Dead Foals-5 so far!

[ionafarm]

More than 20 years ago, when we were first starting out, we visited Little King Farm. Marianne Eberth told us about a year when they first starte in which they had lost a lot of foals for no apparent reason. What they determined was that the mares kidneys were stressed due to being fed alfalfa, which is very high in protein, and a high protein feed. Perhaps your mares were stressed in this way as well. It might also go along with the thickened placenta. Since your mares were getting more alfalfa this year, particularly in late pregnancy, maybe it was a factor. Just a thought to consider.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

First off my most heartfelt sympathy for your tragic losses, to lose a couple is bad enough but this is testing you to the limit!!

For the record, it is quite possible the foals were dead before birth- that is the most usual cause of the foal coming in the bag, and I am assuming the placentas came too??

Or did they??

In all the years I have been breeding- over 40 now- I have only ever had one foal born alive in the bag.

I have attended a number of births where the foal has been alive right up to a few hours before birth and then the mare has had a technical, almost full term, "abortion" ( I take it that any time the death of the foal precipitates birth it is an abortion, regardless of how close to due dates she is) and the foal has come complete with placenta, in the bag.

As said I have had this happen once, and once only when the foal was still alive.

I do think though we have a potential problem in Minis- I do actually think the idea of the placenta being as thick as a full size horse is correct- and that would obviously make a huge difference.

I don't personally think the alfalfa has anything to do with it- I have never fed alfalfa yet I have had a foal born in the bag.

I do think you should be looking at a toxin based answer- be that fescue/ergot or whatever.

Try not to beat yourself up too badly- I live 7 miles from my horses and I have lost a couple of foals I feel sure I could have saved because of this alone.

 

[HGFarm]

I basicly feed the same feeds every year and have had several born that could not get out of the bag- and one bag I could not even force my thumb through. Thank heavens I had something else handy! Others have been fine and the foals got out ok on their own.

I lost my first foal from not getting out of the sack and vowed it would never happen again. I really feel for you because I STILL beat myself up over it years later. I invested in a Breeder Alert (and yes, you can get multi halter boxes to go with the unit) and it has saved many foals lives so far and also a mare. They are not cheap, but when you figure the price of even losing one foal, they are worth it! I use it with a camera as well and you can actually get a LOT of sleep that way. Foaling season is nerve wracking but I at least no longer look like a heroin addict with black circles under my eyes, snow white skin and babbling nonsense, LOL

I will tell you though, that 320 days is NOT early enough to start monitoring. I had one mare that consistantly went 310 days and a mare this year that was about 3 weeks early!!

:

Is there any way that some of you can watch them in shifts and rotate? Anyone who has a Breeder Alert you could even borrow for the last two? Someone in your area maybe that is done with foaling or between expectant mares??

I hear your frustration and anxiety and wish I could help.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Nice catch, Laurie I missed that!! Yes, totally agree, I would start monitoring at day 300.

 

[lilfolks]

Sorry for all your losses and it must be so heartbreaking. I do think the Breeder Alert and cameras is the best you can do to be assured of a live foal if at all possible. I have 4 Breeder Alerts and 4 cameras so am covered for foaling or illness when they need to be monitored. I have read that not getting out of the sack is the leading death problem in miniature foals. I feel so badly for you.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Oh my you are right HG... I meant to type 300 not 320 actually I coming off a bad foaling experience here and I am very tired and pretty drained I actually have some mares who wear the breeder alerts starting at 290 cause they tend to be 310-315 day mares and they are all in and under camera pretty much from Jan on way before they are due just so I can really know what is normal patterns for them

Thanks for catching my mistake

:

 

[SandyWI]

All the signs you mentioned, such as little or no bag development, no softening of the vulva and thick placentas are CLASSIC signs of fescue toxicity. I've never heard of problems like this associated with alfalfa.

I can imagine you are so very heartbroken! There probably isn't a single one of us who hasn't lost one or more foals. I lost my very first one. But losing 5 like you did has to be emotionally devastating for you. I'm so very sorry!

Do please take other peoples' advice and get some monitoring systems in place so you can attend the births. Two out of our last four foals born could not break the placentas on their own. If we had not been there they would have suffocated. Fortunately, we invested in barn cameras and foal alert pager systems, which go on the mares at 290 days. (Last year I had a mare foal at 286 days, but since her bag was swelling she had her foal alert halter in place and we were there for her).

I know it's difficult during foaling season when you work and have kids and then have to keep waking up all night to check a TV monitor to see if you need to run to the barn when your pager goes off, but get another family member to do it in shifts with you. If you can be there to break those placentas it will make a world of difference.

My mares always foal at day 320 or before, so I get those alarms up early, too!

Please get some alarm systems in place! You really can't go through something this dreadful again! And it's not good for the mares either.

 

[pepperhill]

Thank you so much, all of you, for your kind words, advice, and very good ideas about possible causes. I am going to check into some of the things you mentioned. I know the neighbor next door fertilized heavily this year and someone must have sprayed the ditches as I noticed several weeks ago that some of the weeds are "magically" dying. I am going to do some research on possible chemical causes. I am also going to see what I can find out about alfalfa and kidney damage. We did have to feed more than I usually do because of the prairie hay shortage. All of the ideas are good ones and worthy of some thought and research. Thank you. I feel so much better now that I have some leads to pursue. In the meantime, I have discussed finances with the hubby. We will look into some type of alert system, but will have to wait until we get the new swather payments under control. I feel like I am sitting on pins and needles about my last two mares. I am so nervous that I wake up every hour just to glance over at the camera. One of the mares left to foal I thought had settled and was due the end of March. Obviously I was wrong since that came and went. She is the only one that didn't take when I thought she did. Now, I have no idea when she is due! That makes it so much worse. The other mare looks like she is right on schedule for a late July baby. Maybe I'll have the alerts by then so I won't have to rely on just the cameras. Thanks again everyone. I'll keep you posted if my vet is able to tell me something about the cause.

 

[Sue_C.]

I am so nervous that I wake up every hour just to glance over at the camera.

Basically, that is what I do when my mares are within a week or two of foaling...I set my clock for ewvery hour. It is exhausting for the first few days, but you do get used to it...honest.

If you have hi-speed, and a web-cam ability, why not hire a "mare-stare on-line" to do this for you, or have a friend take over every second night or so? I only have doal-up...or else I certainly would consider it for a few hours a night.

 

[ClickMini]

I have been thinking about your problem, and there is another avenue to investigate. A few years ago, there was a devastating storm of late term abortions in the Thoroughbred breed. Termed MRLS, or Mare Reproductive Loss Syndrome, the problem is traced to tent caterpillars. Here is an archive of information from the University of Kentucky: http://www.ca.uky.edu/gluck/MRLSindex.asp

There has been quite a lot of research done on this as you might imagine, since the primary breed affected at the time was Thoroughbred. Some extremely valuable babies were lost due to this issue.

My heartfelt condolences to you on your terrible losses. I would be beside myself, and I am sure you are too.

 

[pepperhill]

Clickmini, That is a really good site! We have some of those bag caterpillers around so I am going to research that further. Your site also had a good article on fescue toxicity. I have a call in to my vet to see about giving that domperidon to my last two mares.

I have also been thinking about what Rabbitsfizz had to say. It is very possible that these foals might have been born dead. I opened every bag and looked everything over, and frankly, the bags didn't seem that tough. I have been hanging my hat on the fescue idea because some of the symptoms fit so well, but the truth is we just don't know. I'm still researching...........

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Im just curious as I think there is some confusion.. these foals were full term and appeared to be born normal the "bag" or "sac" you are referring to is the white one the foals are born in correct?

or were there 5 red bags meaning the placenta and everything came out at once and you had to tear or cut open the placenta to get to the foal (which would still be in the white sac)

If you had 5 red bags they yes I would say that is not normal and would look for medical explainations.

If you mean the white sac after they have foaled and all else appears normal that really could be more a bad luck kinda thing but never hurts to investage and see what you can come up with

 

[Sun Runner Stables]

I don't mess around with the halter bag things, we use Foal Alert, which is stitched into their vulva. I've never missed a birth since, and I couldn't imagine life with out it, and I've talked almost all of my friends into them. They are expensive, but the sale of one foal should cover the it and all the transmitters you'll need. Worth Every Penny!

I also personally know of many foals that just "didn't get out of the bag". (Meaning the white birth lining, Not the placenta, ie red bag) and there was no health issues, just a monitoring one of the mare.

The lack of signs may indicate something else, I am blessedly Not familiar with any of the other possibilities, however I firmly believe that your presence has been the main factor for their survival.

I'm so sorry for your loss, I know it's hard when you have a life and family, but I'd Strongly encourage you to take a drastically new approach to your foaling system to forgo further heartbreak.

*None of this is meant to be personal or mean, I really Do sympathize, just feel very Strongly about monitoring!*

 

[HGFarm]

LOL Lisa, I figured it was a typo.... I sympathize with those still doing mare stare and all and understand your delirium.

I have never missed a foal with the Breeder Alert and choose not to have something sewn into a mare, just in case. I know a couple of folks who did not have great experiences with those.... I have never used the sewn in kind, so can't give any first hand experience.

I sure hope you figure out what is going on and the last ones get here ok. Keep us posted!