Dead Foals-5 so far!

[pepperhill]

I will give you the facts and outline the situation. What I am looking for is ideas that are "outside the box" for this mess.

I have had my mares a long time and have carefully documented years of information on each one. Last year, armed with my notes and a camera system, I didn't miss a single birth. This year, none of the mares is showing any of their usual signs. The mares are not bagging up as big like in years past. They are not swelling in the vulva area, nothing is right. All mares are kept together, fed the same things etc.

Between April 2nd and today, we have had 7 mares foal. Five have been dead fillies, 2 are live colts. (I do not think the gender is relevant, I think all the fillies being dead is just luck of the draw.) All were born within a day or two of their due dates except one. It was approx. 3 weeks early and looked a bit small. The fillies are just not getting out of the bag. In some of the cases, I am sure the foal was still alive within a few hours of birth because of the kicking. The bag shows no signs of anything strange. The foals are perfect, no signs of deformity. I have been in contact with two different vets and the first thought was that there may have been a rhinovirus infection. This is not the most likely situation because I vaccinate for this, and rhinovirus is most note-worthy for causing abortions. All these foals were full term (except one) The next thought was that they had eaten endophyte-infected tall fescue. Some of the signs for this are lack of bag developement, delayed foaling date, and thickened placenta. The horses do have less bag development than in years past, and apparently, thickened placenta. I feed half grass hay and half alfalfa that we have been putting up ourselves for the past 8 years off of the same fields. I had the hay tested. No fescue. I realize that there could still be some in there somewhere, so we researched the symptoms further. Fescue toxicity leaves the horses system within 60 to 90 days. It just so happens that we ran out of the grass hay early this year and they were on straight alfalfa starting in January, so this doesn't make sense. In case this is our problem, has anyone ever used domperidone to counteract fescue toxicity? Are their any other medications out there that would help? I have two mares left to foal and obviously I am very concerned.

Can anyone suggest anything else that might cause this problem? Both vets have run out of ideas.

Thank-you

 

[alphahorses]

Certainly sounds like fescue toxicity, but I'm not a vet and therefore not qualified to answer that question. But we had a strange year too with none of my mares showing the same signs they did in the past and most not going as long as they usually do. Thank God for cameras and foal alerts!

But clarify please... are you not there when your mares foal? You said the foals are just not getting out of the sack which implies that no one is there when the foals are born to tear the sack open if necessary. (Doesn't get to the root of the problem of course).

Have you had a necropsy done on any of the foals?

edited to correct spelling

 

[Mona]

To me, it sounds like the foals were full gestation, and would have otherwise been healthy foals. Not sure why the mares were not showing all their usual signs, but unfortunately, it sounds like the problem was just with them being born, and not getting out of the sack. This is THE most common cause of loss of foals at birth in the Miniature Horse breed. When they foal unattended, it increases the risk...the sack is the same thickness in a miniature horse as it is in a full sized horse, so such a tiny foal(vs a full sized newborn foal) can have difficulty in breaking the sack upon it's arrival.

I am so sorry for all of your losses. It might be worth your while to invest in a Breeder Alert halter monitor type system to use in conjuction with your new video monitor/camera system. They are expensive to buy, but a wonderful investment that will pay for itself over and over again, in foals lives saved, as well as saved heartache. No, they are not foolproof, but the do GREATLY reduce the risks of loss due to not being there at just the right time as they are being born.

Again, I am very sorry for the tough year you have had.

 

[pepperhill]

No, I was not there. I knew they were due, and watching close, but I wasn't overly concerned yet as they didn't look close enough. I was checking on them every couple of hours or so. When they don't get out it doesn't matter if it is an hour or a minute, it is too late. I started being more observant as more of this occurred, but I never did see any signs at all with a couple of them. These are mares I have foaled out for years so it really caught me by surprise. I had two in one day one time!

Mona, I may have to do that. Frankly, I'm not sure which mare I would have put it on......none of them looked ready. At this point I am really interested in what is causing this! I am aware that this is a common occurance in miniatures and I have been blessed so far in that I have only had it happen one other time. I just can't believe FIVE!

 

[MBhorses]

:no: so sorry for your losses. we will keep you all in our prayers.

 

[Mona]

You can buy several of the little halter boxes...they can be bought separately(I think for about $100-$150 each), and you can run an unlimited number of these off of one unit. I have 4 here. I just start wearing them on my mares a couple weeks to a month before they foal. Yes, I have missed one or 2 births, and thankfully, they turned out OK, but the thing is, when you have one system working with the other, when the beeper goes off, look at your camera monitor and you can see if she is laying down pushing, or sleeping. Also if she gets up and down and up and down showing signs of labour, you will be alerted then also. I have my foaling kit and towels and foal blankets ready to grab on my way out the door. We live in Canada, so is still wintery here when the mares foal, so can't leave it in the barn. Anyway, as soon as I see the mare is in labour and first pushes, I am out the door, and get to the barn before the foal is born. The only time(s) I have missed, is when I accidentally shut the beeper alarm off in the middle of the night and fell back asleep with it in the off position.

 

[Marty]

Were there any red bags?

The next thought was that they had eaten endophyte-infected tall fescue. Some of the signs for this are lack of bag developement, delayed foaling date, and thickened placenta. The horses do have less bag development than in years past, and apparently, thickened placenta.

Yes, this is a sign of fescue toxicity

I think you have a combination of more than one thing:

The thickened placenta, smaller bag development etc. are exactly some of the signs of fescue and I would not rule that out at all. I think that is a major contributing factor as well as you not attending.

I am very sorry for your terrible loss.

Best wishes.

 

[pepperhill]

I know that I might have been able to save them if I had been there! That is what is making this even harder for me. I never missed a single one last year! I have kids and a job and I have to sleep sometime..........but that is just being defensive. I know I should have been there and can't believe I never saw a single one coming! Especially after the first few. I was really watching then!

Now I need info on why this has happened so it never happens again. Does anyone know how fast a stand of fescue can crop up in a field? We have been haying these same fields for years. Why has it never happened before? Are there any illnesses that can cause this kind of thing?

None of them were red bags.

 

[Bess Kelly]

I am so sorry for your losses, and know how heartbreaking this is for a breeder.

Domperidone works, in that it brings in milk.........and helps toxins move out, if they are there. The placenta can still be slightly thicker. In an untreated, endophyte thick placenta, it is actually a rubbery feeling material and very tough, not just "thicker". Been there. (lost 14 one year, endophyte!)

A necropsy on a foal whose mother has been carrying the endophyte toxin will reveal a damaged liver, the organ will be mushy, odd celled, not firm as normal. And the placenta can often reveal more than the foal for problems issues during the necropsy.

All the signs you mention can be caused by endophyte. But, certainly other situations can create similar issues. Have you used heavy fertilizers on their pastures (thus your hay, too)? Chicken manure is often used by some farmers and the high nitrates can cause birthing problems. Changed your grains/concentrates lately? Chemical sprays? Areas with "shouldn't be eating" growth of any kind?

The halter alert monitors will certainly help you in knowing when they lay down. May be your answer to save the last two. To be honest, I have rarely had to rip a bag for a foal. Most tear easily by foal pressure.

 

[Mona]

I know that I might have been able to save them if I had been there! That is what is making this even harder for me. I never missed a single one last year! I have kids and a job and I have to sleep sometime..........but that is just being defensive. I know I should have been there and can't believe I never saw a single one coming! Especially after the first few. I was really watching then!

I hope you don't think/feel like I was "pointing fingers", and blaming you. I really was not. I was only trying to be helpful in offering some information that may help prevent losses in the future is all. I do understand that you need sleep and cannot always be there...many of us can't be, and of course, the systems I mentioned are only good if you happen to be home at the time they deliver anyway. I am sorry if I came across as being mean, because I truely did not mean it that way. :no:

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I am so sorry

I put a breeder alert on my horses when they hit around 320 unless signs show they should be sooner- I am watching them even when they don't look ready for that very reason

There really doesnt have to be a "medical" reason for them not getting out of the bag it really is not all that uncommon for minis to not make it out of the bag

There is also places that do foaling out for you so that might make it easier for you.

 

[mizbeth]

Hi

I too agree with the others. It is imperative that you attend the birth of these foals, they simply do not have the strength and agillity of bigger horses to get out of the sack. Since your mares foaled within days of due date especially.

I am sorry this happened. But it happened to me too the first year of foalling, nobody told me and I had to learn the hard way. Lost three that year and mares I paid good money for "in foal". I did discover the LB Forum after the first year and it has helped me so much learn about these little horses "that are NOT just like the big ones" no matter what anyone tries to tell you when selling them to you or your VET says either.

Good luck, I hope that next year will be a better year for you. YES the breeder alert systmes have saved many many foals for me too. There are lots of good articles on the internet about foaling miniatures, some on this site and also Scott Creek has some good ones.

Each day with miniatures is a new and learning day by the way.

Beth

 

[MInx]

Buck up honey, one can only do their best and you really did your best..try to get past the sadness and any underlying guilt you feel and listen to the advice here you're seeking.

I don't breed at all, would breed one of my mares if I had the proper facilities but I don't and so am not qualified to be dishing out any advice. But I bred Great Dane dogs for years, suffered some tragic unecessary losses, and know of the sadness when things don't go right.

Money might be tight, as one can become "animal poor"

But do try to find some monitors and use them whether they look ready or not. If you know when they were bred go like they said with 320 days or more.

I just got on this post to offer some moral support.

Chin up as they say and move forward and when those last two babies are born we want pictures!

:

Maxine

 

[mmmorgans]

My mares have not shown the typical signs this year either. Plus - most of them have foaled during the day - which is not typical either.

I am very sorry for your loss - it is devastating when things like this happen. I really do think that the only safe way to foal out a mini is to be there - so with Equipage, cams and Marestare.com the mares in labour can be caught. As soon as the mares get close to their due dates (and some of these mares can foal as early as 300 days) they come up into the foaling pen and are being watched.

Again - I am so sorry for you and hope that next year will be different. Do check into Equipage as well as I would highly recommend www.marestare.com.

 

[Margaret]

Sorry about your losses. I myself dont follow the "status quo" when it comes to raising my horses. Some people will think I am silly, but I will tell you something that a large miniature horse breeder told me when I first got into this business.. I knew of a farm in Wisconsin that had alot of miniatures that were foaled out many times unattended, and in their natural environment.. I had to ask the owner about their foal/loss ratio, because most or all of these births seemed and were unattended.

The man told me that they "dont feed alfalfa". " It make the placenta's tough, -and the babies cant get out." He also added that they hardly ever lose a baby, -and they have alot of minis.

These were really nice people and since that conversation, I have opted "not to feed"- my horses alfalfa.

To this day many years later, no foals have been lost here.. Granted I only breed 1 or two mares "of my own" a year..

This year although I had one mare on camera for 2 months. She foaled "unattended"- the one time the camera got shut off.

And the other mare surprised us all,- and foaled two weeks early in the pasture one morning around 4 am - also unattended, with no problems. Both foals got out of the bag with out any help.

I am not advocating unattended births in this post..

However I do feel that by feeding grass hay as opposed to alfalfa, it has increased my odds of having "sucessful" accidental unattended births, that were not planned that way.

I hope this helps.

mary

 

[Carolyn R]

This may be a little off base from the typical line of thought, but has there been any spraying by your county/state that would have come in contact with the hay fields or grazing areas?

It's just a thought. It may not have anything to do with your situation at all.

We raised pheasants at one time, the county had sprayed for gypsy moth catapilers, we had pheasant eggs layed by the dozens that had soft shells. Soft like a balloon, there was no hard covering at all.

Even low dose chemical exposure can do severe things.

At any rate, I am very sorry to hear about your situation. Hang in there, tomorrow is a new day.

Carolyn

 

[bevann]

I have used the Halter Buzzer sold on lilbeginnings.cost is about $50 each and when used with a baby monitor you can hear when mare goes down.Better yet get a camera monitor and turn up the sound.These buzzers worked for me as well as the expensive halter systems.Good luck the rest of this year and next year.I don't feed alfalfa hay&have had some really tough sacks.

 

[Mona]

I just want to say Mary, I am not arguing with your post, but I do feel the need to respond in regards to it, so that this gal does not feel guilty for feeding her mares alfalfa and thinking that is what caused the losses.

I have been feeding alfalfa mix(strongly alfalfa) for all the years I have been rasing minis, and I have yet to have a problem with a foal not getting out of the sac due to that. Yes, I have the systems in place, but I was not fortunate enough to have afforded it my first years. None were lost, and I have also had a couple foal out in pasture unexpectedly over the years, again, none were lost, and also missed a one or two foal in the barn when I accidentally turned my beeper off in the middle of the night and missed the birth.

As for them foaling out in pasture, I too have heard this has shown to be less losses, BUT, I suppose that would be compared maybe to foaling unattended in a well padded stall. The difference is that out in pasture, the ground is harder and the terrain rougher, and more chance of that helping to break the sac from the foal vs the soft, deeply bedded stalls we foal out mares out in. BUT, I think all other things being equal, if the mares were attended when foaling, the losses for either place would be the same.

 

[Margaret]

Believe me Mona, my intention was not to make anyone feel guilty about anything..

The poster was looking for possible answers to her dilemma..And my intention was only to pass on my personal experience, and what someone shared once with me about their personal experience..

Take it or leave it,... But if I was having problems like this- I would want to look at "any and all" possibilities of what may have contributed to the problem, and that is all I am doing.. It was intended for information for the poster to consider.

And I myself would be thankful for all contributions to consider why this might be happening..

 

[Mona]

Mary, my apologies, I guess I worded my post so that it sounded bad towards your intentions...that was not what I meant either. I HATE trying to type things out as I am thinking them...they never "come out" right.

Of course I knew you were not trying to make her feel guilty. I guess that was a very poor choice of words on my part. What I meant was I hope she doesn't try to blame the alfalfa, thinking she is feeding a bad thing to her pregnant mares, as many people use it successfully without it causing these problems. But yes, I do understand where you are coming from, trying to be helpful in offering any possible insights on what may have been the root of this tragedy. So my apologies to you Mary, I know you meant no harm, nor did I.