDE's with so I think well behaved is really important with a driving horse....big or small.... and I would want something on the bigger side to get me up and down hills easier during the cross country course, as far as confirmation I think a well proportioned horse with straight long legs would be just some of the things I would be looking for.
Here are the things I would look for
big hip
Good length and proportion of neck that ties in on top of the chest (you dont want a low set neck on a driving horse)
Powerful chest
tight throatlatch (has to be able to bend and flex)
Properly placed and sized nostrils on a well proportioned head (to get air in and out efficiently)
Good leg conformation especially knees
Good depth of barrell as this where the lungs are
Strong Croup
Willingness to learn and low spook factor
Kay
big hip
Good length and proportion of neck that ties in on top of the chest (you dont want a low set neck on a driving horse)
Powerful chest
tight throatlatch (has to be able to bend and flex)
Properly placed and sized nostrils on a well proportioned head (to get air in and out efficiently)
Good leg conformation especially knees
Good depth of barrell as this where the lungs are
Strong Croup
Willingness to learn and low spook factor
Kay
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Kathy2m
Well-Known Member
Is length of back important? Short coupled or longer in the back?
Kim~Crayonboxminiatures
Well-Known Member
Can you post a photo or photos of the conformation you are talking about? I'm a visual learner!
I think this is the direction my breeding program is headed, so I'm starting to do more research.
I would refer you over to the lightening thread on the forum. That is a horse that is almost exactly what I am describing and a horse that can do it all and do it well. Halter, performance, driving etc. To me he is such a great example! Im hoping to get Feature trained this fall for driving. Heres a not very good picture of Feature but you can see he has all those things I talked about above. Now the real truth will come out with training but he looks like a good prospect to me.
This pic shows his throat latch better and the barrell as hes more in shape in this one (i have been working to get the extra weight off him since I got him home)
This pic shows his throat latch better and the barrell as hes more in shape in this one (i have been working to get the extra weight off him since I got him home)
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ClickMini
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Well, I think I have a pretty good CDE horse. This is her:
Ally is a big, powerful mare, she measures approx. 36.5 - 37" for AMHR, and she weighs about 320 when she is fit. What I like best about her is her deep heartgirth, her powerful hindquarters. What I like least about her is her should angle and I would like a little more length on her neck. Her legs are absolutely correct. I think she is a good guideline for what I would want in a breeding mare for CDE type.
Ally is a big, powerful mare, she measures approx. 36.5 - 37" for AMHR, and she weighs about 320 when she is fit. What I like best about her is her deep heartgirth, her powerful hindquarters. What I like least about her is her should angle and I would like a little more length on her neck. Her legs are absolutely correct. I think she is a good guideline for what I would want in a breeding mare for CDE type.
Kathy2m
Well-Known Member
Clickmini, She is a beautiful mare, you are lucky. I'm having such a hard time finding that size without breaking the bank. Kathy
hobbyhorse23
Well-Known Member
The HIP!! So much of the horse's power comes from the hip and when they have a weak one (like Kody) it can really affect them. I don't care if they have a high tail set or level topline in the rear (in fact a truly flat croup is bad for allowing the horse to get up under themselves) but I want a good solid motor back there with lots of width through the gaskins and good solid stifles. I don't mind a slight case of cowhocks but under no circumstances would want a horse who stood bow-legged or vastly sickle-hocked as that's asking for injury and they'll have a lot of trouble traveling in balance.
Moving up the horse....
As has already been said, the ribcage should be well-sprung with a good deep heartgirth for lung room.
The shoulders should be well-laid with good range of motion, allowing the horse to have a scopey, reachy trot. Angulation depends on what kind of mover you like (high and round or long and low) but no matter what the horse should be able to extend and lengthen stride perceptibly. The chest should be broad and strong with clear deliniation between neck and chest to allow the breastcollar to fit most comfortably and provide good pulling power. I actually don't mind a horse with a low-set neck (Kody certainly has one) as long as the neck itself is sound. The problem is that most horses with a low neck set also have thick throatlatches and minimal ability to flex and elevate the root of the neck. If the horse has a mushy lower neck but has sufficient length, a good tie-in to the withers on the top and a very clean throatlatch with the head set on well I'd overlook the lower connection if I otherwise liked the horse.
Head style matters not one bit but the brain inside that skull matters a lot. You need a sensible horse who is both forward and responsive, eager but calm, willing but no push-over. A horse with a good sense of themselves will often become the best competitor if you can learn to work with them instead of against them. They have to want to play this game.
I like a horse who is intelligent and outgoing but has a good work ethic and low spook threshold. You see a lot of freaky things in CDE!
Overall the horse should look balanced and preferably be built uphill with a free forward stride at all three gaits and a natural tendency to use the neck during movement. (I don't want one who puts his head up and holds it there stiffly as he trots around, I want one who USES his neck and does a lot of flexing/turning/bending with it.) I'd like to see my prospect at liberty before purchase and would be looking to see if the horse made all transitions smoothly and changed directions easily by tucking his or her hindquarters under himself and sitting down/back. I want a horse who is agile enough to dance around trees and stop/start abruptly and in balance, not one who looks like he's going to plow into things because he can't arrest his momentum.
Finding a good prospect is a balancing act though. You know all those things I said above? Well, when I first bought my champion soon-to-be Intermediate CDE horse he couldn't do almost any of those things I mentioned. Turn him loose in a paddock and sure he'd use his neck but he had no clue how to change directions and couldn't even gallop properly, instead doing a sort of bunny-hop or flat-to-the-ground greyhound run with each set of legs moving together like a windup toy. He's got a low neckset, incredibly weak hip with locking stifles, cowhocks and camps out a little back there too. But what he had going for him was HEART. That little horse is the smartest, most natural driving horse I've ever met. Nothing spooks him, he'll go through heck and high water if I ask him to, he likes dressage and LOVES marathon and cones. He thinks about everything. On the plus side physically he's built uphill with good length of leg, long flexible pasterns and neck, prominent withers and a natural tendency to elevate his forehand. With a lot of long careful training, some chiropractic work and surgery to fix those locking stifles most of his worst physical flaws have been either corrected or compensated for. If you love the horse enough to take the time to work with them, many things that might otherwise make the horse a poor prospect can be overcome.
Still, the more things you have stacked on your side to begin with, the easier the training will be for both you and the horse!
Think "mini Warmblood" and you'll be on the right track.
Leia
Edited to add: Just wanted to share these photos from last weekend. Low neck set or not, proper training can clearly do a lot! Despite his conformation flaws it is rare to find a photo now where Kody is not tracking up with his hind feet.
Moving up the horse....
KayKay is absolutely right that a overly-lengthy back will cause problems, both with strength and with cattiness/agility in turning, but you also don't want one that is too short. An extremely short-coupled horse will be inclined to step on themselves and may not have the flexibility to bend comfortably and reach softly for the bit in dressage. A medium-length, nicely coupled back with a strong loin and fairly prominent withers would be best. On many horses a good loin can compensate for other flaws in the back but a bad loin should rule them out regardless of length of spine. The loin is the transmission- if it's weak, it doesn't matter how much power they have in the rear. They can't get it forwards!Kathy2m said:
As has already been said, the ribcage should be well-sprung with a good deep heartgirth for lung room.
The shoulders should be well-laid with good range of motion, allowing the horse to have a scopey, reachy trot. Angulation depends on what kind of mover you like (high and round or long and low) but no matter what the horse should be able to extend and lengthen stride perceptibly. The chest should be broad and strong with clear deliniation between neck and chest to allow the breastcollar to fit most comfortably and provide good pulling power. I actually don't mind a horse with a low-set neck (Kody certainly has one) as long as the neck itself is sound. The problem is that most horses with a low neck set also have thick throatlatches and minimal ability to flex and elevate the root of the neck. If the horse has a mushy lower neck but has sufficient length, a good tie-in to the withers on the top and a very clean throatlatch with the head set on well I'd overlook the lower connection if I otherwise liked the horse.
Head style matters not one bit but the brain inside that skull matters a lot. You need a sensible horse who is both forward and responsive, eager but calm, willing but no push-over. A horse with a good sense of themselves will often become the best competitor if you can learn to work with them instead of against them. They have to want to play this game.
Overall the horse should look balanced and preferably be built uphill with a free forward stride at all three gaits and a natural tendency to use the neck during movement. (I don't want one who puts his head up and holds it there stiffly as he trots around, I want one who USES his neck and does a lot of flexing/turning/bending with it.) I'd like to see my prospect at liberty before purchase and would be looking to see if the horse made all transitions smoothly and changed directions easily by tucking his or her hindquarters under himself and sitting down/back. I want a horse who is agile enough to dance around trees and stop/start abruptly and in balance, not one who looks like he's going to plow into things because he can't arrest his momentum.
Finding a good prospect is a balancing act though. You know all those things I said above? Well, when I first bought my champion soon-to-be Intermediate CDE horse he couldn't do almost any of those things I mentioned. Turn him loose in a paddock and sure he'd use his neck but he had no clue how to change directions and couldn't even gallop properly, instead doing a sort of bunny-hop or flat-to-the-ground greyhound run with each set of legs moving together like a windup toy. He's got a low neckset, incredibly weak hip with locking stifles, cowhocks and camps out a little back there too. But what he had going for him was HEART. That little horse is the smartest, most natural driving horse I've ever met. Nothing spooks him, he'll go through heck and high water if I ask him to, he likes dressage and LOVES marathon and cones. He thinks about everything. On the plus side physically he's built uphill with good length of leg, long flexible pasterns and neck, prominent withers and a natural tendency to elevate his forehand. With a lot of long careful training, some chiropractic work and surgery to fix those locking stifles most of his worst physical flaws have been either corrected or compensated for. If you love the horse enough to take the time to work with them, many things that might otherwise make the horse a poor prospect can be overcome.
Still, the more things you have stacked on your side to begin with, the easier the training will be for both you and the horse!
Think "mini Warmblood" and you'll be on the right track.
Leia
Edited to add: Just wanted to share these photos from last weekend. Low neck set or not, proper training can clearly do a lot! Despite his conformation flaws it is rare to find a photo now where Kody is not tracking up with his hind feet.
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mondak
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Here is my driving horse. I get alot of compliments from other ADS people at events. He has a nice hip but is croup high making it hard for him to "load" his hindend and do any really advanced dressage, but he can boogie through a cones course!!!
Matt73
Well-Known Member
I would refer you over to the lightening thread on the forum. That is a horse that is almost exactly what I am describing and a horse that can do it all and do it well. Halter, performance, driving etc. To me he is such a great example! Im hoping to get Feature trained this fall for driving. Heres a not very good picture of Feature but you can see he has all those things I talked about above. Now the real truth will come out with training but he looks like a good prospect to me.
This pic shows his throat latch better and the barrell as hes more in shape in this one (i have been working to get the extra weight off him since I got him home)
targetsmom
Well-Known Member
I think Leia has described my ideal horse - of any size - except of course I would have to add pinto color and a pretty head. I think you would find that if you used her criteria, you would end up with a horse that could do almost any type of performance event - driving plus halter obstacle, hunter, jumper, and maybe liberty. And it probably would do well in halter too except perhaps at the very highest levels of competition.
I especially agree with Leia about what she looks for in movement and not having the head sticking up in the air! And what is inside that head is very important for everything, not just driving.
I especially agree with Leia about what she looks for in movement and not having the head sticking up in the air! And what is inside that head is very important for everything, not just driving.
Thanks Matt!! But he was very overweight when I brought him home mostly because he was just beind idle (not breeding not working) Hes almost where I want him now but needs more muscle toning. (so do i LOL)
susanne
dB
Speaking of mini warmbloods -- any guesses who my ideal driving horse would be?
Other than being just a tad butt-high, I'd say he pretty much fits the bill.
He is still as green as could be...over the bit, on the forehand, etc., but he's off to a great start nonetheless. Of course, he suffers from quite a handicap -- dorky owners.
One thought for those who like the big Bs and are interested in CDE -- remember that ADS measures at the withers, and it seems that many of the bigger minis have prominent withers, so it is very possible to measure in as a mini but be too tall for a VSE. Mingus will most likely need to enter CDEs as a pony. Not that I'd trade him in, however!
Other than being just a tad butt-high, I'd say he pretty much fits the bill.
He is still as green as could be...over the bit, on the forehand, etc., but he's off to a great start nonetheless. Of course, he suffers from quite a handicap -- dorky owners.
One thought for those who like the big Bs and are interested in CDE -- remember that ADS measures at the withers, and it seems that many of the bigger minis have prominent withers, so it is very possible to measure in as a mini but be too tall for a VSE. Mingus will most likely need to enter CDEs as a pony. Not that I'd trade him in, however!
Kathy2m
Well-Known Member
You are so right Abby has VERY little difference between her withers and the last hairs of the mane. She is just over 32 in.
I've been making sure I tell them to measure at the withers before I even go look at them.
Would you buy a yearling that had all the qualities you wanted and hope he works out?
Kathy
Shortpig
Well-Known Member
I am getting ready to send one of two horses for training. These are the best pics I have of them. I don't know if you can really tell by the pics which one would be the better built horse to do CDE. But please I will accept all opinions on this with these two.
First is Koda Bear. He is about 34 1/2" at the last hair which by the way is pretty much the flat of his back.
Next is Duckie she is going to measure really tight at 38" at the withers so might have to go pony in a CDE.
And then there is Ariel who is older and wiser and already a driving horse
Edited to Add:
I just measured Duckie with the stick and she is 37-3/4" at the last hair on the mane. She is just a hair over the 38" mark at the withers. Therefore would have to be a pony in CDE.
First is Koda Bear. He is about 34 1/2" at the last hair which by the way is pretty much the flat of his back.
Next is Duckie she is going to measure really tight at 38" at the withers so might have to go pony in a CDE.
And then there is Ariel who is older and wiser and already a driving horse
Edited to Add:
I just measured Duckie with the stick and she is 37-3/4" at the last hair on the mane. She is just a hair over the 38" mark at the withers. Therefore would have to be a pony in CDE.
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Peggy Porter
Well-Known Member
No, Duckie would still be considered a VSE for ADS driving events and CDEs. The rulebook states 99cm and under (measured at the withers), which is approximately 39". The 38" rule is for AMHR, which measures at the last hair of the mane. I love the long, leggy look of Duckie. She reminds me of my new CDE horse and I think she would look fabulous driving! And your Koda Bear reminds me of my other horse, shorter and stouter with the bushier mane. Both of my boys have competed at CDEs and both would have placed better with a better driver (I really need to take some lessons) !
Sundance Kid (36 3/4" amhr, never measured as VSE):
Butch Cassidy (no AMHR papers, measured 38 1/4" as VSE)
Sundance Kid (36 3/4" amhr, never measured as VSE):
Butch Cassidy (no AMHR papers, measured 38 1/4" as VSE)
Shortpig
Well-Known Member
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Kathy2m
Well-Known Member
The rule reads UNDER 99cm, I just double checked because I'm looking at 2 tomorrow and they are boarderline under 39 in. She doesnt have a official measuring stick so I'm bringing one, Kathy
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